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Ashes of Creation: Pros vs Cons

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,189
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is actually untrue as far as I can tell.  In the Massively interview which I believe you are referring to, Bree clarifies this in the comment section where she points out that Steven did NOT say they had $30M but just that is what the core game would cost.

    If you have a link to a statement showing the $30M is actually FUNDED and in the bank please share it.  As I said that would go a long way to quieting many concerns.


    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
    laserit said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is completely irrelevant because no one can proof that he actually has $30 million or that they have put $30 million into the company to produce the game.

    This is the same as trusting a Nigerian scammer saying they have $30 million in an account and need you to transfer it to a US account but you need to give them $50 to transfer you the $30 million.

    It's the oldest trick in the book. Until we see officially confirmed financial statements that they indeed have that money it's safe to assume all they have is the Kickstarter money.
    There is this little thing called fraud that you have to be aware of when soliciting funds. An anonymous Nigerian scammer has no such limitation.

    disclaimer: I'm not financial supporter of AoC nor do I intend to be.
    A Kickstarter also has no such limitation. You have to try to deliver. That is all you need to do. It is very hard, almost impossible to prove that you set out from the start to pay yourself a nice yearly salary from Kickstarter funds and never intended to complete the game. It takes a couple of months for an amateur to produce a great looking demo with Unity or UE4 store bought assets for a total cost of below $1000.

    The proof is in the hundreds of Kickstarter software projects that failed with no repercussions at all.
    “I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
    the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
  • Risc1911Risc1911 Member Posts: 78
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is completely irrelevant because no one can proof that he actually has $30 million or that they have put $30 million into the company to produce the game.

    This is the same as trusting a Nigerian scammer saying they have $30 million in an account and need you to transfer it to a US account but you need to give them $50 to transfer you the $30 million.

    It's the oldest trick in the book. Until we see officially confirmed financial statements that they indeed have that money it's safe to assume all they have is the Kickstarter money.

    It's the basis for Kickstarter, trust. You obviously don't. Cool bro. However, the counter to your argument is that we don't know what they have. We do know it will take more to make than what they asked for in KS, so if that makes you uneasy, then crowdfunding probably isn't for you.
    I am sorry but i don't understand how the counter to my argument is the same as my argument. I guess, we agree then?

    There is no proof for the $30 million Shariff supposedly put into this company so the logical conclusion is that they only have the Kickstarter money.
    “I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
    the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 453
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is actually untrue as far as I can tell.  In the Massively interview which I believe you are referring to, Bree clarifies this in the comment section where she points out that Steven did NOT say they had $30M but just that is what the core game would cost.

    If you have a link to a statement showing the $30M is actually FUNDED and in the bank please share it.  As I said that would go a long way to quieting many concerns.


    From the FAQ page on their kickstarter: "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." They reached their goal so that means they have the money for the core game. He said the core game is budgeted for $30 million. So I am assuming they have that much. If you are asking if I can provide his bank statement, then no. That is an unreasonable request. There has to be some form of faith when it comes to game development.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,189
    Ponzini said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is actually untrue as far as I can tell.  In the Massively interview which I believe you are referring to, Bree clarifies this in the comment section where she points out that Steven did NOT say they had $30M but just that is what the core game would cost.

    If you have a link to a statement showing the $30M is actually FUNDED and in the bank please share it.  As I said that would go a long way to quieting many concerns.


    From the FAQ page on their kickstarter: "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." They reached their goal so that means they have the money for the core game. He said the core game is budgeted for $30 million. So I am assuming they have that much. If you are asking if I can provide his bank statement, then no. That is an unreasonable request. There has to be some form of faith when it comes to game development.
    I highlighted the important part of your statement.  It's based on your assumption and not fact. Again, this is Bree's EXACT quote:

    Bree Royce

    To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far. :D


    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    You have an MLM guy insinuating that he can/will self-fund 30M and has 'friends' begging to invest.

    MLM 101 is to throw around wild numbers and make everything seem larger than life and that everyone and their mother is desperate to get on board in order to create a false sense of confidence.

    He did this in the massively article/reddit when he claims Xango is a multi-billion dollar global company yet it does not disclose financials.

    Its astonishing that people just recite his numbers as if they mean anything other than marketing hype.


