Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

123457»

Comments

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    CrazKanuk said:

    All that said, if you're not recognizing how weak your arguments are, there's nothing that I can do to help you there. Quite simply, you're speaking about an industry that you have no clue about (obviously) and you're getting schooled. So just pack it in and move along and stop trying to make your argument relevant by simply moving goalposts all over the field, and still losing. 


    Yeah I'm the deluded one here. My concerns have been specific and consistent from the beginning nor have I restored to personally insulting other posters.

    You are the one who reads something he doesn't like then goes to google and writes a 1000 word blog entry about why that person is 'losing'. All you are ultimately saying is that you don't like the criticisms because there is a fraction of a chance this can succeed since no one has a crystal ball. You are not 'schooling' anybody my friend.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    All that said, if you're not recognizing how weak your arguments are, there's nothing that I can do to help you there. Quite simply, you're speaking about an industry that you have no clue about (obviously) and you're getting schooled. So just pack it in and move along and stop trying to make your argument relevant by simply moving goalposts all over the field, and still losing. 




    Yeah I'm the deluded one here. My concerns have been specific and consistent from the beginning nor have I restored to personally insulting other posters.

    You are the one who reads something he doesn't like then goes to google and writes a 1000 word blog entry about why that person is 'losing'. All you are ultimately saying is that you don't like the criticisms because there is a fraction of a chance this can succeed since no one has a crystal ball. You are not 'schooling' anybody my friend.



    Uh you were calling people crazed zealots....lol

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    All that said, if you're not recognizing how weak your arguments are, there's nothing that I can do to help you there. Quite simply, you're speaking about an industry that you have no clue about (obviously) and you're getting schooled. So just pack it in and move along and stop trying to make your argument relevant by simply moving goalposts all over the field, and still losing. 




    Yeah I'm the deluded one here. My concerns have been specific and consistent from the beginning nor have I restored to personally insulting other posters.

    You are the one who reads something he doesn't like then goes to google and writes a 1000 word blog entry about why that person is 'losing'. All you are ultimately saying is that you don't like the criticisms because there is a fraction of a chance this can succeed since no one has a crystal ball. You are not 'schooling' anybody my friend.




    Yes, correct, you're the one that's deluded. Also because I asked you for a specific list of concerns, which you addressed. I then answered those SPECIFIC concerns with REAL and quantifiable data, which you seemed not to like. So, instead, you created some obscure new goalposts which you weren't able to quantify either, which is why you're mad. 

    If you don't think you're getting schooled, maybe you should take a look back at where I answered your concerns with REAL data and FACTUAL evidence which came from ACTUAL research. Yes, I did use Google. Not because I'm losing, but because I want to be ACCURATE and not look like an idiot. You, on the other hand, have obviously NOT used google, don't understand the game industry (or possibly any other business for that matter) and are content with obscure, unsupported opinions. 

    Just for the record, I never said anything about this succeeding and ACTUALLY told people NOT to back it. I suppose this just goes to support my assumption that you're just spouting opinion and you don't care about actual fact-based arguments. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,027

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    All that said, if you're not recognizing how weak your arguments are, there's nothing that I can do to help you there. Quite simply, you're speaking about an industry that you have no clue about (obviously) and you're getting schooled. So just pack it in and move along and stop trying to make your argument relevant by simply moving goalposts all over the field, and still losing. 




    Yeah I'm the deluded one here. My concerns have been specific and consistent from the beginning nor have I restored to personally insulting other posters.

    You are the one who reads something he doesn't like then goes to google and writes a 1000 word blog entry about why that person is 'losing'. All you are ultimately saying is that you don't like the criticisms because there is a fraction of a chance this can succeed since no one has a crystal ball. You are not 'schooling' anybody my friend.



    You've been specifically and consistently general, tossing around terms like "known scammer" and "shady past".  I'm not the only one that has asked 'what exactly are your concerns about this project's distant relationship with Xango', and the most direct answer you've given is 'MLM!', which isn't a crime but part of a multi-billion dollar industry:

    http://www.dsa.org/benefits/research/factsheets

    In short, as @Distopia mentioned, you are projecting your own moral compass over this project for tenuous reasons at best.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    I have been a member of this site since 2004 and have probably played just as many MMOs as Mr. Sharif. I am doing just fine business wise. These sad attempts to try and discredit me personally are going nowhere. If I am so ignorant and clueless why do you keep responding with 1000 word well 'researched' blogs and constantly need to prove I am 'losing' and getting 'schooled' when you don't even have a stake in this project?

