Red_Thomas said: They haven't mentioned it, but I think they should sell items to increase your chances in the cash shop, too.
That would be a huge turn off for many players. A game with box price and subscription that is mandatory for competitive people should be able to avoid paid advantages in shop. Selling buildings and parcels already raises some questions but these offers are at least limited. Selling power to win more loot in every single campaign would slap a huge p2w stigma on game and company.
Only from idiots who don't know what P2W really is. There are always those people who think that anything that isn't free is P2W.
At the end of the day, it's a business and needs to be profitable. If they're selling something and money equates to time, then that's something I'm pretty much always for. Some people would complain, but it'd effectively allow you to pay a little cash to balance against your lack of time in the game.
Irrelevant unless I could convince them to do it, though.
If they're selling something and money equates to time, then that's something I'm pretty much always for. Some people would complain, but it'd effectively allow you to pay a little cash to balance against your lack of time in the game.
I've never agreed with that argument.
If someone plays a game very little, they should not be on an equal footing with people who play it a lot. If you play golf twice a month, you should not expect to be able to take on Tiger Woods, or even a semi-professional player. If you could pay 100$ / month, knowing 2 games of golf a month will make you comparable to a Tiger Woods, the whole premise of professional golf would be very shallow in my opinion.
Money does not equate to time. People spend time on different things - and generally, people get better at what they do. If someone spends 10 hours a day playing Crowfall, they should have a large advantage over others. Similarly, if someone spends 10 hours a day doing investment banking, they should have an advantage over a Crowfall player on the markets. Wanting "catch-up" mechanics is the same as walking into Wall Street and saying "Please make me an above average investor - I didn't have the time to get the experience, as I was playing video games."
On another note, it rarely works. Selling boosts often leads to an even bigger gap between players. You end up with people who don't have time and don't have money (these can't compete at all). Then you have people who either have time, or have money (who may or may not be equal, depending on the strength of the boost). And then you have people who have both time and money, who have the biggest advantage.
Boosts are ok as a payment model. They don't really lead to good communities though.
Woot! Thanks Red, I've leveled up to insane. That's a major gain from when we were just called crazy for building our own engine by our friends in the industry!!!
In all seriousness, gratz to Crowfall and its backers, the Unity and graphical upgrades are, IMO, a smart move by ACE. Well done.
I still think you're crazy, dude.
At the end of the day, it's all costs:benefits. I'm sure guys like you look at it and see some very clear weight on building your own engine, and frankly you've been successful at it. There's no denying that.
On the flip side, though. If you didn't have to invest development resources in all that back-end development, and were able to focus on game design and more complex game systems... It really seems hard to justify the expense. Of course, if you already have guys experienced in that, have a head start on it, and all the other tons of variables that go into what form of development effort has the biggest impact... There are always going to be plenty of situations where it makes sense.
As a general rule, I think it's a pretty bad idea for studios to attempt their own engine. You'd definitely know better, but I'm pretty comfortable with that statement.
Hey wait, did you just downgrade me from insane? I'm depressed now.
The difference for us, and why we are building our own engine was that we were/are going for large-scale battles (1k+). In 2013, that was impossible to do via Unity/Crytek/Unreal. ACE and CSE went two very different and quite interesting routes in our Kickstarters. In order to deliver on our game, we needed to try to make our own engine, in the case of ACE, they weren't going for that same scale game, they were/are are focusing on other things first and foremost. Neither of our approaches is right nor wrong. We can both fail, we can both succeed. We could even fail in unexpected ways which always makes game development, and especially MMORPG development, much more challenging.
And you're absolutely right, in most cases it's a bad idea to make your own engine. OTOH, I'm sure the CEO of Improbable is probably a very happy man now.
As per above, gratz to ACE and its backers, I'm sure that most of them (you can never make everybody happy as I always say about our updates) very happy with this update!
Cheers!
I've kept an eye on Improbable. Still waiting to see something.
So are all the CoE backers who believed the Dec 2017 release date
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I was really interested by these changes and went on the site to checkout their pledge packages, however was shocked to see they have gone money mad as per "Chronicles of Elyria".
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
This has put me right off. Can't someone make a game these days, that you pay for and that's it! bring back subscriptions if this is the result of buy to play.
