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A few questions to decide if I give TESO another try

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  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,177
    Level scaling is a compromise no matter how you do it. The only way it wouldn't be a compromise is by removing levels entirely - at which point you don't have to scale anything.

    That said, I MUCH prefer this compromise when it's handled well - because I find levels to be a very artificial and outdated design paradigm.

    It can still work, but it has to be done right - and the old EQ way is rigid and counterproductive in too many ways.

    While there are still many ways to improve One Tamriel - it's probably the best example of modern level scaling - and while it's STILL a compromise, it most definitely made the game much more enjoyable overall, especially if you enjoy freeform exploration and the TES feeling of being able to do what you want, when you want.

    Also, there's still plenty of progression - though I would have preferred the equipment scaling to work differently, as it's actually possible to upgrade your gear in terms of level/damage and yet perform worse than you did at a lower level with lower level gear.

    In the end, I consider TESO the best modern MMO on the market. That said, it's far from ideal - and it doesn't revolutionise the genre in any way.

    It's just really well done and has a ton of wise design decisions that all add up to a great experience.
    Octagon7711Jean-Luc_Picard
  • GolelornGolelorn Member UncommonPosts: 1,379
    I started up again on the xBox one, and I am enjoying it. It has matured very well. It's a shame it was not in this state when it first launched on PC. On xbox this game is hopping. I get groups instantly, and always see lots of people out and about. 

    Tamriel One does revolutionize the modern MMO. You can play with anyone of any level, and join multiple guilds. Not sure how that is not revolutionary, but you're entitled to your opinion.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,177
    Golelorn said:
    I started up again on the xBox one, and I am enjoying it. It has matured very well. It's a shame it was not in this state when it first launched on PC. On xbox this game is hopping. I get groups instantly, and always see lots of people out and about. 

    Tamriel One does revolutionize the modern MMO. You can play with anyone of any level, and join multiple guilds. Not sure how that is not revolutionary, but you're entitled to your opinion.
    I guess it doesn't take much for something to be a revolution for you :)

    In any case, from the very first MMOs - it has been possible for players of any stage of progression to play together - including Ultima Online.

    While (strict) level-based MMOs have been the norm for a while - they're not the only kind of MMO out there.

    That said, I consider it a significant improvement overall. Definitely not a revolution, though.

    But, as you said, you're entitled to your opinion.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 5,032
    edited October 2017
    To be accurate ESO is a level based system with diminishing scaling from level 1 to level 50 cp160.

    Which means?

    First it helps to understand what One Tamriel did to mobs: they were all set to "level 50 cp160". 

    Doesn't mean that all mobs are equal. There are "weaker" mobs, "normal" mobs, "boss" mobs, "pack mobs", "godlike" mobs and so on. Further complicated by some mobs being vulnerable to some stuff but resistant to others.

    By way of analogy think "Predator" (from the 1987 film) a powerful mob mowing through weak folk but ultimately still vulnerable. Different to EQ, WoW in which the power difference between weak and strong is so vast that weak mobs/characters simply cannot harm strong characters/mobs. "Grey" zones are 100% safe. 

    And so to characters:

    With OT all new level 1 characters are buffed (scaled) to level 50 cp160. So a (normal) level 50 cp160 mob won't own them outright.  

    As characters gain experience they "level". Initially from level 1 to level 50 and then to level 50 cp160.

    With each step they gain power - more pronounced from level 1 to level 50 (think growing up in real life, big gains in muscle mass etc. initially) but thereafter the gains become tiny. Accompanied by a decrease in the scaling buff.

    They will also acquire and develop skills which will also make them more powerful. Going from no skills to some skills is a big gain. As there is a limit on how many skills can be used during combat however once a character has a set of skills gaining extra makes the character "more flexible". Like learning extra languages say - you can only use one at once but having more could be useful.

    A word about gear and what OT introduced.

    Gear has 2 key markers: its level and its quality.

    New characters start with level 1-10 gear and as they level better and better gear becomes available. Twelve "level steps" basically. Since the scaling assumes that you will be wearing level appropriate gear however its not so much a case of getting higher level gear when it becomes available but more a case of not getting worse!

    Quality: there are 5 levels each providing a small gain. In theory you can have any quality level at level 1. In reality the rare drops needed to upgrade a level 1-10 item are the same as those needed to upgrade a level 50 cp160 item so .... nah.

