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F2P being considered for SotA long term, says Richard Garriott

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  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Gdemami said:
    blorpykins said:
    How can Portalarium not know how they're going to make money?

    Because contrary to ridiculous believes of the posters here, monetization model isn't an initial and driving force behind game design and is usually decided in quite late development...
      Yes it is. I'm not sure how many business plans you've pitched, but if you try to make a game before figuring out how to monetize it you will end up just like Mr.Garriot. Which means selling your hair and blood for money. 

      No publisher or independent financier in their right mind would ever agree to loan or fund something without knowing the plan of repayment.  
    GdemamiRawyn
  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 649
    bartoni33 said:
    kitarad said:
    65,000 backers and only 133 playing the game right now. Those figures do not compute. Something is off.
    I'm one of those 65K. I haven't played it in at least a year. It is not the game I Kickstarted at all. I have totally put this game off my radar. I'm sure I speak for most of those 65K.

    Yes , you are.
    Rawyn

    image
  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,152
    kitarad said:
    65,000 backers and only 133 playing the game right now. Those figures do not compute. Something is off.
    Actually, that ratio is probably standard for "early access" games, particularly of the MMO kind. A great many people buy , try and shelve it for "later" once they find that the "early" state of the game is not really compelling. 

    And in the case of MMO's, there's often a wipe or two during development, which also discourages frequent or prolonged play.
    133 players on steam playing. Last I checked I still don't have to play the game through steam. So saying just 133 people are playing can be very misleading.
  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 649
    kitarad said:
    65,000 backers and only 133 playing the game right now. Those figures do not compute. Something is off.
    Actually, that ratio is probably standard for "early access" games, particularly of the MMO kind. A great many people buy , try and shelve it for "later" once they find that the "early" state of the game is not really compelling. 

    And in the case of MMO's, there's often a wipe or two during development, which also discourages frequent or prolonged play.
    133 players on steam playing. Last I checked I still don't have to play the game through steam. So saying just 133 people are playing can be very misleading.
    Agreed.  200 would be more precise.
    RawynJDis25

    image
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538
    Gdemami said:
    blorpykins said:
    How can Portalarium not know how they're going to make money?

    Because contrary to ridiculous believes of the posters here, monetization model isn't an initial and driving force behind game design and is usually decided in quite late development...
    If businesses really are starting up MMO development without thinking about how they're going to make money from it, it's no wonder why so many MMOs are failing these days  (it's not as much an issue with non MMOs, of course, considering that their revenue model basically just boils down to "Make people buy this game.")

    That said, considering how deeply entwined the cash shop is with a lot of F2P MMOs, I am quite positive that monetization has entered into the design phase rather early in most F2P MMOs' life.  Not so much with B2P and Sub MMOs of course (of which the long term ramifications of B2P leads to some rather hilarious monetization issues down the line.  Guild Wars 2 really seems directionless sometimes...)

    Given the haphazard nature of it and Richard Garriot's statements that are hilariously out of touch with reality when it comes to the game's revenue hurdles in front of it, Shroud of the Avatar didn't consider monetization until late into development it seems, however.  But of course, they didn't consider lots of things (or at least consider lots of things correctly).
    GdemamiLeFantomeRawyn
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    SBFord said:
    We're going to reach out to Portalarium for an interview about this for clarification. We'll keep you posted!
    Does it even really matter at this point?


    rune_74 said:
    Do not let red thomas do that interview please, he is too close to the team.
    Yes, please NO! His over-developed sense of self-importance gets in the way of the words so it's hard to read the articles.
    LeFantomeRawyn
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,402
    RG - How are we going to make money in the long term?  Idunno.  Is that important?
    RealizerRawyn
  • IshkalIshkal Member UncommonPosts: 304
    HAHAHA omg they actually think that game is worth more then a 15$ a month sub that's priceless honestly from what I've seen the game barely rates a 5$ a month sub and an initial price tag.
    RealizerRawyn
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited June 2017
    bartoni33 said:
    kitarad said:
    65,000 backers and only 133 playing the game right now. Those figures do not compute. Something is off.
    I'm one of those 65K. I haven't played it in at least a year. It is not the game I Kickstarted at all. I have totally put this game off my radar. I'm sure I speak for most of those 65K.
    I think you do.

    I actually re-installed the game and...man it is still bloody awful.
    It just feels ancient, everything feels so slow and clunky, even completing the starting area was a struggle.

    I am an Old School player and I find it really difficult to play and understand the game, I cannot even begin to imagine how a player new too this type of games must feel playing SotA.

    Rawyn

  • RawynRawyn Member UncommonPosts: 202
    edited June 2017
    Ishkal said:
    HAHAHA omg they actually think that game is worth more then a 15$ a month sub that's priceless honestly from what I've seen the game barely rates a 5$ a month sub and an initial price tag.
    Apparently, they think it's worth up to $50 a month in sub LOL. This was Chris last year on the the subscription topic.


