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How to milk $hroud of the Avatar.

2

Comments

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    Vrika said:

    That's not a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme would mean Portalarium promising that Portalarium pays to owner of those virtual items/accounts in real $.
    Except... they do. 

    They REALLY do.

    They've openly stated they're balancing the rarity of Lot deeds to ensure early backers can make a real profit from them.  They actually removed free tickets from the first Lottery within a day of announcing them, because RMTs complained they'd spent on tickets assuming they could corner the market further.

    They've openly stated they tied the rarity of the Premium Currency to it's current exchange rate to the US dollar in the RMT market.

    They've even got an official authorised trader in Markee Dragon, who goes to their offices in Austin and makes videos with Chris Spears  discussing how to continue rebalancing the economy to keep RMT efficient.

    Shroud's entire "player to player economy" is based upon promising profits to traders in real dollars.

    The problem is that depends upon Shroud having players to trade to... and like Amway and other Ponzi schemes, there's an absolutely obvious break point on the horizon because the numbers just aren't there. Most people will LOSE money on Shroud, especially as it needs central servers to track the items; when they close, you lose all the digital goods and the game itself.

    None of those actions you describe involve Portalarium buying back their own lots at profit to lot owners.

    If they've managed to create a limited collectible (lot deeds) that resells for more than it's purchase value then that's smart business from them. It's not a ponzi scheme unless Portalarium starts buying those back at more than their purchase value.
     
  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 649
    Good news !!  A new BEGothon beginning at 3pm CT on August 7.

    Wow....

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=75252
    Rawyn

    image
  • Aron_SwordmasterAron_Swordmaster Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Vrika said:

    None of those actions you describe involve Portalarium buying back their own lots at profit to lot owners.

    If they've managed to create a limited collectible (lot deeds) that resells for more than it's purchase value then that's smart business from them. It's not a ponzi scheme unless Portalarium starts buying those back at more than their purchase value.
    You don't actually know what a Ponzi Scheme is, do you...?

    Where, anywhere at all in the definition listed does it claim the organisation buys back its own produce at a higher price than it first sold it to its marketers? And how could it possibly work at any level if they did? You'd be effectively just giving people free money, whilst having to manufacture stock for them to just sit on for a while, before claiming back more money than they originally gave you for products they'd have no logical reason to even try selling.

    Your definition is frankly ridiculous. At least educate yourself on what the terms people are using actually mean before trying to lecture them on how they get it wrong. You're not even close to understanding the point.

    So here's the point again:

    The operation of a Ponzi Scheme relies upon income from later backers to reward the earlier backers and keep the system afloat, because the core product doesn't sell or have any meaningful input into actual income; but it rapidly reaches a point where by there simply isn't enough new backing to do so and the whole system implodes... at which point everyone still invested is wiped out.

    Portalarium only gets money from the original item sales. It makes no money from RMT sales done in game between players. However like Amway and any other Multi Level Marketers, they have deliberately set up the distribution system below them (that is Shroud of the Avatar) and surrounding hype etc around it to encourage people to believe they will make a profit from re-trading these digital rares to each other. Just believe, and you can be rich beyond your wildest dreams...

    And just like a Ponzi Scheme, there's simply not enough people in the world to keep on inflating the price of virtual goods in Shroud to allow the second owners, third owners, fourth owners etc to continually profit. Hardly anyone plays the game as it is; and there's only a finite number of people in the world prepared to pay $30,000 to get a Golden Castle, less people still who would risk spending $30k to try re-sell it to the even less people who'd pay $31k to a potentially questionable RMT to own one.

    Now this is the sort of risk people take in any capitalist venture; will the market survive, will people want my product...? But what makes Shroud particularly like an Ponzi is that we've known for years that Shroud is struggling. The game is widely disliked, Portalarium are getting increasingly desperate in finding new ways of getting their top level cut, and development is years behind schedule; the end is obviously close and getting closer every day. And when the game closes, everything in it completely vanishes.

