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I thought the switch to Lumberyard was completed in 2 days?

Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
edited May 2017 in Star Citizen
When i was looking for more information about v3.0 i found something rather strange.



I remember when the Engine switch news came out that nothing had to be changed and it was, as they said, a like for like, merge with no issues that was done in a record time of 2 days. I just read the new report and i saw that there are problems with the Lumberyard version and the Star Engine version. I am a little confused because they said going forward there will be no issues since both engines are based on the same version.

I remember Ben Parry showing us a drawing how easy and straight forward it was. Maybe an engine change is not as easy as they made us believe it to be?

Correct me if i am wrong, but if they now have problems making the Lumberyard fog work with their system then they have not changed engines at all.

Anyway, i hope they solve these issues because i want to join when 3.0 releases.


“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Post edited by Risc1911 on
MaxBaconOdeezee

Comments

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    There are no issues until you discover an issue ;-)

    There only needs to be one coder that did not follow established procedures in one of the code branches to have a glitch in a system somewhere when you plug it into Lumberyard.  One goes back, reviews the code, corrects the code, merges again, tests, iterates, signs off.

    Its only a subtask, with enough buffer at present to have no effect on the critical time path for the overall Alpha 3.0 delivery date.  The "completion date moved back" mentioned in the OP is for the subtask only, not the overall Alpha 3.0 patch.


    Have fun
    Risc1911GdemamiTheScavenger
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,493
    edited May 2017
    There is simply no approach on where a new feature added to the LY engine would not need to be made work in one heavily modified copy of the engine.

    That's just the nature of it, as you need to rewrite and develop your own code, the higher the chances a new piece of code on the stock engine will not be compatible on with your changes on the fly.
    Risc1911
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Its also possible that they would have "discovered" whatever issue they have if they hadn't switched to Lumberyard. Sometimes things get used as whipping posts. See @DMKano 's point above.
    Risc1911
  • Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
    MaxBacon said:
    There is simply no approach on where a new feature added to the LY engine would not need to be made work in one heavily modified copy of the engine.

    That's just the nature of it, as you need to rewrite and develop your own code, the higher the chances a new piece of code on the stock engine will not be compatible on with your changes on the fly.
    When did they heavily modify Lumberyard? I thought the switch was done in 2 days?

    Sorry, but you don't understand how revision control works. It's not a new feature. Even if it was, the whole point of switching to a new engine is to create a new fork so you can get all upstream changes without affecting your code base at all. If your upstream adds a new feature it will not affect you. Revision control was is designed for that scenario specifically.

    Either they have switched to Lumberyard or they have not. Judging from this report, they have not actually switched at all and are still re-writing their old engine to include all Lumberyard features.
    MaxBaconOdeezee
    “I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
    the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
  • Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
    edited May 2017
    gervaise1 said:
    Its also possible that they would have "discovered" whatever issue they have if they hadn't switched to Lumberyard. Sometimes things get used as whipping posts. See @DMKano 's point above.

    It's also possible aliens have landed and deleted their implementation because they don't like space games. /smh

    It specifically says implementing the Lumberyard fog to work with our system.

    Lumberyard != Their System.

    Pretty clear to me.
    MaxBacon
    “I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
    the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,493
    edited May 2017
    Risc1911 said:
    When did they heavily modify Lumberyard? I thought the switch was done in 2 days?

    Sorry, but you don't understand how revision control works. It's not a new feature. Even if it was, the whole point of switching to a new engine is to create a new fork so you can get all upstream changes without affecting your code base at all. If your upstream adds a new feature it will not affect you. Revision control was is designed for that scenario specifically.

    Either they have switched to Lumberyard or they have not. Judging from this report, they have not actually switched at all and are still re-writing their old engine to include all Lumberyard features.
    They did keep their heavily modified Engine, and integrated it within the AWS platform and other bits.

    They did not scrap or completely convert their code to the code they ALREADY HAD. Lumberyard was by large majority the same stock Cryengine code that CIG already had (changing Cryengine to Cryengine much?!), so hence obvious the best take was just pull from it instead of merge with it.

    They haven't neither merged StarEngine's code with Lumberyard, neither are doing so. They have just picked features from wanted/want from it, integrated them, and rebranded their engine to be under Amazon's name.

    As Ben Parry illustrated well:




    Resuming: Nothing changed but the name and the platform but the fact they will be pulling from LY's codebase instead of CE's codebase. 

