Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

1234579

Comments

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Jacobin said:





    CrazKanuk said:




    I don't think you've made it clear what your concerns are? If you list your specific concerns I'd be more than happy to address them. Don't get into all the gory details, just bullet point them. Give a quick summary. 








    They have been voiced multiple times over and over. It boils down to lack of industry experience, a shady past and a stock assets video not being enough to believe they will deliver on their stated goals which include the 'Rebirth' of a billion dollar industry in under 2 years.

    You disagree, but at the same time are not backing the project so I have no idea what your stake is in all of this. You seem to just like googling stuff and writing long blog posts.





    Distopia said:








    What makes you think anyone owes you a debate? Secondly why would anyone want a debate with someone who flies off the handle before they're even addressed by anyone?








    Apparently people do care because like you, they keep replying in this thread. As a rational consumer, I do not like being misled and/or scammed so yes I will be very suspicious when a MLM guru decides to run a KS on his very first project in a new industry. If he was willing to take 100% of the risk on his own idea I wouldn't care.

    The precedent this sets is anyone (even a scammer) who is a 'fan' with some money can make a feature list and stock assets video and get public backing. Actual good developers who have in fact shipped good games and really need the help will get lost amidst these fans and frauds who think they are going to rebirth an industry.


    You've clearly shown your bias.  I think you are getting responses for a couple reasons:

    a) You write relatively well

    b) Reddit seems to mostly agree with you

    Unfortunately, by and large (and by design) Reddit seems categorically blind to the bandwagon fallacy.  I will say this: you are either going to look very wise or very foolish in a couple years.

    If you want to conjure up a good controversy, you're going to have to do better than "ties to MLM!".  This just makes you look... desperate.

    Criminals have shady pasts; it's not a crime to do well in MLM or the real estate industry.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Jacobin said:



    Distopia said:






    What makes you think anyone owes you a debate? Secondly why would anyone want a debate with someone who flies off the handle before they're even addressed by anyone?






    Apparently people do care because like you, they keep replying in this thread. As a rational consumer, I do not like being misled and/or scammed so yes I will be very suspicious when a MLM guru decides to run a KS on his very first project in a new industry. If he was willing to take 100% of the risk on his own idea I wouldn't care.

    The precedent this sets is anyone (even a scammer) who is a 'fan' with some money can make a feature list and stock assets video and get public backing. Actual good developers who have in fact shipped good games and really need the help will get lost amidst these fans and frauds who think they are developers.


    In that case the rational thing to do is hold on to your money.

    As for replying... it's the active topic of the day.... My point wasn't about caring though, it was about your demeanor. When you're calling people zealots and jumping at them for not having the same outlook, why would anyone expect a rational down to earth debate, rather than a pointless unneeded argument? 

    It's also important to realize it's not the backers who need to answer your questions, it's the team. If you need more info it's up to them to provide it, not users on this forum. 






    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421

    Distopia said:




    LIOKI said:















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.






    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 







    True, what do I care if people throw good money away. Make it rain bitches!!!!
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822

    Distopia said:




    LIOKI said:















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.






    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 








    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    The MLM connection is only one element of the criticism but highly relevant because it is based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to their friends and family, which is a very similar type of activity KS has helped facilitate in recent years.

    Someone with this past soliciting public donations on his very first project in a new industry is highly suspicious.

    Most people would want to build some credibility and prove they are capable of shipping a game before asking for public handouts to support a new project. Skipping that part + being a MLM guru leads me to believe we are dealing with someone who has a massively inflated ego and is delusional about what he thinks can achieve based on what he has shown so far.


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited May 2017





    Jacobin said:





    CrazKanuk said:






    I don't think you've made it clear what your concerns are? If you list your specific concerns I'd be more than happy to address them. Don't get into all the gory details, just bullet point them. Give a quick summary.







    They have been voiced multiple times over and over. It boils down to lack of industry experience, a shady past and a stock assets video not being enough to believe they will deliver on their stated goals which include the 'Rebirth' of a billion dollar industry in under 2 years. 

    You disagree, but at the same time are not backing the project so I have no idea what your stake is in all of this. You seem to just like googling stuff and writing long blog posts.



    -------------- My post starts below. Things are broken for reasons ------------



    Ok, I'll address each of the issues individually. 

    1) Experience - First off, what's your benchmark? What's your expectation? You are setting no metric by which you're measuring. It's also been expressed multiple times that many of the people on this project have AMPLE experience (meaning years) in the gaming industry. ACTUALLY, if you check out sites like payscale, you'll find that their team actually has more experience than the majority of the industry. Same goes for programmers. The reality is that the wick of video game developers burns quickly and they usually move onto industries which pay better and require less work (which is exactly what I did). Does this satisfy your question on experience? 

