We already have the English comprehension answer (analysing the words massively multiplayer online) which tells us it is all about the number of concurrent players within the same virtual environment and that the number must be massively bigger than standard multiplayer.
We've also had Raph Koster and Richard Bartle both come onto this site to specifically answer this question, and they both said it is about the number of concurrent players within the same virtual environment.
What the actual number is isn't set in stone, it is simply relative to average multiplayer online games. I can't remember which one it was, but either Raph or Richard set it as 256 concurrent players in the same virtual environment when they first started using the phrase 20 years ago. Obviously since then, average multiplayer figures have jumped a lot, so it maybe around 500+ these days. My personal criteria is 1000+.
But, whatever your number is, mobas etc are not MMOs. They don't fulfil any of the criteria for being massively multiplayer, hell, they are smaller than most multiplayer online games.
This really should be case closed by now, even if some websites keep getting it wrong.
Yah we need this again, because Eldurian, is butthurt that his beliefs don't match reality, which happened on this topic, (by me , none the less) an as opposed to just accepting that he is wrong, he is now polling the very people that he called ignorant, toxic, and stupid.. for some form of validation.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am laughing my ass off over this display.
The problem is, and this is becoming an 'as usual' situation with you, is you are wrong, you just keep typing until people get sick of reading your nonsense. That does not make you right, just too ill-informed to discuss with.
On the positive side at least you tried this time to back up your points with fact, and that is progress, however, still wrong. In no universe is an MOBA considered massive, except on a site that has nothing to do with actual gaming.
A while back, MMORPG.com started covering other genres of games. Bill Murphy explained he could "See the writing on the wall" whatever that is supposed to mean. I took it to mean that Bill was expecting and seeing an overall decline in actual MMORPG games so he branched his site out to start covering these other games. There was a slight hubbub about it at the time, but it has settled down now.
The problem is, and this was pointed out in this thread earlier, other sites consider this site to be something of an authority on the topic of MMORPG's. So when they see that MOBAs, FPS/TPS, Card, Strategy games, etc. are being covered here they assume, in their ignorance, that they all fall under the MMO and/or RPG category and most of them do not.
So quoting a site like that and trying to use it as evidence that your argument is correct is just a bad idea as your source material is in itself flawed. You should actually spend some time exploring the different genre's of games, as it appears that you do not play any of them, and it should clear up this particular discussion for you.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
We already have the English comprehension answer (analysing the words massively multiplayer online) which tells us it is all about the number of concurrent players within the same virtual environment and that the number must be massively bigger than standard multiplayer.
We've also had Raph Koster and Richard Bartle both come onto this site to specifically answer this question, and they both said it is about the number of concurrent players within the same virtual environment.
What the actual number is isn't set in stone, it is simply relative to average multiplayer online games. I can't remember which one it was, but either Raph or Richard set it as 256 concurrent players in the same virtual environment when they first started using the phrase 20 years ago. Obviously since then, average multiplayer figures have jumped a lot, so it maybe around 500+ these days. My personal criteria is 1000+.
But, whatever your number is, mobas etc are not MMOs. They don't fulfil any of the criteria for being massively multiplayer, hell, they are smaller than most multiplayer online games.
This really should be case closed by now, even if some websites keep getting it wrong.
They are Multiplayer Online, for sure, but that Massive is nowhere to be seen. Neither the scale(5v5 on a small map lol) nor the amount of players within a given match are massive(10 lol). In fact, even FPSes these days have higher capabilities(64+).
So, by that account, are FPS games MMOs?
I would say Planetside 1 and 2 would be, yes.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Certain sites such as Superdata and the MMORPG games list have chosen to list games such as League of Legends, Overwatch, Defense of the Ancients and Hearthstone as MMORPGs.
A search for the definition of MMORPGs yields this:
"massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players."
"massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-based computer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others"
Do you believe games such as League of Legends fit the bill?
Curious, what do you not understand about the word "Massively"? It means a lot no matter how you define it. Please explain how you think 5x5 matches are a lot? They are defined as MOBA for a reason, they do not fit the MMO definition by any reach of the imagination!