    This isn't like selling shoes, where the owner at least still has a pair of shoes if the shoe business goes under; this is truly like a Ponzi because when it implodes, the people left holding the goods at the end are beggared, as the core product is actually worthless. Without new people, it's over.

    This is also true of any online MMO, but I'm referring specifically to the fact that people who are involved in the marketing scheme know, or at least if they've an ounce of common sense they should know that if they're still holding stock when Shroud implodes, they'll take a huge loss.  The only way to make a profit is to bring in a new lot of backers, who will buy it all off you, and cash out before it happens... and let them take the loss instead.

    In effect, you're encouraged to willingly gamble on shafting others to make money. Which is disgusting. And the vast majority of people ARE going to end up shafted. They always do, in any Ponzi scheme. Which is why they're so, so evil.

    And so is Shroud.

     
    KyleranRufusUOIselinGdemami
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    edited July 2017
    Now this is the sort of risk people take in any capitalist venture; will the market survive, will people want my product...? But what makes Shroud particularly like an Ponzi is that we've known for years that Shroud is struggling. The game is widely disliked, Portalarium are getting increasingly desperate in finding new ways of getting their top level cut, and development is years behind schedule; the end is obviously close and getting closer every day. And when the game closes, everything in it completely vanishes.
    That doesn't make anything a ponzi scheme. It's just exceptionally bad investment.

    A ponzi scheme would be a system where:
    1: Portalarium sells its backers items
    2. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items
    3. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items.
    4. Etc. Continues doing that as long as on every round Portalarium sells for more $ than they buy back.


    If Portalarium manages to create a situation where people see their items as valuable collectibles that will likely increase in value that's smart business, not a ponzi scheme.
    Gdemami
     
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    They've been hyping "investment" since 2013.  And in Dev+ they've had open dialog about keeping taxes high on property deeds in order to boost the resale value of tax-free homes.  They've been systematically retiring add-on store items and they even have categories and flair for items they intend to be rare so as to make "investing" in cash shop items even easier.

    There's no one paragraph that paints this project as a scam, but for anyone that's been with it since the beginning (and is still around to talk about it), it's pretty obvious what's been going on.


    RawynAron_SwordmasterGdemami
  • RawynRawyn Member UncommonPosts: 202
    edited July 2017
    This is a really good post that helps to show how dire this games financial situation is, kudos to this guy.


    beatniche

    The suggestion that they can continue to operate under their current revenue stream is laughable. Since you are so fact based in your analysis, let me speak your language. All of the following information has provided by Portalarium and, I think, contradicts any suggestion that without changes, the company has financial issues (all numbers below are approximate)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium estimates their monthly expenses at ($230,000)

    In 2017, January through July, Portalarium's expenses (based on the figure they provided) have been ($1,610,000)

    In 2017, January through July 26, Portalarium has raised $999,977.

    In 2017, Portalarium has spent ($610,023) more than they have earned.

    In 2017, Portalarium has averaged $142,854 per month, an average monthly shortfall of ($87,146)

    March is the only month so far in 2017 that Portalarium's income outpaced (by $13,038) their seedinvest reported estimated expenses.

    A comparison

    January - July 2014: $1,646,488

    January - July 2015: $1,300,414 (-$346,074)

    January - July 2016: $1,488,209 (+$187,795)

    January - July 2017: $999,977 (-$488,232)

    Since last September, Portalarium has raised $1,721,122 vs. their total estimated expenses of ($2,530,000) for a deficit of ($808,878)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium put their current cash on hand at around $600,000 in May 2017. Since May, Portalarium has had 2 months, June and July, of expenses totaling ($460,000) and has raised $228,069 for a deficit of ($231,931).

    If Portalarium maintains their current 2017 funding level, their projected total raised for 2017 would be $1,714,248. Their projected expenses for 2017 are ($2,760,000).