Crowfall continues to have an interesting development cycle and I like seeing all the updates they release. I've not been following it particularly closely so the class changes and the discipline stuff was new info for me and looks interesting.
As @wizardry says, I don't have any faith in the Unity engine. It's a good enough engine for single player games, maybe even small scale multiplayer, but an MMO? This engine needs to be able to support 200+ players fighting it out in vaguely open world settings, with a fast paced action combat system. I just don't see that happening. Most MMOs fail to use a suitable engine for large scale content and thus fail to deliver on the unique selling point of MMOs. It is why I'm a fan of CU as, despite the risks, they are at least building an engine specifically to support massively-multiplayer gameplay.
I won't be playing Crowfall personally as there are too many features in it that aren't to my taste, but I still hope it succeeds and that it's fun for those who do play it.
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
Will the parcels and castles and whatnot that go for thousands of dollars in their shop be obtainable with in-game currency?
Or do we just face yet another elitist greed?
You can craft them in-game using in-game resources and, as I said in the other post, parcels and buildings that you buy from the store can only be used in Eternal Kingdoms. In the campaigns, where the real battles will happen, players will have to harvest resources along with their faction/guild mates, use them to build defenses and wage war on each other.
I think this game might break my no PvP rule. Do you lose a lot when you die in PvP how far back do get set back to and is it full loot PvP ?
They are doing so many great things I don't want to miss out and I saw the recent graphic thing just posted and I really do like wheat I see but those that supported this game must be pleased.
From what I know, there will be PvE servers.
There will not be PvE servers, not in the traditional sense. There will be Campaign Worlds, which will include a variety of PvP rulesets, and there will be the Eternal Kingdoms, which are basically instanced housing on steroids. Resource spawns in the EKs will be limited to the most basic resources. Mob spawns will be limited across both EKs and CWs. There will be no dungeons or raids, no quests. Mobs won't drop loot. They will drop some stuff used in crafting, but that's it, and they exist mainly to increase the danger in the world. If someone is looking to just PvE against mobs in this game, they are going to be disappointed.
Red_Thomas said: They haven't mentioned it, but I think they should sell items to increase your chances in the cash shop, too.
That would be a huge turn off for many players. A game with box price and subscription that is mandatory for competitive people should be able to avoid paid advantages in shop. Selling buildings and parcels already raises some questions but these offers are at least limited. Selling power to win more loot in every single campaign would slap a huge p2w stigma on game and company.
Only from idiots who don't know what P2W really is. There are always those people who think that anything that isn't free is P2W.
At the end of the day, it's a business and needs to be profitable. If they're selling something and money equates to time, then that's something I'm pretty much always for. Some people would complain, but it'd effectively allow you to pay a little cash to balance against your lack of time in the game.
Irrelevant unless I could convince them to do it, though.
Items that enhance anything in the shop would be a instant turn off to a lot of players. Despite your argument that it is not pay-to-win, it most definitely is. It just cheapens the game. There are plenty of games out there that do this, go play one of those if that is what you want. I think these developers grasp that it is not a well liked mechanism.
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
A player who is able to switch his class during the campaign is more powerful than a player who has to constantly play same class whether he's gathering stuff, raiding the enemy, or trying to defend a castle.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
A player who is able to switch his class during the campaign is more powerful than a player who has to constantly play same class whether he's gathering stuff, raiding the enemy, or trying to defend a castle.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
Having a sub is not P2W.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
It's not really pay 2 win because the land and the huge castle located in Eternal Kingdoms won't increase the character's fighting power. It's like buying a magnificent house in a housing instance for real money, you'll get bragging rights for owning that house but you can't really translate that house into advantage in a fight.
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
A player who is able to switch his class during the campaign is more powerful than a player who has to constantly play same class whether he's gathering stuff, raiding the enemy, or trying to defend a castle.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
The player who switches between 3 class will need 3 times the gear than the player who only plays 1.
I have been waiting so long for a True PVP Game and this seems to be it.
The PVP in a mmo should begin after character creation.
100% agreed. If you are making a PvP game then allow for it from the onset. Build the game around that experience.
I remember playing Lineage 2 and pvping in the starter areas. The game even had low level pvp clans that had wars with other low level clans. I really miss that in games today. Now you have to wait until high level to pvp in most games.