    2) Shady past - I don't think this influences whether or not a game gets done. Also, you haven't provided any examples of how he's been charged with anything. So he's effectively no shadier than an Avon lady. If I'm wrong here, let me know. You're basically vilifying someone in the court of public opinion based on your own moral compass. Is that correct? Are we ok to remove this from an objective argument as something that YOU have a problem with? It's really not pertinent to getting a game made. 

    3) Stock assets are being used more regularly by many games which are operating on a shoestring budget. This is common practice and if you don't believe me, just listen to Brad McQuaid talk about it in this article. Search for "asset" in the doc to get to the question. If you'd rather not read, I clipped a quote below:
    "Rather, it works as a focal point for third party tools and/or assets, which allows talented artists to create and sell assets through Unity’s Marketplace which developers can purchase and use for prototyping or in the final product. You can see this in many projects currently in development as it’s common practice."


    Does that answer your questions? 

    I disagree because you're ruining Canadians by making outrageous, self-righteous claims that aren't fact-based. So I'm hoping that this satisfies you and you'll stop making Canadians look like idiots. 

    Oh! I also find it interesting that you're shaking your finger at me for posting because "at the same time are not backing the project so I have no idea what your stake is in all of this.", yet I'm assuming you've put ZERO money down at this point. 

    For the record, I actually am considering it. I have a whole 30 days to make that decision. I'm actually waiting for all this "exciting stuff" they talked about in their Q&A. 

    So what's your interest here exactly? If you have no plans on backing it, that is. 


    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174

    Nyctelios said:



    Distopia said:






    LIOKI said:


















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.








    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 










    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.

    Ah, the motivation and rationalization of the domineering fascists of the world.

    You people need to publish a list of rules for the rest to follow. :lol:
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited May 2017



    Nyctelios said:


















    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.






    You're talking about a genre that is more or less abandoned at present as far as new AAA titles go, how worse can it truly get? Showing there is still money to be made isn't a bad thing, nor is it bad to show that people would like to see designs with more depth than what is currently available. 

    People like to talk about this ominous consequence for the MMO industry, yet they never state what negative possibility they're actually talking about. So how does this negatively impact a genre that has little new coming into it outside of said avenue? IF publishers were actually supporting said designs there would be no need for crowdfunding to begin with. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822

    Distopia said:



    Nyctelios said:














    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.




    You're talking about a genre that is more or less abandoned at present as far as new AAA titles go, how worse can it truly get? Showing there is still money to be made isn't a bad thing, nor is it bad to show that people would like to see designs with more depth than what is currently available. 

    People like to talk about this ominous consequence for the MMO industry, yet they never state what they're negative possibility they're actually talking about. So how does this negatively impact a genre that has little new coming into it outside of said avenue? IF publishers were actually supporting said designs there would be no need for crowdfunding to be begin with. 






    Dude, all KS projects becomes a flashy PR for what the platform can achieve (or fail).

    Look what happened after Might Number 9 and the mainstream media (major outlets) asking if KS was destined to fail. You can't act as if does not affect people.

    Torval said:




    Nyctelios said:





    Distopia said:








    LIOKI said:





















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.










    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 












    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.


    Ah, the motivation and rationalization of the domineering fascists of the world.

    You people need to publish a list of rules for the rest to follow. :lol:


    What?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Nyctelios said:


    Dude, all KS projects becomes a flashy PR for what the platform can achieve (or fail).

    Look what happened after Might Number 9 and the mainstream media (major outlets) asking if KS was destined to fail. You can't act as if does not affect people.




    That is business, no one has a crystal ball allowing them to support only successful projects. You can't expect cracks to not show up in any platform. So what exactly do you expect to happen in that regard realistically, not in a "if I ruled the world fantasy"?...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • 03cobradude03cobradude Member UncommonPosts: 47
    edited May 2017
    I don't see the problem here, because I've worked in the industry. In my experience a lot of devs are stuck in there ways and tend to be full of themselves. I can give countless examples of how I would tell these lvl designers what they needed to change, and there response being "That's how I designed it, and that's how it's staying" only to have the player base complain. It than gets changed into what I told them months before to do. 

    This is why I welcome a fresh set of eyes with some serious passion for gaming to create something new and exciting. Knowing that a lot of these devs are just "xbox bros" or don't really even game seriously. I'm sure they are exceptions to the rule and it could have just been where I was at, but that is my experience with the industry. That's why I went back to school because if you want something done right, you just got to do it yourself.