    Many new players still don't appreciate the above. And just how hard it is to upgrade gear even to middling (Superior) quality let alone Legendary. Prior to One Tamriel there were complaints: the game sucked. They wanted the "good stuff" they could get in other games. And woe betide a crafter who offered to make them a set basic gear - not understanding that "sets" provide bigger bonuses than those gained through quality. 

    OT made it possible for characters to collect sets of gear from specific zones. Basically bad for crafters but good overall. 

    So finally the new character, after a non-trivial journey in terms of time taken, gets to level 50 cp160. And they have no scaling buff.

    Beyond that development continues.

    With each gain in cp they continue to make tiny gains in power. And eventually they get the set of gear they want and in time Legendary gear for another tiny gain in power.

    The tiny gains all add up though. You will become a Predator but you will never become totally invincible.

    And that, for me, was the real change that One Tamriel brought. The extreme variations of a typical level based system were compressed. There are still easier mobs and harder mobs but they are all "level 50".


    Post edited by gervaise1 on
    TorvalOctagon7711Jean-Luc_PicardIselin
  • AlomarAlomar Member RarePosts: 1,079
    If you're a hardcore gamer then take into consideration ESO development as of the past few years is aimed at casual pve'ers and rp'ers, with a heavy focus on their cash shop. You will need to take breaks and it won't end up being your mmo home. If you fit the playstyles they're appealing to, then have a blast as the game is pretty fun in mild doses.
    Octagon7711
    Fortes Fortuna Iuvat

    18 year MMO veteran 
    Retired PvP Raid Leader 
    Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 7,600
    Alomar said:
    If you're a hardcore gamer then take into consideration ESO development as of the past few years is aimed at casual pve'ers and rp'ers, with a heavy focus on their cash shop. You will need to take breaks and it won't end up being your mmo home. If you fit the playstyles they're appealing to, then have a blast as the game is pretty fun in mild doses.
    That's pretty much how I play that game.

    “We see the world, not as it is, but as we are or, as we are conditioned to see it.”   ― Stephen R. Covey

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,580
    edited October 2017

    Alomar said:
    ... heavy focus on their cash shop...
    Hum, your post isn't bad, but about that... no, just no. but then, I'm an old school player who doesn't mind paying a monthly fee for a good game, so I don't need the cash shop at all.
    Post edited by Jean-Luc_Picard on
    Torval
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    Yeah, if you sub to this game, much like TOR, you don't need to use the cash shop at all. The only other purchase would be the annual chapters like Morrowind. 1500 Crowns a month for a stipend is pretty fat considering that it is around the price of Crown packs alone when they're not on sale. You can get better crown pack deals (crowns/monies) but not a lot better considering the perks exclusive to the sub.
    *INCOMING RADIOACTIVE SUPERCELL*
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  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 314
    edited November 2017
    gervaise1 said:

    Crafting itself is the red herring - since the update last November.

    Other than learning to cook - and to a lesser extent make potions - I would suggest people play the game and not focus on crafting. It takes a long time to research everything; been there, got the t-shirt. 

    Nor is there a craft economy - at least on my megaserver. You won't "get rich" selling mats - if you want gold you would be much better off farming gear drops. Which people buy - reinforcing the point about the status of crafting.

    Nor did the game have a crafting bag when it first launched. When crafting had much more of a place. I - and others - used alts to store mats and gear to deconstruct. Annoying as hell basically. Every skill for every profession maxed with no bag - because there was no bag.

    Now when the optional sub launched the crafting bag was a "useful" bonus for crafters anyway. Now the question is: how pertinent is crafting. It has a place but if you are starting out in the game you don't need to worry about it.
    I craft because I enjoy crafting.
    I'm not in it to "get rich". I'm not worried about whether or not crafting will yield the "BIS" gear (as others have alluded to). I don't subscribe to this pervasive mentality of things only being worth doing if they yield "the best" of whatever. Never have. Never will.

    If I had a dime for every time I've seen people say -don't do "content here-. The rewards aren't worth it" over the years, I'd be pretty well off.

    I do things because they're fun to me right now, in the present, as I'm doing them. Not in anticipation of reaching some "ultimate reward that makes it all worthwhile" down the road. I might not be playing the game long enough to ever get there (for any number of reasons), so approaching the game only in terms of some far-off goal, especially if it's at the expense of having fun along the way, just does not make sense to me. Yet it seems to be how so many in the genre approach it. 