"Massive Multiplayer Online games (MMOs) encompass a wide range of game genres, including role-playing, shooters and, a recently emerged category called MOBAs"
"Massive Multiplayer Online games (MMOs) encompass a wide range of game genres, including role-playing, shooters and, a recently emerged category called MOBAs"
Calling a unicycle a multipassenger vehicle does not make it one. They just look like morons who don't know wtf a MMO is.
MOBAs are 10 player matches, they might as well list every multiplayer game...
If I was going to give you statistics on vegetables and included apples as a category it would be just as idiotic.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Certain sites such as Superdata and the MMORPG games list have chosen to list games such as League of Legends, Overwatch, Defense of the Ancients and Hearthstone as MMORPGs.
A search for the definition of MMORPGs yields this:
"massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players."
"massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-based computer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others"
Do you believe games such as League of Legends fit the bill?
Curious, what do you not understand about the word "Massively"? It means a lot no matter how you define it. Please explain how you think 5x5 matches are a lot? They are defined as MOBA for a reason, they do not fit the MMO definition by any reach of the imagination!
Of course they don't. And if you read down 1 post you would know I agree on that.
@Nyctelios- I made no assumptions about whether or not those games were MMOs in the original post to avoid biasing peoples answers. I didn't say they were. I didn't say they weren't. I just asked a question.
If you read every single post I've written since then you can see my assumption is these games are NOTMMOs. Including the 2nd post directly beneath the OP.
"Massive Multiplayer Online games (MMOs) encompass a wide range of game genres, including role-playing, shooters and, a recently emerged category called MOBAs"
The problem here is obvious if you look at the glaring mistake "Massive Multiplayer Online". Massive multiplayer is open to interperetation and is confusing, it's also wrong. MMO has NEVER been an acronym for Massive Multiplayer Online, it's MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online.
Massively is an adjective - defined as a word naming an attribute of a noun - the noun being multiplayer. Massively is a discription of the multiplayer aspect of the game, ie it's fucking HUGE in comparison to a multiplayer game.
And look at the source, Superdata again, who are clearly uninformed, ignorant of the facts and lax in doing their research. They are wrong.
They are Multiplayer Online, for sure, but that Massive is nowhere to be seen. Neither the scale(5v5 on a small map lol) nor the amount of players within a given match are massive(10 lol). In fact, even FPSes these days have higher capabilities(64+).
So, by that account, are FPS games MMOs?
I would say Planetside 1 and 2 would be, yes.
I am not sure there, part of the reason we call them MMOs is because SOE made them, I am not sure we would call them MMOs if someone like Valve made them instead.
They are certainly related to MMOs and therefor good on this site just like CORPGs like GW and DDO are closely related to MMO.
MOBAs however is more related to RTS games like Warcraft 3 then MMORPGs and so belong more on a RTS site or it's own site, it is certainly big enough for a Moba.com.
My point was all western MMOs are following a longterm trend of decline. DDO included though based on the graph it seems it's kind of just bottomed out and is making no substantial changes in either direction beyond general fluctuations. Average players in the 200s and peaks in the 400s doesn't make it a very big mover and shaker either way though. Assuming there is more than that outside Steam but that's still pretty small.
Oh.. is that all you wanted, to be proven wrong.
Well MMO's are alive and well, make no mistake, DOTA2 is 15 Million Accounts. Overwatch has sold 20 Million copies, HearthStone had 50 Million Players, and.. of course.. LoL.. with 100 Million.
nahhh.. not seeing a Downward Trend here at all... if anything, in comparison to games like DoaC, EQ, and EvE, wit it's 30K players... more people are paying modern western MMO's then ever before.
Is there anything else you would like to be wrong about?
There is the post that prompted the creation of the poll.
Because another poster threw these games at me as evidence the MMO genre is growing, and given he was one of the people who hopped on the "this community is experts" bandwagon I decided to prove him wrong with both data and community opinion.
And now you are freaking out and swearing at me because I'm telling you I don't believe something someone else was using as a weapon to argue against me.
Learn to read. Good god man. I'm not even trying to have an argument here but you seem intent to escalate this.
Calling a unicycle a multipassenger vehicle does not make it one. They just look like morons who don't know wtf a MMO is.
Well I find it interesting, when we call them morons for the way they describe MOBAs as a category that falls under what is MMO, we are calling morons to who created a professional in-depth study of the MMO/MOBA market.