    They will be not merging LY's tech and features they do not need or want within StarEngine as that is a waste of time.

    Risc1911 said:

    Sorry, but you don't understand how revision control works. It's not a new feature. Even if it was, the whole point of switching to a new engine is to create a new fork so you can get all upstream changes without affecting your code base at all. If your upstream adds a new feature it will not affect you. Revision control was is designed for that scenario specifically.
    You're dreaming right there.

    Even when they were using Cryengine and Cryengine updated, they still had to work on implementing new features/tech with their copy of the engine, it wouldn't be compatible on the fly with something they are continuously modifying.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    Risc1911BabuinixGdemami
  • Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
    edited May 2017
    MaxBacon said:

    As Ben Parry illustrated well:




    Risc1911 said:

    Sorry, but you don't understand how revision control works. It's not a new feature. Even if it was, the whole point of switching to a new engine is to create a new fork so you can get all upstream changes without affecting your code base at all. If your upstream adds a new feature it will not affect you. Revision control was is designed for that scenario specifically.
    You're dreaming right there.

    That's the same Ben Parry Senior Graphics Programmer that does not know if they have one or multiple suns. Yeah, he sounds trustworthy.

    Besides, that picture illustrates exactly what i said. They forked LY and are now on the Lumberyard upstream abandoning their old SC fork. You don't seem to know how revision control works. It's not a big deal, not many people do know. Just don't pretend to know and don't tell people that know that they are dreaming. It's insulting and condescending. Keep it on topic please.

    Remains the fact they have not switched to Lumberyard. This is what i guessed happened. Thanks for confirming.
    MaxBacon
    “I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
    the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,493
    Risc1911 said:
    They forked LY and are now on the Lumberyard upstream abandoning their old SC fork. You don't seem to know how revision control works. It's not a big deal, not many people do know. Just don't pretend to know and don't tell people that know that they are dreaming. It's insulting and condescending. Keep it on topic please.
    They are doing no such thing. They are not converting or merging their code to LY, StarEngine is the main thing here.

    Again, they are pulling things they want from LY and implement them on SE and that is all. They are not rewriting their old engine to include all LY's features.

    I know what the revision control is, and yes I stand what I said, the fact you will get all the changes in a way you can review, nitpick and change what you might merge, etc... means nothing on an engine that is 50% of custom code by now, hence a feature LY iterated like Volumetric Fog still needs one proper implementation process within their modified code, and that was my point.
    Risc1911Gdemami
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,756

    Already explained, both Star Engine and Lumberyard derive from CryEngine.

    Engines keep getting upgraded and new features are added. When you have the best engineers working side by side like CIG and Amazon have you are going to push tech in ways never seen before! That's why Star Citizen keeps getting better and better and Amazon used it to push it's engine and brand forward!



    Great minds think alike and get more talented people to their project, untalented dev's and sad individuals lure haters, trolls and armchair dev's into fights they cant win lol

    Risc1911
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:

    Already explained, both Star Engine and Lumberyard derive from CryEngine.

    Engines keep getting upgraded and new features are added. When you have the best engineers working side by side like CIG and Amazon have you are going to push tech in ways never seen before! That's why Star Citizen keeps getting better and better and Amazon used it to push it's engine and brand forward!



    Great minds think alike and get more talented people to their project, untalented dev's and sad individuals lure haters, trolls and armchair dev's into fights they cant win lol

    How are they pushing tech exactly? Things I've seen CIG do have been done by others before
    DistopiaRisc1911
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Kefo said:

    How are they pushing tech exactly? Things I've seen CIG do have been done by others before
    My how narratives change, for months folks harped on and on about the things they wanna do were not possible (that was a big part of DS's whole campaign). Now it's all been done before. 
    ErillionTheScavengerMaxBaconTorval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Distopia said:
    Kefo said:

    How are they pushing tech exactly? Things I've seen CIG do have been done by others before
    My how narratives change, for months folks harped on and on about the things they wanna do were not possible (that was a big part of DS's whole campaign). Now it's all been done before. 
    Everyone keeps saying that they are pushing the tech beyond what anyone has done before and whenever I ask how have they done this I'm met with silence, non answers or deflection to Derek Smart. 

    I suppose i should congratulate you on hitting 2 out of the 3.
    DistopiaRisc1911MaxBaconkikoodutroa8
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited May 2017
    Kefo said:
    Distopia said:

    Everyone keeps saying that they are pushing the tech beyond what anyone has done before and whenever I ask how have they done this I'm met with silence, non answers or deflection to Derek Smart. 