I have never backed a game but this might be my first.
Items that enhance anything in the shop would be a instant turn off to a lot of players. Despite your argument that it is not pay-to-win, it most definitely is. It just cheapens the game. There are plenty of games out there that do this, go play one of those if that is what you want. I think these developers grasp that it is not a well liked mechanism.
Sorry, mate. That's just not true at all. Western audiences have never really had to deal with actual pay-to-win, which is one of the reasons the term gets misused so often. I lived in Korea for a while, now THEY have pay to win and don't even pretend otherwise.
There's a very specific litmus test for pay-to-win, and it's a really easy one. Does the paying customer get any unfair competitive advantage over another customer of equal advancement. This is in terms of enhancements to skills through bonuses, equipment, ect. If a non-paying player can achieve the exact same competitive capability as a paying player with nothing more than a greater time investment, then the only exchange has been time and it's not pay-to-win.
And though it's not where @laxie was going with it, the point made was on the nose. A player that purchased his way to end-game content, verses a player that worked his way there will virtually always be inferior due to lack of experience. The golf point was dead on, too.
Two guys start golfing. One just goes and hacks around until he starts getting good. The other pays the club pro for lessons (which I actually have done) and spends less time to the point of not being embarrassing. A guy that worked his way there will actually be better than me due to having more practical knowledge, but I paid money to spend less time on the course getting there.
I'm really busy, but I have money. I have friends who have more time, but I want to be able to play with them. VIP/exp bonuses are how companies balance that out.
Have they updated that date yet? I mean, almost 6 months in, still not in testing of any kind as far as I know. Dont see how a launch by Dec with proper testing is possible right now.
They've been testing for quite a while now... You might check your inbox if you backed the game. If they haven't invited all backers to something yet, I'd be really surprised.
They're not only testing, they're really close to something semi-persistent. I'm kind of expecting the game to go 24/7 in the next couple months. That's me guessing, though. No devs and given any clear indication on that.
They have the PvE EKs up, and personal EKs are online. They have PvP servers online, and should start testing dynamic PvP servers any day. The links between the two and victory conditions will be next in, and that's pretty much the game. Their dynamic campaign system really means they COULD be live and then patch in changes over time. They won't do that, but the fact that they could means a slip on the release date by very much would be pretty surprising.
Comments
At the end of the day, it's a business and needs to be profitable. If they're selling something and money equates to time, then that's something I'm pretty much always for. Some people would complain, but it'd effectively allow you to pay a little cash to balance against your lack of time in the game.
Irrelevant unless I could convince them to do it, though.
Rock solid update.
If someone plays a game very little, they should not be on an equal footing with people who play it a lot. If you play golf twice a month, you should not expect to be able to take on Tiger Woods, or even a semi-professional player. If you could pay 100$ / month, knowing 2 games of golf a month will make you comparable to a Tiger Woods, the whole premise of professional golf would be very shallow in my opinion.
Money does not equate to time. People spend time on different things - and generally, people get better at what they do. If someone spends 10 hours a day playing Crowfall, they should have a large advantage over others. Similarly, if someone spends 10 hours a day doing investment banking, they should have an advantage over a Crowfall player on the markets. Wanting "catch-up" mechanics is the same as walking into Wall Street and saying "Please make me an above average investor - I didn't have the time to get the experience, as I was playing video games."
On another note, it rarely works. Selling boosts often leads to an even bigger gap between players. You end up with people who don't have time and don't have money (these can't compete at all). Then you have people who either have time, or have money (who may or may not be equal, depending on the strength of the boost). And then you have people who have both time and money, who have the biggest advantage.
Boosts are ok as a payment model. They don't really lead to good communities though.
ooops
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I must have missed this, but when did it become acceptable to have pay to win features in a game such as parcels of land priced at £4,559.99 or an Imperial Palace at £5,919.99, never mind the tax free parcels of land with the more expensive pledge packages priced at £219.99 upwards.
This has put me right off. Can't someone make a game these days, that you pay for and that's it! bring back subscriptions if this is the result of buy to play.
