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4/27 stream Spawning

GraySealGraySeal Member UncommonPosts: 26
I liked that a NPC could be an alarmist.  It was mentioned that perception would affect the ability to identify an alarmist.  That is all good. 

However, it was evident that the spawn was static.  A member of the group knew ahead of time that a particular NPC would be an alarmist.  Having static spawn for this type of game, yet again, after the passage of time from when EQ first was made is going to stick this game in the category of "seen that, done that".

Why can not there be code for constantly moving NPCs?  Why should NPCs magically pop after a short passage of time?  Why does there have to be predictable pop up mobs?

The castle in the distant is awesome.  Whey wouldn't guards move out from the castle to fill voids left by defeated guards?  Why would these guards be the same in how they act?  Why should the game be static predictable?

The cooperative group play as seen in EQ would be great.  That is something to carry over.   Specialized skills and implementation of those skills should be intriguing fun.  Groups vary and skills needed can be in flux.

But static spawn?  ugh  Pantheon needs to be the modern version of EQ.  Improving the challenges and extending the possibilities of discovery should be a goal of the improved gameplay.   Acclimation is an possible new layer to address.   Acclimation is not a major build upon a good game design.  Getting rid of static spawn would be.

Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,390
    Sadly some gamer's like myself wanted to see gaming evolve,improve,better scripting/AI.
    However there are very few developers that can afford to do a game right,the rest just pretend with very little HQ effort although i do acknowledge that any game takes some decent effort.

    After seeing 3 iterations of the EQ franchise "Vanguard" included,i have got a very good picture of what these teams will be doing and not doing.
    I have not seen the kind of thinking that leaves me believing something magical will happen.Instead i expect to feel like i do in most games that ideas fell short or could/should have been done better or more time spent on them.

    Money is always the factor that ruins games,developers are 99% seeing the vision of money  while gamer's see the vision of gaming.

    I have got a real good feel for the gaming community,w/o sounding arrogant,i feel most are juts blind to what can be done in these games,therefor get excited over mediocrity.Any quality developer can make an amazing game that rises eyebrows,they simply will not afford the time and cost to do it and that is what i yet again expect from Pantheon.I like to believe otherwise but i realize time is money and money keeps families alive,so game development will always take a back seat because they are in it for profits and not to break even while making the greatest game ever.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The above is hardly applicable to Pantheon, a game made by extremely talented people who could make exponentially more working elsewhere.

    They've spent years scraping by, often working multiple jobs, in order to make a game they're passionate about.


  • ShaddyDaddyShaddyDaddy Member UncommonPosts: 187

    DMKano said:



    Dullahan said:


    The above is hardly applicable to Pantheon, a game made by extremely talented people who could make exponentially more working elsewhere.

    They've spent years scraping by, often working multiple jobs, in order to make a game they're passionate about.






    They could make exponentially more where? Would love to hear this - they are getting paid at VR in line what other companies would pay.

    The reason they are making Pantheon is to make money, nothing wrong with that, thats the point of any company.

    They are making Pantheon because they see a market for EQ1 type MMO, and they think they can make money off it. They know how to do it since they've done it before - the game is very similar to EQ1.




    While I will give you the money making aspect of it, can you recognize a need for giving themselves and the customer nostalgia and a game that they are wanting? I would like to think they are not being completely hedonistic about this game. Seems that way to me anyway.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    DMKano said:




    Dullahan said:



    The above is hardly applicable to Pantheon, a game made by extremely talented people who could make exponentially more working elsewhere.

    They've spent years scraping by, often working multiple jobs, in order to make a game they're passionate about.








    They could make exponentially more where? Would love to hear this - they are getting paid at VR in line what other companies would pay.

    The reason they are making Pantheon is to make money, nothing wrong with that, thats the point of any company.

    They are making Pantheon because they see a market for EQ1 type MMO, and they think they can make money off it. They know how to do it since they've done it before - the game is very similar to EQ1.

    Are they passionate about it - of course, I am yet to see an indie game team that is not passionate about their game.



    You must not be familiar with this history VR. It's hard to separate what I know from personal conversations and what is just public knowledge, but it's pretty well known that many of those currently working there started by volunteering. As such, basically any job would have been exponentially more than that. If you think most indie studios are paying industry standards, you are uninformed/misinformed. Any place this is happening is the exception, and not the norm.


  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    DMKano said:

    The employees of VR are in fact on a payroll now. There is no place that would pay them "exponentially" more unless you are misusing the word.


    If they could find work that would pay them double or more, then that would be exponentially more.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,248




    DMKano said:

    The employees of VR are in fact on a payroll now. There is no place that would pay them "exponentially" more unless you are misusing the word.