    I suppose i should congratulate you on hitting 2 out of the 3.
    You might have a point if I made a claim they were pushing tech to new levels , I didn't..(any comment I made on that would be purely ignorant of facts, because I don't know) 

    I was just commenting on the irony from where the narrative started, and where it's ended up. Are you denying that used to be a huge factor aimed at this project (the improbability of being able to pull their ideas off) ? 

    I just found the question to be funny.. I'm sorry carry on...
    Torval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    MaxBacon said:
    Again, they are pulling things they want from LY and implement them on SE and that is all.
    ...source?
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,493
    Gdemami said:
    ...source?


    Talking with him days ago about this exact topic.

    The full discussions on this were pretty much had on the Frontier Forums where this CIG Developer clashed with Derek Smart that claims they are still migrating their engine to LY, and he tried to explain just that. That, is somewhere in the middle FD's SC thread.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    But that is nothing you said...
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,532
    aaaaah, yes, volumetric fog :pensive:

    promised so often, and by now, i think there are like... 2 games with it? :)
    the one promo rts and the other game i mist likely don't know

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Distopia said:
    Kefo said:
    Distopia said:

    Everyone keeps saying that they are pushing the tech beyond what anyone has done before and whenever I ask how have they done this I'm met with silence, non answers or deflection to Derek Smart. 

    I suppose i should congratulate you on hitting 2 out of the 3.
    You might have a point if I made a claim they were pushing tech to new levels , I didn't..(any comment I made on that would be purely ignorant of facts, because I don't know) 

    I was just commenting on the irony from where the narrative started, and where it's ended up. Are you denying that used to be a huge factor aimed at this project (the improbability of being able to pull their ideas off) ? 

    I just found the question to be funny.. I'm sorry carry on...
    I never said you made the claim either I just pointed out that you pulled the trick the usual suspects do when I ask how have they pushed the tech. Although I can see where the confusion comes from since I said everyone but I don't mean literally everyone :wink:
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,589
    edited May 2017
    Simple answer:

    Chris Roberts lied .... again. Occams Razor people. Come on now.

    It was just a compound lie added onto the first one where he claimed that at the time they had been working with LY for almost a year, which at present would be nearly 18 months. So after 18 months they are still having difficulties? They supposedly rebuilt the engine they were integrating with LY in two years.

    Either way he lied and even if he didnt it definitely shows that this engine, even with whatever Amazon has thrown into it in cash is complete garbage especially as an MMO platform.
    GdemamiMaxBaconErillion
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    Seems lot of new players joined the discussion, here's some videos to get you started:

    How to play Star Citizen:


    What is Star Citizen:



    ErillionGdemami
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited May 2017
    Reading the comment:
    Risc1911 said:
    gervaise1 said:
    Its also possible that they would have "discovered" whatever issue they have if they hadn't switched to Lumberyard. Sometimes things get used as whipping posts. See @DMKano 's point above.

    It's also possible aliens have landed and deleted their implementation because they don't like space games. /smh

    It specifically says implementing the Lumberyard fog to work with our system.

    Lumberyard != Their System.

    Pretty clear to me.

    I was being - sort of - flippant! Sort of.

    To enlighten you - since it seems to me you are not at all clear:

    LY does not equal "their system".

    Their system used to be: RSI bespoke + Cry.
    Their system is now: RSI bespoke + LY.
    LY = Amazon bespoke + Cry
    So their system now = RSI bespoke + Cry + Amazon bespoke.

    Key point:
    RSI have continued to work on RSI bespoke.
    Amazon have continued to work on Amazon bespoke.

    Taken in context with the comment

    "volumetric fog aw(a)y from LY" - key word aw(a)y

    This suggests to me that they were taking a feature from Amazon bespoke and linking/using /getting it to work with RSI bespoke". And - for whatever reason - they hit a glitch.


    Which highlights the benefit - for RSI - of going with LY - they get to use features without having to develop. It also highlights that glitches are possible.

    And the glitches could be because of the way the Amazon folk have coded the new stuff or - possibly - down to the way that RSI developed a bit of their bespoke code. Hence my comment was only sort of flippant.

    Edit: So in no way does this mean that anyone lied when they said moving to LY only took a couple of days. 
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
    ErillionOdeezee
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