     I backed the game and I wish them the best of luck in fulfilling there promises to us backers. Hopefully, we get something new and exciting to change up the stagnation of the MMO market (Crowfall is doing pretty well right now, glad I backed it).

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Nyctelios said:






    Ah, the motivation and rationalization of the domineering fascists of the world.

    You people need to publish a list of rules for the rest to follow. :lol:




    What?


    I think he was referring to the invisible line I somehow crossed. :proud:

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822

    Distopia said:



    Nyctelios said:



    Dude, all KS projects becomes a flashy PR for what the platform can achieve (or fail).

    Look what happened after Might Number 9 and the mainstream media (major outlets) asking if KS was destined to fail. You can't act as if does not affect people.






    That is business, no one has a crystal ball allowing them to support only successful projects. You can't expect cracks to not show up in any platform. So what exactly do you expect to happen in that regard realistically, not in a "if I ruled the world fantasy"?...


    What are you guys smoking?

    I'm just saying you can't dismiss an argument by saying "if you don't want to just don't do it" where it affects the individual direct or indirectly. I'm not saying that he should hold some power to forbid people to pledge and support projects, all I am saying is that we are allowed to discuss it. Even more so on a forum thread about MMORPGs about that specific subject.

    And yes, it affects the industry. The way it affects we may discuss. I disagree with his tone and approach but it affects us intentionally or unintentionally.

    This is just a discussion.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Jacobin said:

    The MLM connection is only one element of the criticism but highly relevant because it is based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to their friends and family, which is a very similar type of activity KS has helped facilitate in recent years.

    Someone with this past soliciting public donations on his very first project in a new industry is highly suspicious.

    Most people would want to build some credibility and prove they are capable of shipping a game before asking for public handouts to support a new project. Skipping that part + being a MLM guru leads me to believe we are dealing with someone who has a massively inflated ego and is delusional about what he thinks can achieve based on what he has shown so far.




    I don't think you understand what the term "Multi-Level Marketing" means.  A "sign up fee" shouldn't be a part of a legitimate MLM plan (what does this cover?).  Having a good product to sell is hugely important; often times reps will be asked to cover the cost of a 'sample kit' so that they have something to show to customers, but this usually is at a discount.

    Saying MLM is "based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee" is just... incorrect.


    Nyctelios said:



    Distopia said:






    LIOKI said:


















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.








    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 










    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.


    Considering how staunchly you've defended crowdfunding projects that show actual reasons to be concerned about, by design and since day one, I don't think you have much ground to stand on here.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017


    CrazKanuk said:


    Ok, I'll address each of the issues individually. 

    1) Experience - First off, what's your benchmark? What's your expectation? You are setting no metric by which you're measuring. It's also been expressed multiple times that many of the people on this project have AMPLE experience (meaning years) in the gaming industry. ACTUALLY, if you check out sites like payscale, you'll find that their team actually has more experience than the majority of the industry. Same goes for programmers. The reality is that the wick of video game developers burns quickly and they usually move onto industries which pay better and require less work (which is exactly what I did). Does this satisfy your question on experience? 

    2) Shady past - I don't think this influences whether or not a game gets done. Also, you haven't provided any examples of how he's been charged with anything. So he's effectively no shadier than an Avon lady. If I'm wrong here, let me know. You're basically vilifying someone in the court of public opinion based on your own moral compass. Is that correct? Are we ok to remove this from an objective argument as something that YOU have a problem with? It's really not pertinent to getting a game made. 

    3) Stock assets are being used more regularly by many games which are operating on a shoestring budget. This is common practice and if you don't believe me, just listen to Brad McQuaid talk about it in this article. Search for "asset" in the doc to get to the question. If you'd rather not read, I clipped a quote below:
    "Rather, it works as a focal point for third party tools and/or assets, which allows talented artists to create and sell assets through Unity’s Marketplace which developers can purchase and use for prototyping or in the final product. You can see this in many projects currently in development as it’s common practice."


    Does that answer your questions? 

    I disagree because you're ruining Canadians by making outrageous, self-righteous claims that aren't fact-based. So I'm hoping that this satisfies you and you'll stop making Canadians look like idiots. 

    Oh! I also find it interesting that you're shaking your finger at me for posting because "at the same time are not backing the project so I have no idea what your stake is in all of this.", yet I'm assuming you've put ZERO money down at this point. 

    For the record, I actually am considering it. I have a whole 30 days to make that decision. I'm actually waiting for all this "exciting stuff" they talked about in their Q&A. 