    If they could find work that would pay them double or more, then that would be exponentially more.



    Semantic arguement.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,248
    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026

    Mendel said:

    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.


    This.  If it is going to be a literal clone of something else then I give no shits....even if it is an "old school" game and I backed it.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    Mendel said:

    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.


    So called innovation is what got this genre into the mess it's in to begin with.


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,248

    Dullahan said:



    Mendel said:


    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.




    So called innovation is what got this genre into the mess it's in to begin with.

    That's a pretty big claim.  How did innovation ruin the genre?  Can you give examples, because I think I could give examples of all manner of games doing the same thing as previous games all the way back to D&D.

    More importantly, to the points @GraySeal and @Wizardry made, why is the community so accepting of just anything a developer chooses to deliver?  Where are our standards and why do these standards appear to be so low?  If a steak house tried to sell a person the exact same steak they ate yesterday, that person wouldn't praise that steak house, and certainly wouldn't give that restaurateur money.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • BluelinerBlueliner Member UncommonPosts: 158

    Mendel said:

    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.


    Or maybe they are making a game that those in this niche want as it's been said a hundred times, we want EQ with updated graphics. If that is not what you want then don't play it. It's a rather simple concept.
  • BluelinerBlueliner Member UncommonPosts: 158

    Mendel said:



    Dullahan said:





    Mendel said:



    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.






    So called innovation is what got this genre into the mess it's in to begin with.


    That's a pretty big claim.  How did innovation ruin the genre?  Can you give examples, because I think I could give examples of all manner of games doing the same thing as previous games all the way back to D&D.

    More importantly, to the points @GraySeal and @Wizardry made, why is the community so accepting of just anything a developer chooses to deliver?  Where are our standards and why do these standards appear to be so low?  If a steak house tried to sell a person the exact same steak they ate yesterday, that person wouldn't praise that steak house, and certainly wouldn't give that restaurateur money.


    If I went to the same steak house the very next day and ordered another steak, it's because I LIKED THE STEAK! if I wanted a different steak I'd go to a different steakhouse.

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538

    Blueliner said:


    Or maybe they are making a game that those in this niche want as it's been said a hundred times, we want EQ with updated graphics. If that is not what you want then don't play it. It's a rather simple concept.


    Part of the problem is that half of the biggest pro-Pantheon supporters in this forum want Pantheon to be more than just EQ with updated graphics....
  • BluelinerBlueliner Member UncommonPosts: 158

    Tiamat64 said:



    Blueliner said:



    Or maybe they are making a game that those in this niche want as it's been said a hundred times, we want EQ with updated graphics. If that is not what you want then don't play it. It's a rather simple concept.




    Part of the problem is that half of the biggest pro-Pantheon supporters in this forum want Pantheon to be more than just EQ with updated graphics....


    Then they aren't true supporters, they are just more disenfranchised mmo players desperate for a game to love again, this game will not be the answer for them. If you want fancy new dodads and mechanics maybe jump on the star citizen train and pray it doesn't vaporware on you.
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,163
    Innovation is the key.

    The reason why mmos have become stale is because it is the same thing we they have played before over and over.

    We felt magic back in the old days because the games we played had a sense of not knowing what to expect. That gave us a sense of wonder and that is what makes you think about games when you are at work or school and makes you ready to hurry and get home to dive back in. 



    This is nothing against Pantheon because I understand wanting an updated version of a game you loved. 

    I would love to get an updated version of Lineage 2 that played exactly the same way it did 10 years ago.  ;)





  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    Tiamat64 said:



    Blueliner said:



    Or maybe they are making a game that those in this niche want as it's been said a hundred times, we want EQ with updated graphics. If that is not what you want then don't play it. It's a rather simple concept.




    Part of the problem is that half of the biggest pro-Pantheon supporters in this forum want Pantheon to be more than just EQ with updated graphics....


    "Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."

    https://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/

    Feature List:
    https://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827

    Mendel said:

    So far, Pantheon has shown very little that is actually innovative.  It is prettier, but I cannot honestly count that as innovative -- they're merely using the full compliment of pixels available with modern graphics cards.

    The points raised by @GraySeal and @Wizardry are valid.  Why are we as a community so accepting of derivative, uninspired work, when we should be demanding innovation and challenge?  We're to the point where we're seeing and claiming everything as magical when it's just prettier.

    You may now attempt to derail this topic with your insipid gifs and memes.


    I'll have to disagree with you on "modern graphics".

    It got me real hard when they showed on stream the reflection on character models from nearby light sources.