    "BTW, I think we've discussed a monthly pledge option publicly before. It would have multiple different levels, maybe $5,$10,$20,$50 a month pledge tiers. They would include a number COTOs at a good exchange rate, and a few fun items based on how many consecutive months you had pledged. COTO rewards per month could also increase over time as a reward for sticking with it. I know this isn't exactly what you want with a subscription BUT it would be really hard to force a completely new mandatory payment model onto the existing audience."

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/quick-brain-dump-on-our-logic-behind-cotos.71486/page-3#post-705035


    So it won't be mandatory but optional.

    Trust me when these people say crazy out there loony stuff like this, you can bet they will do it. They're so out of touch with reality it's not even funny.

    I'm sure they have been thinking on their sub option since the start of a way to milk people of more money. They should have focused on making a good game, instead they seem to have spent more time on how to get quick money fast from whales with high priced add on store junk, keeping their paychecks fat while doing the absolute minimum, and this laughable sub idea.

    They should have called this game TORTURE, because that's what it is to try and play this game, ROFL.

    Post edited by Rawyn on
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Kickstarter reminds us that SotA was supported by 22k backers for nearly $2 million in development costs.

    22k people. On what planet they thought 22k would multiply to 100k or 200k sustained subscription customers is beyond me.

    Everything we know about MMO retention shows that almost 80% of players stop playing after the first month. It's not common for a game to grow, month on month for any prolonged period of time. It just isn't. 

    This means that 22k people would be 4.4k after the first month. They would have to attract 95k - 195k paying players to sustain their imaginary numbers. lol


    And I know "this time it's different", but Ashes of Creation brought in $3.3million with 19.6k backers. Just saying. They're going to have to have a miraculous product in order to attract any real in-game population. 

    There has not, nor will there ever be, a game with 100% retention. There is drop-off and flux, and when your most ardent supporters are such a small group of people you're already ice skating uphill. You might make it, but you're going to have to skate like a freakin terminator.


    There is no shortage of dream-worthy feature lists on Kickstarter, just remember that reality is a cruel mistress and she doesn't care how much you believe in Joe Schmoe running the project.
    Rawyn
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    I wouldn't be surprised if they offered the game as all three.  No matter what, you get access to the cash shop and all you need is F2P to get the basic game while a subscription gets you monthly rares (like a telethon, stretch goals being sub levels), and the buy to play would be the bundles that come with property deeds.
  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,980
    FTP = Most money wins.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,024
    Dauzqul said:
    FTP = Most money wins.
    Absolutely, just look at PoE for instance.......

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Nyctelios
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    In today's Reddit AMA, Darkstarr answered a question about how to bring in new players and keep them.

    Player:

    Q: What are your plans for bringing in new players and to keep the new players around long term?


    Darkstarr:

    A: We have been testing out our Free Trial system for the last few months and in the next few months we will begin promoting this more and more as the game improves to bring in new players. To keep players around long term we will be working on more high end content around the end of the year.



    There it is folks... unless I'm reading that wrong, it sounds like they're planning on marketing the game as a free trial.  It's not exactly F2P, but it's still free up until the player is faced with a paywall or quit.  I'm not seeing a lot of retention coming from this.
    Rawyn
  • Aron_SwordmasterAron_Swordmaster Member UncommonPosts: 181
    kitarad said:
    65,000 backers and only 133 playing the game right now. Those figures do not compute. Something is off.
    Actually, that ratio is probably standard for "early access" games, particularly of the MMO kind. A great many people buy , try and shelve it for "later" once they find that the "early" state of the game is not really compelling. 

    And in the case of MMO's, there's often a wipe or two during development, which also discourages frequent or prolonged play.
    133 players on steam playing. Last I checked I still don't have to play the game through steam. So saying just 133 people are playing can be very misleading.


    Why do you fans keep doing this? Why do you keep repeating statements you know are deceptive and have been disproven long ago?

    We've been through this a hundred times with Chris Spears himself even on the Reddit; we know the percentage of Steam accounts that are linked, it's just over half of all accounts. We know that their own highest figure of 700 odd Peak matched on that day to the visible 400 Peak on Steam, showing that the percentages of Steam to Non Steam held consistent, and thus that if you had the Steam client, you launched through it too;  we know then that the 133 players now mean the actual peak is only going to be around 200 total.

    Oh, and the game will never be wiped again. It launched into Persistence in July 2016 and Portalarium have stated time and time again it's never going to be wiped now. They answered as such in today's AMA.

    All of this is known.

    WE KNOW THIS.

    Why do you keep trying to deceive other people instead of just being honest and telling them the true state of the game?
    Gdemamiste2000Nycteliosblorpykins
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    In today's Reddit AMA, Darkstarr answered a question about how to bring in new players and keep them.