  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 453
    Ponzini said:
    From the FAQ page on their kickstarter: "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." They reached their goal so that means they have the money for the core game. He said the core game is budgeted for $30 million. So I am assuming they have that much. If you are asking if I can provide his bank statement, then no. That is an unreasonable request. There has to be some form of faith when it comes to game development.
    I highlighted the important part of your statement.  It's based on your assumption and not fact. Again, this is Bree's EXACT quote:

    Bree Royce

    To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far. :D


    Well lets lay out all the quotes then:

    From the article:
    "The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete. The Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding we might engage in is intended to add to that budget, for additional scope on certain systems we intend to reveal throughout development."

    From FAQ:
    "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." 

    From Bree:
    "To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far."


    At no point does Steven say he had more investors in the wings unless she didn't post that response in the Q&A. Steven had said they want to stay true to their vision and don't want to be compromised which means no other investors. Right? He has said several times they already have enough funding for a core game so I assume that means he already has the 30 million if not close. Also the game has been in production for about a year with the dozen employees they have now. Not 2 years. 

    This seems like far more transparency than any other game I've seen to be honest. Most companies don't discuss finances this early in production. Not sure what else you are expecting.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,189
    Ponzini said:
    Ponzini said:
    From the FAQ page on their kickstarter: "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." They reached their goal so that means they have the money for the core game. He said the core game is budgeted for $30 million. So I am assuming they have that much. If you are asking if I can provide his bank statement, then no. That is an unreasonable request. There has to be some form of faith when it comes to game development.
    I highlighted the important part of your statement.  It's based on your assumption and not fact. Again, this is Bree's EXACT quote:

    Bree Royce

    To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far. :D


    Well lets lay out all the quotes then:

    From the article:
    "The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete. The Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding we might engage in is intended to add to that budget, for additional scope on certain systems we intend to reveal throughout development."

    From FAQ:
    "This project is primarily self funded, and we’re dedicated to staying true to our vision and not being compromised. The core product can be delivered with our current capital and the crowdfunding goal. Going forward, we are dedicated to keeping our vision consistent with our philosophies and adding features whenever possible." 

    From Bree:
    "To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far."


    At no point does Steven say he had more investors in the wings unless she didn't post that response in the Q&A. Steven had said they want to stay true to their vision and don't want to be compromised which means no other investors. Right? He has said several times they already have enough funding for a core game so I assume that means he already has the 30 million if not close. Also the game has been in production for about a year with the dozen employees they have now. Not 2 years. 

    This seems like far more transparency than any other game I've seen to be honest. Most companies don't discuss finances this early in production. Not sure what else you are expecting.
    So again we fall back onto the highlighted words.   You can assume anything you'd like... doesn't make it right or wrong.  Maybe he's got $30 in the company coffers.. I have no way of knowing.  From your statement I was hoping you did and could show me.  Assumptions usually don;t end well.


    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    Ponzini said:
    so I assume that means he already has the 30 million if not close..

    This seems like far more transparency...
    And to people who understand MLM tactics this seems like exactly the type of fake hype they use to recruit people and sell overpriced garbage.

    You are trusting a MLM guy to give you real numbers. Just think about that for a second.

    The reality is that people will see someone talking passionately about a product (MLM) and see a flashy video (MLM) and they become desperate to believe its real (MLM).
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Risc1911 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is completely irrelevant because no one can proof that he actually has $30 million or that they have put $30 million into the company to produce the game.

    This is the same as trusting a Nigerian scammer saying they have $30 million in an account and need you to transfer it to a US account but you need to give them $50 to transfer you the $30 million.

    It's the oldest trick in the book. Until we see officially confirmed financial statements that they indeed have that money it's safe to assume all they have is the Kickstarter money.

    It's the basis for Kickstarter, trust. You obviously don't. Cool bro. However, the counter to your argument is that we don't know what they have. We do know it will take more to make than what they asked for in KS, so if that makes you uneasy, then crowdfunding probably isn't for you.
    I am sorry but i don't understand how the counter to my argument is the same as my argument. I guess, we agree then?

    There is no proof for the $30 million Shariff supposedly put into this company so the logical conclusion is that they only have the Kickstarter money.

    Actually, that's not logical at all, since they've already completed some amount of work. Also you can see that there are 11 people working there, so how long and for how much? Also, what have expenses been to date? That would be logical. What you're talking about is a minimalist perspective where we can assume with some certainty that they will have at least the KS money to continue development of a project that is already X% completed. 