    In order to break even, Portalarium needs to raise $1,760,023 over the next 5 months (August - December) which means averaging $352,005 per month. In the 52 months since the end if Kickstarter, they've exceeded $350,000 4 times. April 2014 with the expiration of Founder status expiration, August 2015 Reward Expirations, July 2016 Summer Expiration Event 1, and August 2016 Summer Expiration Event 2.

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium stated their monthly income ranges between $150,000 and $300,000. Their monthly average in 2017 is below the minimum stated at $142,853. 4 of the 7 months in 2017 have been below $150,000. The actual range for 2017 is between $67,413 (June) and $243,038 (March).

    Keep in mind, none of this includes the physical rewards or shipping costs associated with sending out those rewards.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudoftheavatar/comments/6po0xu/what_seed_invest_and_these_mini_telethons_really/
    blorpykinsLeFantomeRufusUOAron_SwordmasterGdemami
  • RaquisRaquis Member RarePosts: 1,018
    Richard Garriott and the developers of SOTHA are liars they did not listen to the community their idea was from the start to make an old school game for them to play the combat suck and you SUCK, ill NEVER buy anything from that scum again!Richard Garriott also sold out and worships lucifer he went to "space" and we know that's impossible the earth is covered by a solid dome and he wears and Ankh the cross with the circle on top around his next it's a satanic symbol!
    blorpykinsCrazKanukIselinRawynLeFantomeAron_Swordmaster
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    Raquis said:
    Richard Garriott and the developers of SOTHA are liars they did not listen to the community their idea was from the start to make an old school game for them to play the combat suck and you SUCK, ill NEVER buy anything from that scum again!Richard Garriott also sold out and worships lucifer he went to "space" and we know that's impossible the earth is covered by a solid dome and he wears and Ankh the cross with the circle on top around his next it's a satanic symbol!

    I know he has some extremist fans that think of him as the living God of Muhammad, but I never picked up on any devil worship.  And fyi, I'm pretty sure the earth is covered by a thin layer of organic yogurt and spinrkles. :smirk:
    RawynLeFantome
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Raquis said:
    Richard Garriott and the developers of SOTHA are liars they did not listen to the community their idea was from the start to make an old school game for them to play the combat suck and you SUCK, ill NEVER buy anything from that scum again!Richard Garriott also sold out and worships lucifer he went to "space" and we know that's impossible the earth is covered by a solid dome and he wears and Ankh the cross with the circle on top around his next it's a satanic symbol!

    I know he has some extremist fans that think of him as the living God of Muhammad, but I never picked up on any devil worship.  And fyi, I'm pretty sure the earth is covered by a thin layer of organic yogurt and spinrkles. :smirk:

    Surprised you didn't know that, in act Origin was actually founded as a devil worshiping cult. Take a look at their alumni and it's a who's who list of devil worshipers :)

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    CrazKanuk said:
    Raquis said:
    Richard Garriott and the developers of SOTHA are liars they did not listen to the community their idea was from the start to make an old school game for them to play the combat suck and you SUCK, ill NEVER buy anything from that scum again!Richard Garriott also sold out and worships lucifer he went to "space" and we know that's impossible the earth is covered by a solid dome and he wears and Ankh the cross with the circle on top around his next it's a satanic symbol!

    I know he has some extremist fans that think of him as the living God of Muhammad, but I never picked up on any devil worship.  And fyi, I'm pretty sure the earth is covered by a thin layer of organic yogurt and spinrkles. :smirk:

    Surprised you didn't know that, in act Origin was actually founded as a devil worshiping cult. Take a look at their alumni and it's a who's who list of devil worshipers :)

    I remember in the 80s he got a letter that called him a satanic perverter of America's youth... but I also remember my mom watching some crap on TV in the 80s about how music was brainwashing kids into becoming satanists and she threw away my entire metal collection.
    Aron_Swordmaster
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    Rawyn said:
    This is a really good post that helps to show how dire this games financial situation is, kudos to this guy.


    beatniche

    The suggestion that they can continue to operate under their current revenue stream is laughable. Since you are so fact based in your analysis, let me speak your language. All of the following information has provided by Portalarium and, I think, contradicts any suggestion that without changes, the company has financial issues (all numbers below are approximate)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium estimates their monthly expenses at ($230,000)

    In 2017, January through July, Portalarium's expenses (based on the figure they provided) have been ($1,610,000)

    In 2017, January through July 26, Portalarium has raised $999,977.