    So what's your interest here exactly? If you have no plans on backing it, that is. 






    More google blogging and personal insults.

    1) My metric for industry experience for a developer is number and quality of shipped games. This is highly relevant when they are asking me to put up potentially hundreds of dollars for a multi year project.

    2) I and others have explained why MLM is ethically and morally dubious even if not illegal. Like I said above it involves convincing mostly young students and the unemployed to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to friends and family the while feeding them deluded ideas about being brilliant entrepreneurs and collecting their fees at the top of the pyramid.

    3) They are stock assets that are just cinematics and display none of the core design features. The are not placeholders showing anything relevant, just flashy content as a backdrop while they go on and on about  [insert buzz word - narrative, choice, living world, etc..].

    My interest is in being a rational consumer and looking at the project as a whole and deciding if it can deliver on its stated objectives. I do not think it should be backed at this time and am stating my reasons as to why. I have said before that if you disagree then go ahead and pledge, but people on the fence may be able to avoid wasting their money and helping set a precedent on KS that puts rich fanboys ahead of real developers.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822




    Jacobin said:


    The MLM connection is only one element of the criticism but highly relevant because it is based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to their friends and family, which is a very similar type of activity KS has helped facilitate in recent years.

    Someone with this past soliciting public donations on his very first project in a new industry is highly suspicious.

    Most people would want to build some credibility and prove they are capable of shipping a game before asking for public handouts to support a new project. Skipping that part + being a MLM guru leads me to believe we are dealing with someone who has a massively inflated ego and is delusional about what he thinks can achieve based on what he has shown so far.






    I don't think you understand what the term "Multi-Level Marketing" means.  A "sign up fee" shouldn't be a part of a legitimate MLM plan (what does this cover?).  Having a good product to sell is hugely important; often times reps will be asked to cover the cost of a 'sample kit' so that they have something to show to customers, but this usually is at a discount.

    Saying MLM is "based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee" is just... incorrect.



    Nyctelios said:





    Distopia said:








    LIOKI said:





















    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.










    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 












    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.




    Considering how staunchly you've defended crowdfunding projects that show actual reasons to be concerned about, by design and since day one, I don't think you have much ground to stand on here.


    Which KS did I defend? Now you'll try to insult me. For christ sake...
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Nyctelios said:









    That is business, no one has a crystal ball allowing them to support only successful projects. You can't expect cracks to not show up in any platform. So what exactly do you expect to happen in that regard realistically, not in a "if I ruled the world fantasy"?...




    What are you guys smoking?

    I'm just saying you can't dismiss an argument by saying "if you don't want to just don't do it" where it affects the individual direct or indirectly. I'm not saying that he should hold some power to forbid people to pledge and support projects, all I am saying is that we are allowed to discuss it. Even more so on a forum thread about MMORPGs about that specific subject.

    And yes, it affects the industry. The way it affects we may discuss. I disagree with his tone and approach but it affects us intentionally or unintentionally.

    This is just a discussion.


    Where did I tell anyone not to discuss something? I asked a question since what he said made little sense to me, I try and explain myself in every post, because I enjoy discussing such things, as I did in my response to them. If you feel I'm wrong tell me how, and I'll gladly consider your point. I won't ask you what you're smoking if I don't agree.... 

    I tried discussing how it affects us all, you asked what I'm smoking... great debate there...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822

    Distopia said:



    Nyctelios said:













    That is business, no one has a crystal ball allowing them to support only successful projects. You can't expect cracks to not show up in any platform. So what exactly do you expect to happen in that regard realistically, not in a "if I ruled the world fantasy"?...






    What are you guys smoking?

    I'm just saying you can't dismiss an argument by saying "if you don't want to just don't do it" where it affects the individual direct or indirectly. I'm not saying that he should hold some power to forbid people to pledge and support projects, all I am saying is that we are allowed to discuss it. Even more so on a forum thread about MMORPGs about that specific subject.

    And yes, it affects the industry. The way it affects we may discuss. I disagree with his tone and approach but it affects us intentionally or unintentionally.

    This is just a discussion.




    Where did I tell anyone not to discuss something? I asked a question since what he said made little sense to me, I try and explain myself in every post, because I enjoy discussing such things, as I did in my response to them. If you feel I'm wrong tell me how, and I'll gladly consider your point. I won't ask you what you're smoking if I don't agree.... 

    I tried discussing how it affects us all, you asked what I'm smoking... great debate there...