    Additionally, the red herrings you bring in are so ridiculous that its rarely worth going through point by point. Chivalry for example was a small scale project with a highly refined scope. It never claimed it would 'rebirth' a multi billion dollar genre even though it kind of ended up doing so.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Torval said:


    I think some people would rather have games shut down than not have them on their terms. LotRO is still a good game and its still running. People can't say the same thing about CoH or even SWG.

    I'm not saying people aren't affected. Every content update, every monetization change, every time anything changes in the least, the game is different and it affects everyone playing them. I understand and acknowledge that.

    My point being that just because we're affected by something, or an industry trend, doesn't give anyone the special right to undertake vendettas or ramp up the hyperbole. I'm not even saying opinions shouldn't be voiced. I am saying, again, that after a point if a project doesn't measure up to personal standards it's time to move on.


    I can agree with most of that. To me the biggest problem with most "it impacts us all" statements is they're almost always ambiguous and circumstantial. Some boogeyman waiting around the corner kind of ambiguous. I can understand specific arguments one way or the other, yet ambiguity never helped anyone in a debate

     It's also problematic that these comments are leveled at every single project at one point or another. It's like the ultimate strawman used to be negative. AS if it explains all other positions away. They certainly can't all be bad can they? Yet if you read forums that's the exact picture that is attempted to be drawn.


     It's funny slap mentioned F2P because that's another area such a practice has been routinely applied. 



    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    Questions are good.  Always be skeptical.  My pledge is likely higher than most of the folks arguing here.  That doesn't stop me from being skeptical.  Folks are so thin skinned today that they take personal offense when someone criticizes a game.  Seriously... I've been called a few not so nice words just today, including douche... over a game.  Keep the focus on the game and the dev team.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    I have been a member of this site since 2004 and have probably played just as many MMOs as Mr. Sharif. I am doing just fine business wise. These sad attempts to try and discredit me personally are going nowhere. If I am so ignorant and clueless why do you keep responding with 1000 word well 'researched' blogs and constantly need to prove I am 'losing' and getting 'schooled' when you don't even have a stake in this project?

    Additionally, the red herrings you bring in are so ridiculous that its rarely worth going through point by point. Chivalry for example was a small scale project with a highly refined scope. It never claimed it would 'rebirth' a multi billion dollar genre even though it kind of ended up doing so.



    Congrats on your success and MMO playing. I don't think I'm discrediting you any more than you're discrediting yourself. I guess I'm just interested in educated ignorant people. Unfortunately, that seems like a fruitless venture at this point because your posts are becoming more about me and less about the game itself, leading me to believe you're done talking about it. That's cool. Thanks for your posts. 

    Lol, it's not a red herring. It's simply an example that someone who is inexperienced can create something great. Also, he did claim that they were going to create "the best melee combat game...ever". 

    Also, I don't know why you feel that Chivalry had a "refined scope". What does that mean? I would argue that Intrepid has, actually, been PRETTY precise about what they plan to offer. Also, Steven just stated that the feature set discussed to date will all be part of the MVP, which is probably stupid, but that's my opinion. Also, they did show the monster token gameplay yesterday during their livestream. So it seems like there are actually many systems in place already, including combat, inventory management, and some level of environmental destruction. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183


    Questions are good.  Always be skeptical.  My pledge is likely higher than most of the folks arguing here.  That doesn't stop me from being skeptical.  Folks are so thin skinned today that they take personal offense when someone criticizes a game.  Seriously... I've been called a few not so nice words just today, including douche... over a game.  Keep the focus on the game and the dev team.