    In 2017, Portalarium has spent ($610,023) more than they have earned.

    In 2017, Portalarium has averaged $142,854 per month, an average monthly shortfall of ($87,146)

    March is the only month so far in 2017 that Portalarium's income outpaced (by $13,038) their seedinvest reported estimated expenses.

    A comparison

    January - July 2014: $1,646,488

    January - July 2015: $1,300,414 (-$346,074)

    January - July 2016: $1,488,209 (+$187,795)

    January - July 2017: $999,977 (-$488,232)

    Since last September, Portalarium has raised $1,721,122 vs. their total estimated expenses of ($2,530,000) for a deficit of ($808,878)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium put their current cash on hand at around $600,000 in May 2017. Since May, Portalarium has had 2 months, June and July, of expenses totaling ($460,000) and has raised $228,069 for a deficit of ($231,931).

    If Portalarium maintains their current 2017 funding level, their projected total raised for 2017 would be $1,714,248. Their projected expenses for 2017 are ($2,760,000).

    In order to break even, Portalarium needs to raise $1,760,023 over the next 5 months (August - December) which means averaging $352,005 per month. In the 52 months since the end if Kickstarter, they've exceeded $350,000 4 times. April 2014 with the expiration of Founder status expiration, August 2015 Reward Expirations, July 2016 Summer Expiration Event 1, and August 2016 Summer Expiration Event 2.

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium stated their monthly income ranges between $150,000 and $300,000. Their monthly average in 2017 is below the minimum stated at $142,853. 4 of the 7 months in 2017 have been below $150,000. The actual range for 2017 is between $67,413 (June) and $243,038 (March).

    Keep in mind, none of this includes the physical rewards or shipping costs associated with sending out those rewards.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudoftheavatar/comments/6po0xu/what_seed_invest_and_these_mini_telethons_really/

    And now the party takes on a Titanic theme.



    RawynLeFantome
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    Raquis said:
    Richard Garriott and the developers of SOTHA are liars they did not listen to the community their idea was from the start to make an old school game for them to play the combat suck and you SUCK, ill NEVER buy anything from that scum again!Richard Garriott also sold out and worships lucifer he went to "space" and we know that's impossible the earth is covered by a solid dome and he wears and Ankh the cross with the circle on top around his next it's a satanic symbol!

    I know he has some extremist fans that think of him as the living God of Muhammad, but I never picked up on any devil worship.  And fyi, I'm pretty sure the earth is covered by a thin layer of organic yogurt and spinrkles. :smirk:

    Surprised you didn't know that, in act Origin was actually founded as a devil worshiping cult. Take a look at their alumni and it's a who's who list of devil worshipers :)

    I remember in the 80s he got a letter that called him a satanic perverter of America's youth... but I also remember my mom watching some crap on TV in the 80s about how music was brainwashing kids into becoming satanists and she threw away my entire metal collection.