    There it is folks... unless I'm reading that wrong, it sounds like they're planning on marketing the game as a free trial.  It's not exactly F2P, but it's still free up until the player is faced with a paywall or quit.  I'm not seeing a lot of retention coming from this.
    I am more worried about the answer he gave on how they intend to keep players around: 'Add more End Game content'.

    That confirms that those guys don't have a clue of what they are doing.
    The game is shit from the get go, that's what put people off.
    The starting zone is absolutely atrocious, probably the worst of any game I played.

    If they want to keep the players they better redesign the UI and the Starting Zone, followed by a solid Story Line which introduce the player to the world of SotA by giving him an idea of what he is doing there and what he is supposed to do.
    For Gods sake use Lord British (the character, not Garriot) to build some kind of Lore around him, how difficult can it be.
    Give Britannia a soul, maybe people would star caring about exploring the world.

    Every time I try the game I reach a point where I think: 'What's the point of playing this game? Why should I keep playing it?'
    I cannot find a single reason.
    The games is so disjointed, it feels like a bunch of features mashed together without any real thought.
    I am actually shocked by how poor its design is.
    Do Portalarium actually even play their game?

    blorpykinsEarthgirlRawynPhizbin

  • hasho83hasho83 Member UncommonPosts: 84
    i was 300 $ in,thanks whatever the great power that helped me i managed to sell part of my share (250$ for 190$)! soooooooo i want my other 45$ back ! this game sux,but not even that-few years ago when i and most of the community screamed fix the combat,the devs were like,but everyone loves the combat,we wont touch it .And if someone is thinking like me back then- ill give SOTA a chance. Dont do it !
    RawynPhizbin
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,030
    Tiamat64 said:

    “If we have 65,000 backers now, if you just move that up to something as small as 100,000, and you look at a modest spending like in Ultima Online which was usually about $10 per month, that’s 12 million a year. If you bump that up to 200,000, that’s $24 million in revenues. Those kinds of numbers I think for many roleplaying games including ours are well within reach.”

    65,000 backers... of which only 133 are playing the game right now.

    Yea, "old person who isn't with the times" is seriously correct, else you'd think RG would know about the low rate of initial-player-base retention that's common knowledge by now.
    I'd guess they might be setting a new record low for retention rates if those figures are remotely accurate.

    Almost starting to make Wildstar look good by comparison. ;)
    NycteliosRawyn

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    edited June 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    “If we have 65,000 backers now, if you just move that up to something as small as 100,000, and you look at a modest spending like in Ultima Online which was usually about $10 per month, that’s 12 million a year. If you bump that up to 200,000, that’s $24 million in revenues. Those kinds of numbers I think for many roleplaying games including ours are well within reach.”

    65,000 backers... of which only 133 are playing the game right now.

    Yea, "old person who isn't with the times" is seriously correct, else you'd think RG would know about the low rate of initial-player-base retention that's common knowledge by now.
    I'd guess they might be setting a new record low for retention rates if those figures are remotely accurate.

    Almost starting to make Wildstar look good by comparison. ;)
    #sickburn


    What happened in May to generate that increase in numbers?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • d_20d_20 Member RarePosts: 1,878
    edited June 2017
    Weren't they selling casltes, lots and deeds, etc. for ridiculous amounts of money? I think that's the reason I was never interested in this game.



  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited June 2017
    Nevermind

  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    edited June 2017
    Nyctelios said:
    #sickburn


    What happened in May to generate that increase in numbers?

    That huge spike to over 500 players in 2016 was when the game soft launched into persistence.  There hasn't been a wipe in almost a full year now and there won't ever be another one.  The game is capless where skill progression is concerned for both combat and crafting and the economy is controlled by grinders.  So, when persistence happened everyone was like "yeah boi!" and then it all fell off once people realized LAUNCH had happened and the game wasn't changing... then Portalarium officially sanctioned (and promoted) RMT gold farming and selling and then the community discovered almost the entire game was 3rd party Unity assets, then we found out there were private investors even though we'd always been told that players were their only source of funding, and then even the most dedicated fans started getting banned for asking less than flattering questions about what was going on with KS promises, development, PVP, combat, combat, microtransactions, combat, combat, combat, RMT, offline single player, combat, storyline, and combat...  and now all that's left are a couple dozen whales that are still unwilling to accept reality because some of them have pledged as much as 50k-60k each betting on the RMT market.
    NycteliosjimmywolfAron_SwordmasterRawyn
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    Thanks. I was aware of the rest, just this soft launch I didn't know.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    edited June 2017
    Nyctelios said:
    Thanks. I was aware of the rest, just this soft launch I didn't know.
    There are more than a few controversial forum topics that were locked by community management (though many have been deleted) and they date a lot of significant events that contributed to the spike and drop after final wipe.  One of these days if I get a chance, I'll chart them out... wayback machine captured a lot of the heated discussions before devs and mods could sanitize them; like all the promises leading up to final wipe and then all the events that translate into negative player retention.
    NycteliosRawyn
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