My question falls, are they really morons or is there logic and reasoning to it?
More and more games use the MMO tag, we look at Ark Survival Evolved and others, we can consider them illegitimate but the definition is being stretched.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Calling a unicycle a multipassenger vehicle does not make it one. They just look like morons who don't know wtf a MMO is.
Well I find it interesting, when we call them morons for the way they describe MOBAs as a category that falls under what is MMO, we are calling morons to who created a professional in-depth study of the MMO/MOBA market.
My question falls, are they really morons or is there logic and reasoning to it?
More and more games use the MMO tag, we look at Ark Survival Evolved and others, we can consider them illegitimate but the definition is being stretched.
Would you consider 5v5 massively multiplayer in any way?
How about 1v1 because they list hearthstone as a MMO.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
They are Multiplayer Online, for sure, but that Massive is nowhere to be seen. Neither the scale(5v5 on a small map lol) nor the amount of players within a given match are massive(10 lol). In fact, even FPSes these days have higher capabilities(64+).
So, by that account, are FPS games MMOs?
I would say Planetside 1 and 2 would be, yes.
I am not sure there, part of the reason we call them MMOs is because SOE made them, I am not sure we would call them MMOs if someone like Valve made them instead.
They are certainly related to MMOs and therefor good on this site just like CORPGs like GW and DDO are closely related to MMO.
MOBAs however is more related to RTS games like Warcraft 3 then MMORPGs and so belong more on a RTS site or it's own site, it is certainly big enough for a Moba.com.
How not, though? The Planetside games (and Firefall) are online, and they have multiplayer at a massive scale with semi-open worlds.
Imho Moba games are Multiplayer but not Like MMO, they are also called ARTS or Action real-time strategy game. They are similar in terms of the word "multiplayer" but not in the sense of MMO
Calling a unicycle a multipassenger vehicle does not make it one. They just look like morons who don't know wtf a MMO is.
Well I find it interesting, when we call them morons for the way they describe MOBAs as a category that falls under what is MMO, we are calling morons to who created a professional in-depth study of the MMO/MOBA market.
My question falls, are they really morons or is there logic and reasoning to it?
More and more games use the MMO tag, we look at Ark Survival Evolved and others, we can consider them illegitimate but the definition is being stretched.
Would you consider 5v5 massively multiplayer in any way?
How about 1v1 because they list hearthstone as a MMO.
This is exactly why you can't trust any companies anymore to tell you what genre their game falls under. The only way you can tell is by getting a gameplay preview from a regular player who is not being paid to do the review.
I wouldn't say 'any company' but certainly when it comes to Superdata, you can be sure that any argument based on any of their 'facts' or 'statements' will be fundamentally flawed, if not hillariously so.
I wouldn't say 'any company' but certainly when it comes to Superdata, you can be sure that any argument based on any of their 'facts' or 'statements' will be fundamentally flawed, if not hillariously so.
I remember when the gaming community voted Warframe as the Best Action MMO in the 2015 MMO Readers' Choice Awards.
I think it's the "popular opinion" that does drive changes to what is/what isn't, just like the topic of what is Indie, or what is AAA, etc...
I do also think the MMO is starting to go past how many players can be at the time in the same instance, as more advanced networking systems appear allowing thousands of players in a single game world yet only a few dozen can physically be in the same instance at one time.
lol .. talking about flogging a dead horse. People here are still debating what is and is not a MMO?
Just use the game list here. I doubt most gamers care about the minute differences between a MOBA or a "true" (tm) MMO.
I bet when Destiny 2 is released, most MMO sites will "claim it" as their own, since they really need some big exciting new games to talk about. MMO sites may as well embrace everything that is online to survive.
lol .. talking about flogging a dead horse. People here are still debating what is and is not a MMO?
Just use the game list here. I doubt most gamers care about the minute differences between a MOBA or a "true" (tm) MMO.
I bet when Destiny 2 is released, most MMO sites will "claim it" as their own, since they really need some big exciting new games to talk about. MMO sites may as well embrace everything that is online to survive.
lol .. talking about flogging a dead horse. People here are still debating what is and is not a MMO?