    Yeah, I fondly remember my mother finding my Ozzy Osborne cassette and almost crying. If I had the Internet back then, I might have had something more witty for her, like "Did Elvis pervert you mom?" Unfortunately, no Internet. Even if I did, there was no Google, so that would have been too much work. BTW, what the fuck is wrong with kids today? Why do they ask me questions? They have Google and Siri and Cortana yet still seem to believe silly shit. It's a fucking travesty!! 
    blorpykins

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen Member UncommonPosts: 2,483
    Rawyn said:
    This is a really good post that helps to show how dire this games financial situation is, kudos to this guy.


    beatniche

    The suggestion that they can continue to operate under their current revenue stream is laughable. Since you are so fact based in your analysis, let me speak your language. All of the following information has provided by Portalarium and, I think, contradicts any suggestion that without changes, the company has financial issues (all numbers below are approximate)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium estimates their monthly expenses at ($230,000)

    In 2017, January through July, Portalarium's expenses (based on the figure they provided) have been ($1,610,000)

    In 2017, January through July 26, Portalarium has raised $999,977.

    In 2017, Portalarium has spent ($610,023) more than they have earned.

    In 2017, Portalarium has averaged $142,854 per month, an average monthly shortfall of ($87,146)

    March is the only month so far in 2017 that Portalarium's income outpaced (by $13,038) their seedinvest reported estimated expenses.

    A comparison

    January - July 2014: $1,646,488

    January - July 2015: $1,300,414 (-$346,074)

    January - July 2016: $1,488,209 (+$187,795)

    January - July 2017: $999,977 (-$488,232)

    Since last September, Portalarium has raised $1,721,122 vs. their total estimated expenses of ($2,530,000) for a deficit of ($808,878)

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium put their current cash on hand at around $600,000 in May 2017. Since May, Portalarium has had 2 months, June and July, of expenses totaling ($460,000) and has raised $228,069 for a deficit of ($231,931).

    If Portalarium maintains their current 2017 funding level, their projected total raised for 2017 would be $1,714,248. Their projected expenses for 2017 are ($2,760,000).

    In order to break even, Portalarium needs to raise $1,760,023 over the next 5 months (August - December) which means averaging $352,005 per month. In the 52 months since the end if Kickstarter, they've exceeded $350,000 4 times. April 2014 with the expiration of Founder status expiration, August 2015 Reward Expirations, July 2016 Summer Expiration Event 1, and August 2016 Summer Expiration Event 2.

    In the seedinvest documents, Portalarium stated their monthly income ranges between $150,000 and $300,000. Their monthly average in 2017 is below the minimum stated at $142,853. 4 of the 7 months in 2017 have been below $150,000. The actual range for 2017 is between $67,413 (June) and $243,038 (March).

    Keep in mind, none of this includes the physical rewards or shipping costs associated with sending out those rewards.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/shroudoftheavatar/comments/6po0xu/what_seed_invest_and_these_mini_telethons_really/

    And now the party takes on a Titanic theme.



    Lol
    LeFantome

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,402
    And they laugh it up and get wasted while all those chumps send them money...Maybe they DO know what they're doing.
    RawynLeFantomeIce-QueenAron_Swordmaster
  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 649
    And they laugh it up and get wasted while all those chumps send them money...Maybe they DO know what they're doing.

    Ummm, yeah. You're not wrong on that one.
    Ice-QueenAron_Swordmaster

    image
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,174
    And they laugh it up and get wasted while all those chumps send them money...Maybe they DO know what they're doing.
    It's too bad they are not even half as good at making a video game as they are at taking peoples money. Go watch one of those begathons they have that down professional yo. If you can stand the embarrassing cringe that is.
    Ice-QueenAron_Swordmaster

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • Aron_SwordmasterAron_Swordmaster Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Vrika said:

    That doesn't make anything a ponzi scheme. It's just exceptionally bad investment.

    A ponzi scheme would be a system where:
    1: Portalarium sells its backers items
    2. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items
    3. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items.
    4. Etc. Continues doing that as long as on every round Portalarium sells for more $ than they buy back.


    If Portalarium manages to create a situation where people see their items as valuable collectibles that will likely increase in value that's smart business, not a ponzi scheme.

    Repeating the same unbelievably WRONG claim doesn't make the claim now right.