    Can I craft the best gear in the game? No. Can even I craft 9 Trait stuff, yet? Nope. Does it matter? No. Because I can craft stuff that's good enough for me to play as I enjoy. If the question is "what about when you get to end game?", then my answer is "I'll cross that bridge when I reach it". 'til then I'm going to do what's fun to me.

    So, while crafting might be a "red herring" to you, it isn't to me. Different priorities, different mentalities, different ideas of "fun". 

    Regardless, if someone likes to make some extra money selling of mats, even if they're not "raking in millions" or whatever... then yes, the bag is *very* helpful as it clears up inventory space that would otherwise be used. Also, the idea of "selling mats vs selling valuable drops" is a false dichotomy. You can do both.


    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,580
    gervaise1 said:

    Crafting itself is the red herring - since the update last November.

    Other than learning to cook - and to a lesser extent make potions - I would suggest people play the game and not focus on crafting. It takes a long time to research everything; been there, got the t-shirt. 

    Nor is there a craft economy - at least on my megaserver. You won't "get rich" selling mats - if you want gold you would be much better off farming gear drops. Which people buy - reinforcing the point about the status of crafting.

    Nor did the game have a crafting bag when it first launched. When crafting had much more of a place. I - and others - used alts to store mats and gear to deconstruct. Annoying as hell basically. Every skill for every profession maxed with no bag - because there was no bag.

    Now when the optional sub launched the crafting bag was a "useful" bonus for crafters anyway. Now the question is: how pertinent is crafting. It has a place but if you are starting out in the game you don't need to worry about it.
    I craft because I enjoy crafting.
    I'm not in it to "get rich". I'm not worried about whether or not crafting will yield the "BIS" gear (as others have alluded to). I don't subscribe to this pervasive mentality of things only being worth doing if they yield "the best" of whatever. Never have. Never will.

    If I had a dime for every time I've seen people say -don't do "content here-. The rewards aren't worth it" over the years, I'd be pretty well off.

    I do things because they're fun to me right now, in the present, as I'm doing them. Not in anticipation of reaching some "ultimate reward" down the road. I might not be playing the game long enough to ever get there (for any number of reasons), so approaching the game only in terms of some far-off goal, especially if it's at the expense of having fun along the way, just does not make sense to me. Yet it seems to be how so many in the genre approach it. 

    Can I craft the best gear in the game? No. Can even I craft 9 Trait stuff, yet? Nope. Does it matter? No. Because I can craft stuff that's good enough for me to play as I enjoy. If the question is "what about when you get to end game?", then my answer is "I'll cross that bridge when I reach it". 'til then I'm going to do what's fun to me.

    So, while crafting might be a "red herring" to you, it isn't to me. Different priorities, different mentalities, different ideas of "fun". 

    Regardless, if someone likes to make some extra money selling of mats, even if they're not "raking in millions" or whatever... then yes, the bag is *very* helpful as it clears up inventory space that would otherwise be used. Also, the idea of "selling mats vs selling valuable drops" is a false dichotomy. You can do both.
    I'm playing just like you, in all of my MMORPGs. My idea of fun is not playing some kind of excel spreadsheet where you have to max out some numbers, but to enjoy all the aspects of the game. Crafting is quite fun in ESO.
    YashaXQuarterStack
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 8700k (4.70ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 4K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • PhryPhry Member EpicPosts: 9,757
    Golelorn said:
    I started up again on the xBox one, and I am enjoying it. It has matured very well. It's a shame it was not in this state when it first launched on PC. On xbox this game is hopping. I get groups instantly, and always see lots of people out and about. 

    Tamriel One does revolutionize the modern MMO. You can play with anyone of any level, and join multiple guilds. Not sure how that is not revolutionary, but you're entitled to your opinion.
    It certainly helped ESO, but it isn't any kind of a revolution in terms of MMO's as it didn't introduce anything that isn't already present in other MMO's, level scaling is not exactly uncommon whether its from scaling the world or scaling the character you are playing to a more appropriate level for the area, its just one of the ways that some MMO's have used to get around problems caused by having areas being level based in the first place. I would be shocked indeed if you were having problems getting a group, its one of the huge advantages of using Megaservers rather than individual 'servers' the community might not be persistent but it helps keep them numerous, indeed the game would have to be in an extremely sorry state for there to be problems grouping. But as you are coming at this from being a Console player i can understand why you might consider this to be revolutionary in some way. :p
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