    In the end, you don't actually have enough information to make an assertion other than we "know they have X amount of money from KS". We can also state that they have completed some work on the game. Both are quite nebulous statements, though. 
    Torval

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 453
    edited May 2017
    So basically you guys wont believe them until you see bank statements. lol There is no convincing you. So like Steven posted on reddit:

    "I understand all the skepticism. A lot of promises have been made from other developers in the past.

    But my team and I are just trying to bring back hope to the genre.

    Sit tight, and you can join us when we launch!"

    or

    "We will deliver, and if you have doubts, we aren't forcing you to back us.

    We are doing this because we love the MMORPG genre."

    TorvalKyleranMaurgrim
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    He can claim anything he wants, we have no idea how long he has employed anybody.

    He could have have spent 11 months coming up with the feature list and based on what has been shown had 1 guy working on an UE4 assets video for a few weeks.

  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 453
    Jacobin said:
    He can claim anything he wants, we have no idea how long he has employed anybody.

    He could have have spent 11 months coming up with the feature list and based on what has been shown had 1 guy working on an UE4 assets video for a few weeks.

    So you need bank statements AND proof of employment AND you need to physically be playing the game yourself in their studios to believe. lol You have made up your mind. What is the point in discussing anything?
    Torval
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,189
    No.. If he says the company has $30M funded in the bank I will believe him.  I don't need bank statements.  But I have looked very hard and I cannot find such a statement.  It seems like great lengths are being gone to in order to allow for ambiguity.  

    I mean, if you want to get technical he stated two different things:

    In your quote form the FAQ above he says he can fund the core game with what he has PLUS THE KICKSTARTER.

    In the quote from Massively he says the Kickstarter funds are for additional scope..
    "The Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding we might engage in is intended to add to that budget, for additional scope on certain systems we intend to reveal throughout development."

    I don't think either matter much if he really has $30M in funding in the bank.  It's just me, but I would feel a lot better if he came out and said "We have the $30M funded already and in our coffers".   Not a pledge, not a maybe from a friend... but 100% funded and locked in.

    KyleranGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 453
    No.. If he says the company has $30M funded in the bank I will believe him.  I don't need bank statements.  But I have looked very hard and I cannot find such a statement.  It seems like great lengths are being gone to in order to allow for ambiguity.  

    I mean, if you want to get technical he stated two different things:

    In your quote form the FAQ above he says he can fund the core game with what he has PLUS THE KICKSTARTER.

    In the quote from Massively he says the Kickstarter funds are for additional scope..
    "The Kickstarter and any other crowdfunding we might engage in is intended to add to that budget, for additional scope on certain systems we intend to reveal throughout development."

    I don't think either matter much if he really has $30M in funding in the bank.  It's just me, but I would feel a lot better if he came out and said "We have the $30M funded already and in our coffers".   Not a pledge, not a maybe from a friend... but 100% funded and locked in.

    Well then go ahead and try and ask them during a Q&A or on Reddit. They do live Q&A 3 times a week and they are usually pretty open about things. If not I am sure they will discuss it again by the time Kickstarter ends.
  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 623


    I don't think either matter much if he really has $30M in funding in the bank.  It's just me, but I would feel a lot better if he came out and said "We have the $30M funded already and in our coffers".   Not a pledge, not a maybe from a friend... but 100% funded and locked in.


    It would be a good move actually, even if just to clearly show they are not breaking the "The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project." rule, which kinda requires that they have locked in 30mill (his number) minus the initial pledge. 

    Slapshot1188
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,960
    Risc1911 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is completely irrelevant because no one can proof that he actually has $30 million or that they have put $30 million into the company to produce the game.

    This is the same as trusting a Nigerian scammer saying they have $30 million in an account and need you to transfer it to a US account but you need to give them $50 to transfer you the $30 million.

    It's the oldest trick in the book. Until we see officially confirmed financial statements that they indeed have that money it's safe to assume all they have is the Kickstarter money.

    It's the basis for Kickstarter, trust. You obviously don't. Cool bro. However, the counter to your argument is that we don't know what they have. We do know it will take more to make than what they asked for in KS, so if that makes you uneasy, then crowdfunding probably isn't for you.
    I am sorry but i don't understand how the counter to my argument is the same as my argument. I guess, we agree then?