Just use the game list here. I doubt most gamers care about the minute differences between a MOBA or a "true" (tm) MMO.
I bet when Destiny 2 is released, most MMO sites will "claim it" as their own, since they really need some big exciting new games to talk about. MMO sites may as well embrace everything that is online to survive.
The game list here is wrong, just like Superdata is wrong and just like you are wrong. It's also the duty and moral obligation of older, wiser heads to educate the young and correct them when they need it.
Comments
On the positive side at least you tried this time to back up your points with fact, and that is progress, however, still wrong. In no universe is an MOBA considered massive, except on a site that has nothing to do with actual gaming.
A while back, MMORPG.com started covering other genres of games. Bill Murphy explained he could "See the writing on the wall" whatever that is supposed to mean. I took it to mean that Bill was expecting and seeing an overall decline in actual MMORPG games so he branched his site out to start covering these other games. There was a slight hubbub about it at the time, but it has settled down now.
The problem is, and this was pointed out in this thread earlier, other sites consider this site to be something of an authority on the topic of MMORPG's. So when they see that MOBAs, FPS/TPS, Card, Strategy games, etc. are being covered here they assume, in their ignorance, that they all fall under the MMO and/or RPG category and most of them do not.
So quoting a site like that and trying to use it as evidence that your argument is correct is just a bad idea as your source material is in itself flawed. You should actually spend some time exploring the different genre's of games, as it appears that you do not play any of them, and it should clear up this particular discussion for you.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
On such studies, MOBAs are embedded into the MMO statistics, you can check it here: https://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/mmo-market/
"Massive Multiplayer Online games (MMOs) encompass a wide range of game genres, including role-playing, shooters and, a recently emerged category called MOBAs"
MOBAs are 10 player matches, they might as well list every multiplayer game...
If I was going to give you statistics on vegetables and included apples as a category it would be just as idiotic.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/If you read every single post I've written since then you can see my assumption is these games are NOT MMOs. Including the 2nd post directly beneath the OP.
Stop trying to argue with me like I disagree.
The problem here is obvious if you look at the glaring mistake "Massive Multiplayer Online". Massive multiplayer is open to interperetation and is confusing, it's also wrong. MMO has NEVER been an acronym for Massive Multiplayer Online, it's MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online.
Massively is an adjective - defined as a word naming an attribute of a noun - the noun being multiplayer. Massively is a discription of the multiplayer aspect of the game, ie it's fucking HUGE in comparison to a multiplayer game.
And look at the source, Superdata again, who are clearly uninformed, ignorant of the facts and lax in doing their research. They are wrong.
They are certainly related to MMOs and therefor good on this site just like CORPGs like GW and DDO are closely related to MMO.
MOBAs however is more related to RTS games like Warcraft 3 then MMORPGs and so belong more on a RTS site or it's own site, it is certainly big enough for a Moba.com.
There is the post that prompted the creation of the poll.
Because another poster threw these games at me as evidence the MMO genre is growing, and given he was one of the people who hopped on the "this community is experts" bandwagon I decided to prove him wrong with both data and community opinion.
And now you are freaking out and swearing at me because I'm telling you I don't believe something someone else was using as a weapon to argue against me.
Learn to read. Good god man. I'm not even trying to have an argument here but you seem intent to escalate this.
My question falls, are they really morons or is there logic and reasoning to it?
More and more games use the MMO tag, we look at Ark Survival Evolved and others, we can consider them illegitimate but the definition is being stretched.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
How about 1v1 because they list hearthstone as a MMO.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Follow my Blog at: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/123bentilador
I think it's the "popular opinion" that does drive changes to what is/what isn't, just like the topic of what is Indie, or what is AAA, etc...
I do also think the MMO is starting to go past how many players can be at the time in the same instance, as more advanced networking systems appear allowing thousands of players in a single game world yet only a few dozen can physically be in the same instance at one time.
mmorpg junkie since 1999
Just use the game list here. I doubt most gamers care about the minute differences between a MOBA or a "true" (tm) MMO.
I bet when Destiny 2 is released, most MMO sites will "claim it" as their own, since they really need some big exciting new games to talk about. MMO sites may as well embrace everything that is online to survive.
It's why they're called MOBA's and not MMO's.
I mean really....
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You're welcome.