    It makes little sense to back every single KS project that comes along, (which you almost always claim to be a high level backer) and then in turn throw around statements like these projects are hurting the industry (which you did yesterday). And before the inevitable "don't insult me" or get personal" comes.. I'm not, I'm challenging your statements and the context they fall under.  They are extremely confusing... Almost unbelievable that you'd be a backer yet state the things you do. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    Torval said:
    I only said you were douche because well, you were being douchey to a new member and calling them out against the forum rules. That's a douchey thing to do so I said so. I don't think you're a perma douche, but we all go there sometimes. Today was your day. :chuffed:


    So he was calling someone out for breaking forum rules and you decide to break forum rules by making a personal attack?  Who's the douche again?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183




    Torval said:
    I only said you were douche because well, you were being douchey to a new member and calling them out against the forum rules. That's a douchey thing to do so I said so. I don't think you're a perma douche, but we all go there sometimes. Today was your day. :chuffed:




    So he was calling someone out for breaking forum rules and you decide to break forum rules by making a personal attack?  Who's the douche again?


    We're all douches from time to time.... sometimes we should be reminded not to act that way.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130


    Questions are good.  Always be skeptical.  My pledge is likely higher than most of the folks arguing here.  That doesn't stop me from being skeptical.  Folks are so thin skinned today that they take personal offense when someone criticizes a game.  Seriously... I've been called a few not so nice words just today, including douche... over a game.  Keep the focus on the game and the dev team.



    Ok, I've tried ignoring it, but it's locked in my brain now, so I'm going to say it and I want you to understand what's in my brain, so I want you to think of a studio audience saying this like they're answering a question of a host. "How high was it?" 

    There! Get out of my head! Seriously though, what did you back at and why? What's your "currency" what did you find value in? 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,448

    Jacobin said:

    I have been a member of this site since 2004 and have probably played just as many MMOs as Mr. Sharif. I am doing just fine business wise. These sad attempts to try and discredit me personally are going nowhere. If I am so ignorant and clueless why do you keep responding with 1000 word well 'researched' blogs and constantly need to prove I am 'losing' and getting 'schooled' when you don't even have a stake in this project?

    Additionally, the red herrings you bring in are so ridiculous that its rarely worth going through point by point. Chivalry for example was a small scale project with a highly refined scope. It never claimed it would 'rebirth' a multi billion dollar genre even though it kind of ended up doing so.

    I joined this forum in June of 2004. Not sure why that is relevant to this discussion, but there it is.

    I would bet that I have played far more MMO's than Mr. Shariff, but there is really no way to prove/disprove that unless he and I sat down and showed our lists. Again, not sure how that matters at all.

    And finally you are really the only person in this discussion using broad terms, and failing to acknowledge facts. The only person that could legitimately be considered to be using strawman or as you like to say red herring arguments is in fact you.

    Multiple people here have refuted or spoken to everything you have had to say. Usually backed up with facts and references and you have yet to present either. People do research and present evidence as that is the accepted way of validating points for a discussion. We discovered long ago, that nuh-uh and because I said so, do not work in the real world.

    Your opinions matter to you, just like everyone else's opinions matter to them. The difference as pointed out time and again in this discussion is; the people arguing against you keep presenting facts, all you present is insults, veiled insults, and opinions of what is going to happen. Which may turn into facts here in a few years, but if so it won't be because you based it on educated opinion.

    This team (Ashes) has just as much chance of seeing their goals through as any other small studio out there right now. You can not prove otherwise. You can be skeptical and should be, but you can't at this point prove this is not an accurate statement.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

    In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017


    CrazKanuk said:


    Also, I don't know why you feel that Chivalry had a "refined scope". What does that mean? I would argue that Intrepid has, actually, been PRETTY precise about what they plan to offer. Also, Steven just stated that the feature set discussed to date will all be part of the MVP, which is probably stupid, but that's my opinion. Also, they did show the monster token gameplay yesterday during their livestream. So it seems like there are actually many systems in place already, including combat, inventory management, and some level of environmental destruction. 




    Chivalry is a lobby based pvp only combat game not a full blown MMORPG. Its an utterly ridiculous example to even mention in relation to this project hence why its a red herring.

    You are the one who made this personal and not about the game by referring to me as an idiot, clueless, and making an entire country look bad in a desperate attempt to 'win' a forum thread once you realized doing blog essays about peripherally related general topics wasn't going anywhere.