    There is no proof for the $30 million Shariff supposedly put into this company so the logical conclusion is that they only have the Kickstarter money.
    No, that's not a logical conclusion. It's a logical fallacy. A logical conclusion follows a proof of facts. You have none. Your assumption is just as wrong as assuming they have $30M in cash stashed in the bank.

    I hate when people push their psuedo-logic like it's the real thing, like they're analysts or logicians. It's deceptive, more so than the onus you're trying to lay on the project. The project is omitting facts. You're twisting them to suit your agenda and conclusion, like most of the other "intellectual critics" here.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,302
    Risc1911 said:
    laserit said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Ponzini said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Risc1911 said:
    Cons: There is no chance that an MMORPG with that scope get's developed for $700k (their initial goal) or $2mil (the current funding on Kickstarter). It's simply not possible. They say they have more money invested, no one can verify that so all we know are the Kickstarter numbers.

    They never said that. They said the budget is $30 million. That's a known number already. 
    They said to deliver the core game they need a $30M budget.  They have NOT said they have $30M in secured funding as far as I can tell.  That is why I keep asking.  If you know of a link that shows they have SECURED $30M in funding let me know.  that would certainly put my mind at easy and I'll likely keep my Kickstarter Pledge.

    He said he is funding the game and they already have the budget for a core viable game. The core viable game will cost $30 million. Meaning he is putting 30 million of his own money into the game. Kickstarter will ADD to that $30 million budget. He has talked about it several times that they already have the money for the game they have promised.
    That is completely irrelevant because no one can proof that he actually has $30 million or that they have put $30 million into the company to produce the game.

    This is the same as trusting a Nigerian scammer saying they have $30 million in an account and need you to transfer it to a US account but you need to give them $50 to transfer you the $30 million.

    It's the oldest trick in the book. Until we see officially confirmed financial statements that they indeed have that money it's safe to assume all they have is the Kickstarter money.
    There is this little thing called fraud that you have to be aware of when soliciting funds. An anonymous Nigerian scammer has no such limitation.

    disclaimer: I'm not financial supporter of AoC nor do I intend to be.
    A Kickstarter also has no such limitation. You have to try to deliver. That is all you need to do. It is very hard, almost impossible to prove that you set out from the start to pay yourself a nice yearly salary from Kickstarter funds and never intended to complete the game. It takes a couple of months for an amateur to produce a great looking demo with Unity or UE4 store bought assets for a total cost of below $1000.

    The proof is in the hundreds of Kickstarter software projects that failed with no repercussions at all.
    I couldn't discount the possibility of frauds being committed through Kickstarter. But equating that to Nigerian scams is just a little bit disingenuous.

    Don't you think? 
    Torval

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    I don't think anyone in their right mind would put $30M of their own money in making an mmorpg. On the other hand a lot of people would put an initial investment, use that investment to build something you can show other investors and get them to invest money in your company.

    By going to kickstarter he has showed his ambition while getting players attracted to his project, getting a lot of free press which certainly will make it easier to get others to invest money.

    Only thing I know for sure is that no matter how much hype a project like this gets its never going to be simple building a game like this one.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,960
    Shaigh said:
    I don't think anyone in their right mind would put $30M of their own money in making an mmorpg. On the other hand a lot of people would put an initial investment, use that investment to build something you can show other investors and get them to invest money in your company.

    By going to kickstarter he has showed his ambition while getting players attracted to his project, getting a lot of free press which certainly will make it easier to get others to invest money.

    Only thing I know for sure is that no matter how much hype a project like this gets its never going to be simple building a game like this one.
    My speculation is that a successful KS goals will trigger previously arranged funding. If the KS project has a good response then professional investors will back according to that. It may even scale based on incremental milestones. Note that there are stretchgoal milestones for both money and backers.

    He will put in x number of dollars of his own money along with the investor money for that pool.
    Kyleran
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    So KS is just round 1 for seed funding? A bullet point to show real investors?

    That is the exact opposite of KS's original vision. The whole point to help creators who can't get or want to be free from investor influence.
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,960
    Yes, KS and how it is used, along with other crowd funding options have changed over time from their original vision. Nothing on earth is static. Time moves on. News at 11.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    edited May 2017
    Jacobin said:
    So KS is just round 1 for seed funding? A bullet point to show real investors?

    That is the exact opposite of KS's original vision. The whole point to help creators who can't get or want to be free from investor influence.
    ...talking of 'original vision':

    http://kickstart.org/

    Slapshot1188
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