    Seriously, if you're not going to bother even trying to learn what a Ponzi scheme is, you're unworthy of talking too.


    GdemamiRawyn
  • Aron_SwordmasterAron_Swordmaster Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Nilden said:
    And they laugh it up and get wasted while all those chumps send them money...Maybe they DO know what they're doing.
    It's too bad they are not even half as good at making a video game as they are at taking peoples money. Go watch one of those begathons they have that down professional yo. If you can stand the embarrassing cringe that is.

    Yes, all sins would be forgiven perhaps if they actually gave us a game we WANTED to play; heck they could have just released a modern version of Ultima 7, top down view and all and we'd have probably felt content... instead they have to create an unholy abomination of RMT driven greed with a badly made, amateurishly designed, non-functional in many areas and completely missing content in others shell of a game where the only quality is that you can use it as a virtual chat room for the few escapists from real life to hide in.

    But the RMT works. By god, the ability to sell house decoration to desperate housewives and people on disability works perfectly.

    Somewhere along the lines the Virtuous life of the Avatar got forgotten though. I don't recall the part in Ultima IV where you come across the misfortunate and take gold off them, even though you're already stinking rich, do you?
    GdemamiMightyUncleanRawyn
  • IceAgeIceAge Member EpicPosts: 2,589
    LeFantome

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    edited July 2017
    Vrika said:

    That doesn't make anything a ponzi scheme. It's just exceptionally bad investment.

    A ponzi scheme would be a system where:
    1: Portalarium sells its backers items
    2. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items
    3. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items.
    4. Etc. Continues doing that as long as on every round Portalarium sells for more $ than they buy back.


    If Portalarium manages to create a situation where people see their items as valuable collectibles that will likely increase in value that's smart business, not a ponzi scheme.

    Repeating the same unbelievably WRONG claim doesn't make the claim now right.

    Seriously, if you're not going to bother even trying to learn what a Ponzi scheme is, you're unworthy of talking too.


    "What is not a Ponzi scheme
    ...
    A bubble: A "bubble" is about re-selling. A bubble is when people buy up all of a product they can, to re-sell it all at a higher price, as many times as they can.
    ...
    Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers. Re-sellers can also make money by referring new re-sellers to the company"
    Post edited by Vrika on
     
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,640
    Vrika said:
    Vrika said:

    That doesn't make anything a ponzi scheme. It's just exceptionally bad investment.

    A ponzi scheme would be a system where:
    1: Portalarium sells its backers items
    2. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items
    3. Portalarium buys those items back above their original prices, and finances it by selling more of those items.
    4. Etc. Continues doing that as long as on every round Portalarium sells for more $ than they buy back.


    If Portalarium manages to create a situation where people see their items as valuable collectibles that will likely increase in value that's smart business, not a ponzi scheme.

    Repeating the same unbelievably WRONG claim doesn't make the claim now right.

    Seriously, if you're not going to bother even trying to learn what a Ponzi scheme is, you're unworthy of talking too.


    "What is not a Ponzi scheme
    ...
    A bubble: A "bubble" is about re-selling. A bubble is when people buy up all of a product they can, to re-sell it all at a higher price, as many times as they can.
    ...
    Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers"

    Source: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
    I didn't realize so much of our economic structure is built on MLM. Franchises, "employee owned" businesses, etc. Is it still MLM when there is no buy-in and the resellers aren't investors?

    Anyway it's always fun to watch people gnash over a game they hate. Poor twisted up frustrated people. I always chuckle whenever I see a blurb on Steam or Facebook about this game. I know that there are kb/m warriors furiously pointing out all the injustice. I come here and am not disappointed. :lol:
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    edited July 2017
    Where, anywhere at all in the definition listed does it claim the organisation buys back its own produce at a higher price than it first sold it to its marketers?
    In here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

     "the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors"

    The operator of ponzi scheme pays investors profits for their investment. If a third party pays investors profit then it's a bubble:

      "Economic bubbles are also similar to a Ponzi scheme in that one participant gets paid by contributions from a subsequent participant (until inevitable collapse). A bubble involves ever-rising prices in an open market (for example stock, housing, or tulip bulbs) where prices rise because buyers bid more, and buyers bid more because prices are rising. Bubbles are often said to be based on the "greater fool" theory.