As @wizardry says, I don't have any faith in the Unity engine. It's a good enough engine for single player games, maybe even small scale multiplayer, but an MMO? This engine needs to be able to support 200+ players fighting it out in vaguely open world settings, with a fast paced action combat system. I just don't see that happening. Most MMOs fail to use a suitable engine for large scale content and thus fail to deliver on the unique selling point of MMOs. It is why I'm a fan of CU as, despite the risks, they are at least building an engine specifically to support massively-multiplayer gameplay.
I won't be playing Crowfall personally as there are too many features in it that aren't to my taste, but I still hope it succeeds and that it's fun for those who do play it.
Will the parcels and castles and whatnot that go for thousands of dollars in their shop be obtainable with in-game currency?
Or do we just face yet another elitist greed?
beLIEve
The only pay 2 win thing they are selling will be subscriptions, subscribers will be able to train skills faster and thus should get more powerful characters than non-subscribers.
The first part is correct. The stuff you buy in the store is only used in the Eternal Kingdoms. Campaign worlds have strict import rules and you can't import parcels or buildings or anything like that. Campaigns are where the real PvP happens. That's where the spoils of war will be won, where the sieges will take place, where the higher quality resources will be obtained.
The second part is not correct. The VIP subscription does not enable you to create more powerful characters than non-subscribers. If you have VIP, you will be able to train 3 classes at once. If you don't, you will only be able to train 1 class at a time. Since you can only play 1 class at a time, you won't be any more powerful than anyone else if you have a VIP subscription. All it does it give you more options/flexibility.
You can craft them in-game using in-game resources and, as I said in the other post, parcels and buildings that you buy from the store can only be used in Eternal Kingdoms. In the campaigns, where the real battles will happen, players will have to harvest resources along with their faction/guild mates, use them to build defenses and wage war on each other.
There will not be PvE servers, not in the traditional sense. There will be Campaign Worlds, which will include a variety of PvP rulesets, and there will be the Eternal Kingdoms, which are basically instanced housing on steroids. Resource spawns in the EKs will be limited to the most basic resources. Mob spawns will be limited across both EKs and CWs. There will be no dungeons or raids, no quests. Mobs won't drop loot. They will drop some stuff used in crafting, but that's it, and they exist mainly to increase the danger in the world. If someone is looking to just PvE against mobs in this game, they are going to be disappointed.
More options and flexibility can be translated into more power.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Having played the alpha builds quite a bit I am incredibly excited about the addition of additional depth and more working systems.
The player who switches between 3 class will need 3 times the gear than the player who only plays 1.
The PVP in a mmo should begin after character creation.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I remember playing Lineage 2 and pvping in the starter areas. The game even had low level pvp clans that had wars with other low level clans. I really miss that in games today. Now you have to wait until high level to pvp in most games.
I have never backed a game but this might be my first.
There's a very specific litmus test for pay-to-win, and it's a really easy one. Does the paying customer get any unfair competitive advantage over another customer of equal advancement. This is in terms of enhancements to skills through bonuses, equipment, ect. If a non-paying player can achieve the exact same competitive capability as a paying player with nothing more than a greater time investment, then the only exchange has been time and it's not pay-to-win.
And though it's not where @laxie was going with it, the point made was on the nose. A player that purchased his way to end-game content, verses a player that worked his way there will virtually always be inferior due to lack of experience. The golf point was dead on, too.
Two guys start golfing. One just goes and hacks around until he starts getting good. The other pays the club pro for lessons (which I actually have done) and spends less time to the point of not being embarrassing. A guy that worked his way there will actually be better than me due to having more practical knowledge, but I paid money to spend less time on the course getting there.
I'm really busy, but I have money. I have friends who have more time, but I want to be able to play with them. VIP/exp bonuses are how companies balance that out.
They're not only testing, they're really close to something semi-persistent. I'm kind of expecting the game to go 24/7 in the next couple months. That's me guessing, though. No devs and given any clear indication on that.
They have the PvE EKs up, and personal EKs are online. They have PvP servers online, and should start testing dynamic PvP servers any day. The links between the two and victory conditions will be next in, and that's pretty much the game. Their dynamic campaign system really means they COULD be live and then patch in changes over time. They won't do that, but the fact that they could means a slip on the release date by very much would be pretty surprising.