    I said long ago in this thread that my arguments are my opinion and have never claimed otherwise. If people read them, get super triggered and claim that unless I can reference a specific court case I shouldn't discuss a game on a forum that's not my problem.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:




    CrazKanuk said:



    Also, I don't know why you feel that Chivalry had a "refined scope". What does that mean? I would argue that Intrepid has, actually, been PRETTY precise about what they plan to offer. Also, Steven just stated that the feature set discussed to date will all be part of the MVP, which is probably stupid, but that's my opinion. Also, they did show the monster token gameplay yesterday during their livestream. So it seems like there are actually many systems in place already, including combat, inventory management, and some level of environmental destruction. 






    Chivalry is a lobby based pvp only combat game not a full blown MMORPG. Its an utterly ridiculous example to even mention in relation to this project hence why its a red herring.

    You are the one who made this personal and not about the game by referring to me as an idiot, clueless, and making an entire country look bad in a desperate attempt to 'win' a forum thread once you realized doing blog essays about peripherally related general topics wasn't going anywhere.

    I said long ago in this thread that my arguments are my opinion and have never claimed otherwise. If people read them, get super triggered and claim that unless I can reference a specific court case I shouldn't discuss a game on a forum that's not my problem.



    Ok, so the intent was to illustrate that there are people with little or no experience who are making and delivering games. Chivalry is one of those titles. Are you devaluing the skill required to make this type of game? I will agree that MMORPGs are more complex and take longer to make, but they don't, necessarily, require any more or less experience to make. I actually deployed an MMORPG using some Unity tools in an afternoon on my own network at home. I haven't participated in the game industry in nearly 20 years, aside from some generally tinkering like that. No it amounted to a world and me running around in it and beating up a single non-moving enemy, but I did it. 

    Hey, I can't help that you're making Canadians look like idiots. Try to make a valid argument. 

    There's a huge difference between an opinion piece and factual evidence. You could have said, "Huh! I never knew that most people in the game industry had less than 6 years experience! That's crazy!" You didn't do that, though, you simply moved the goalposts. That's fine, though. I'm just trying to inform those wayward souls with actual facts. Fuck! Look where falsehoods and lies got America. Well, look if you can, sorry Mexico, no more looking for you. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Hatefull said:

    Your opinions matter to you, just like everyone else's opinions matter to them. The difference as pointed out time and again in this discussion is; the people arguing against you keep presenting facts, all you present is insults, veiled insults, and opinions of what is going to happen. Which may turn into facts here in a few years, but if so it won't be because you based it on educated opinion.

    This team (Ashes) has just as much chance of seeing their goals through as any other small studio out there right now. You can not prove otherwise. You can be skeptical and should be, but you can't at this point prove this is not an accurate statement.


    You and the other guy's counter 'facts' are claiming I am an idiot and know nothing about the genre/business based on barely related articles you link from google. Again, if I am so clueless why do you keep coming back?

    Anyways I will restate the issues for the 10th time just so the concerns about this project remain clear.

    - Top exec has no IT management experience and has never shipped a game
    - KS has had problems with scams/failed projects, Top exec's MLM history is relevant if you believe MLMs have ethically and morally questionable sales tactics
    - Team has 1 or 2 programmers and a few designers from failed studio SOE and refer to EQN and Landmark as their main MMO experience which were giant failures and caused the studio to bleed money like crazy
    - Most AOC footage is stock UE4 assets presented cinematically and does not show any of the core design features

    My opinion is that this studio does not have just as much a chance any any other because the key executive has no IT management experience and his team is very small and comes from a failed studio and failed projects. I believe his MLM background makes him good at marketing bad products which is exactly what this KS is.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Torval said:
    You introduced Chivalry into the argument. That's how debate rules work. Don't introduce something as an argument you think is bogus. You can't introduce and use an argument for one point and then dismiss it when used as a counterpoint.


    Ummm no it was our crazy canuck friend.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Torval said:




    Jacobin said:







    Torval said:
    You introduced Chivalry into the argument. That's how debate rules work. Don't introduce something as an argument you think is bogus. You can't introduce and use an argument for one point and then dismiss it when used as a counterpoint.








    Ummm no it was our crazy canuck friend.






    Ah yeah, I see that now. I seem to have entered that abominable state people get when they're not right.



    Just to be clear, we're talking about the abominable state that he's in, right? 

    I'll admit I've got a problem, but it's not with being inaccurate or incorrect. It's more like this, but with inaccurate forum posts. 



    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

Sign In or Register to comment.