    Aron_Swordmaster said:

    And how could it possibly work at any level if they did? You'd be effectively just giving people free money, whilst having to manufacture stock for them to just sit on for a while, before claiming back more money than they originally gave you for products they'd have no logical reason to even try selling.
    It works because the cost to produce whatever they are selling is close to zero. Ponzi schemes do not normally use physical product, instead they offer "investment opportunities"  or something similar that cost almost nothing to create.

    As long as the following round of investment opportunities sells for more money than schemer has to buy back their previous round, the schemer can generate money to investors and also gets profit for himself.

    Eventually there comes a round where schemer manages to sell less new investment opportunities than they must buy back new ones, and the ponzi scheme collapses, but if the scheme does well new rounds of selling will be larger than old rounds of buying and the scheme can last for years before the inevitable collapse.
     
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,704
    edited July 2017
    Torval said:
    Vrika said:

    "What is not a Ponzi scheme
    ...
    A bubble: A "bubble" is about re-selling. A bubble is when people buy up all of a product they can, to re-sell it all at a higher price, as many times as they can.
    ...
    Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers"

    Source: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
    I didn't realize so much of our economic structure is built on MLM. Franchises, "employee owned" businesses, etc. Is it still MLM when there is no buy-in and the resellers aren't investors?

    Anyway it's always fun to watch people gnash over a game they hate. Poor twisted up frustrated people. I always chuckle whenever I see a blurb on Steam or Facebook about this game. I know that there are kb/m warriors furiously pointing out all the injustice. I come here and am not disappointed. :lol:
    @Torval

    I made a mistake while copy-pasting and shortened that multi-level marketing definition too much. Sorry.

    It should have read:

      "Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers. Re-sellers can also make money by referring new re-sellers to the company"

    Normal franchises, employee owned businesses, etc. are not multi-level marketing as long as they don't actively recruit new sellers.
    Torval
     
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    edited July 2017
    Here's Chris Spears with a Trusted Trader (official Portlarium business partner) telling people to buy COTO because they're going to increase in value to as much as 4000 gold each.

    start 8m




    And here's a post where Chris Spears says they'll manipulate the drop rate of the COTO based on it's selling price in game.

    "COTOs drop in game and we will increase the drop rate as the vendor prices for them increase."


    That doesn't seem right to me; and this is just the public stuff.  What's being said in Dev+?

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,640
    Vrika said:
    Torval said:
    Vrika said:

    "What is not a Ponzi scheme
    ...
    A bubble: A "bubble" is about re-selling. A bubble is when people buy up all of a product they can, to re-sell it all at a higher price, as many times as they can.
    ...
    Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers"

    Source: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
    I didn't realize so much of our economic structure is built on MLM. Franchises, "employee owned" businesses, etc. Is it still MLM when there is no buy-in and the resellers aren't investors?

    Anyway it's always fun to watch people gnash over a game they hate. Poor twisted up frustrated people. I always chuckle whenever I see a blurb on Steam or Facebook about this game. I know that there are kb/m warriors furiously pointing out all the injustice. I come here and am not disappointed. :lol:
    @Torval

    I made a mistake while copy-pasting and shortened that multi-level marketing definition too much. Sorry.

    It should have read:

      "Multi-level marketing: Multi-level marketing (MLM) is when companies sell investors things to re-sell directly to customers. Re-sellers can also make money by referring new re-sellers to the company"

    Normal franchises, employee owned businesses, etc. are not multi-level marketing as long as they don't actively recruit new sellers.
    Got it. Thanks.
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