    Dude.... Engines do that with vanilla script if the material has that property. That's not an graphic achievement.

    Also, look at that global light settings, I can't look at the stream too much because is something that I know they can solve be tweaking settings. 

    I know it is an alpha. There is where my hope lives. Because if they lunch the game following the UI design choices and overall aesthetics I won't be able to play it.

    The character design is so awesome! I think that's what bothers me since the contrast on quality makes it shine out more.

    But, as people said above: I was expecting a project following the same concept from indie games like Shovel Knight, Undertale, Enter the Gungeon: You get the good things from the old school game you love and improve the problems it had.

    Maybe the problem is me. Maybe I was expecting something else. But if so, if they will copy+paste some already existing formula shouldn't it save a lot of production time since you already know what to do and it is just the job to actually do it? No new concept or fresh new systems?
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  • GraySealGraySeal Member UncommonPosts: 26
    I played EQ when it was first out (about 3 weeks after it released).   Besides the challenges of playing on a modem with slow and disconnects the game's challenge was compelling.

    I knew then there were limitations because of hardware.  Hardware can only do so much.  I could think of how the game could be better.

    Now, hardware is absolutely booking compared to then.   My connection to the internet is a breeze.  It is fast and no disconnects.  I look forward to the challenges of the games and not the internet interface.

    I look for the improvements I could envision back then.  EQ was good because of its difficult travel.  EQ was good because of the need for good group mates.  EQ was good because of the selfless acts of friendships  when things went horribly wrong.  EQ was good because of the help and cooperation to accomplish epic quests even if your char was not in your guild.

    Graphics can be better.  Lots of games have figured out how to do that.

    What I hope for from Pantheon is keeping the good stuff.  I do not want it easy nor convenient. 

    I do not want leveling as the goal.   Pantheon appears to be changing that.  Good.

    My disappointment was not in the group dynamics, the graphics, or character animations.   I was disappointed to see mob placement and actions pretty much dated to hardware capabilities before the turn of the century.  I would think innovation would be computer code to make mobs more random, more intelligent in actions, and unpredictable.  There should be more variation in mobs.   Mobs should move around as if they lived in the world.

    It takes coding.   We have the hardware to do it.  Let us use the hardware advances to make a great game seen in EQ into the Pantheon which can challenge us for years.

    I have played EQ in the past six months.   Still like it.  I can see how it could be better and have not seen anyone make the improvements.

    Pantheon will be worth playing.  I will give it a go.  

    I was disappointed to see the old fashion static spawn.   Other aspects will be better which will be worth the time to explore Pantheon.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited May 2017
    DMKano said:
    The so called innovation is what got 989 Studios to make EQ1 back in 1999

    I find it ironic to blame innovation - which is what has given us computers and MMORPGs to begin with.


    I'm referring specifically to the innovative game mechanics like quest progression, instancing, graveyards, telegraphs and a slew of other things which have all, in their time, been dubbed innovative.

    Innovation has far too often been a synonym for convenience and decisions that were a detriment to the MMORPG genre.

    If VR delivers on what they're promising, Pantheon will not be short on innovation.


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538
    edited May 2017



    Blueliner said:







    Tiamat64 said:




    Part of the problem is that half of the biggest pro-Pantheon supporters in this forum want Pantheon to be more than just EQ with updated graphics....








    Then they aren't true supporters, they are just more disenfranchised mmo players desperate for a game to love again, this game will not be the answer for them. If you want fancy new dodads and mechanics maybe jump on the star citizen train and pray it doesn't vaporware on you.







    The point I was trying to make is that what Pantheon is, does not appear to be as black and white as you seem to think it is.  As pointed out by several people who posted after you did.  If anything, I highly suspect you're the one that's getting it wrong on what Pantheon's intended to be, but even if you're right (and you very well may be), the amount of people who think otherwise on what Pantheon actually is are enough that it goes to show Pantheon's not going to be able to even please even just everyone in the small niche who supports it right now.

    As it is, the fact that your view differs greatly from what other Pantheon's supporters seem to think Pantheon is shows that either they or you are worshipping the game for being something it isn't actually going to be, because only one of you can be right on a matter like that...
  • TyserieTyserie Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited May 2017
    And I almost thought, acclimation system will bring first game where we will use the fur coats and so on to survive in wilderness. Not happen :(

    I think they should go for monk's weapons like in this link https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_Weapons_(5e_Other)  All other classes will have shiny items and monks just dirty hands? :):)


    Post edited by Tyserie on
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,549
    I don't really care if this is indeed Evrquest 2.0 I would play a game like that for sure. Here's hoping I can make the same wonderful friends I made the last time I played Everquest.
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