    I meant you trying to imply that the KS does not affect anyone who did not pledge. It does.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174

    Distopia said:



    Nyctelios said:









    Ah, the motivation and rationalization of the domineering fascists of the world.

    You people need to publish a list of rules for the rest to follow. :lol:






    What?




    I think he was referring to the invisible line I somehow crossed. :proud:


    The argument that "it affects me" is the core rationalization for shoving your nose in other peoples business. The argument distills down to "It doesn't benefit me so you shouldn't do it". They don't even necessarily want to play this, or any of the games they criticize, but if they do decide to do so on a whim they want it all on their terms.

    These projects, how they're structured, and how they're carried out don't directly affect those people. They don't affect the ability to offer alternatives.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Nyctelios said:








    Jacobin said:



    The MLM connection is only one element of the criticism but highly relevant because it is based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to their friends and family, which is a very similar type of activity KS has helped facilitate in recent years.

    Someone with this past soliciting public donations on his very first project in a new industry is highly suspicious.

    Most people would want to build some credibility and prove they are capable of shipping a game before asking for public handouts to support a new project. Skipping that part + being a MLM guru leads me to believe we are dealing with someone who has a massively inflated ego and is delusional about what he thinks can achieve based on what he has shown so far.








    I don't think you understand what the term "Multi-Level Marketing" means.  A "sign up fee" shouldn't be a part of a legitimate MLM plan (what does this cover?).  Having a good product to sell is hugely important; often times reps will be asked to cover the cost of a 'sample kit' so that they have something to show to customers, but this usually is at a discount.

    Saying MLM is "based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee" is just... incorrect.




    Nyctelios said:







    Distopia said:










    LIOKI said:
























    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.












    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 














    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.






    Considering how staunchly you've defended crowdfunding projects that show actual reasons to be concerned about, by design and since day one, I don't think you have much ground to stand on here.




    Which KS did I defend? Now you'll try to insult me. For christ sake...


    Dear lord, you love to conflate terms...

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7136098#Comment_7136098

    This is just a small sample.  Anyone can go over your post history and gauge for themselves.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited May 2017


    Jacobin said:










    More google blogging and personal insults.

    1) My metric for industry experience for a developer is number and quality of shipped games. This is highly relevant when they are asking me to put up potentially hundreds of dollars for a multi year project.

    2) I and other have explained why MLM is ethically and morally dubious even if not illegal. Like I said above it involves convincing mostly young students and the unemployed to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to friends and family the while feeding them deluded ideas about being brilliant entrepreneurs and collecting their fees at the top of the pyramid.

    3) Stock assets that are just cinematics and display none of the core design features. The are not placeholders showing anything relevant, just flashy content as a backdrop while they go on and on about  [insert buzz work - narrative, choice, living world, etc..].

    My interest is in being a rational consumer and looking at the project as a whole and deciding if it can deliver on its stated objectives. I do not think it should be backed at this time and am stating my reasons as to why. I have said before that if you disagree then go ahead and pledge, but people on the fence may be able to avoid wasting their money and helping set a precedent on KS that puts rich fanboys ahead of real developers.





    1) Oh!! I think I just heard some goal posts moving. Ok, so give me a breakdown of the number of games each of Intrepid Studios employees have shipped/worked on and also what we are defining as "Quality" and then what is the metric for measuring that against the industry as a whole. What is the average number of games shipped and level of quality for the average person in the industry?

    Just to be clear, they're not asking you to put up any money. Also, there are other projects which have asked for more and with less such as Chronicles of Elyria, The Repopulation, Saga of Lucimia. All these games asked for or are asking for money and provided less content that Intrepid. OH!!! Also, let's not forget that there was some home-grown success with Chivalry  which was started by a guy with zero industry experience. All he did was sell millions of copies and produce a quality game that has been enjoyed for nearly half a decade now, and he's right in Toronto! 

    2) Yes, what you're doing is describing an illegal pyramid scheme, which is categorized primarily by signing up others and profiting from signing up others rather than selling product. That's what creates the instability in the pyramid, because people are finite. HOWEVER!!! If we're talking about products, are you claiming that all MLM products are shit? I've actually got a few gifts from my mother in law which were alright. Like some colognes, etc. Also, I have plenty of Tupperware in my house. My guess is that you've got things in your house that you love which are sold via MLM. 

    3) Sooooo I answered your question on stock assets then? We're going ahead and moving the goalposts again. Now we're onto who they aren't showing gameplay? I sent gameplay videos yesterday, and they also probably contain store assets. WRT features and lingo, though, stay tuned for the next month. They are "apparently" going to reveal some cool stuff. My guess is it'll be highly overrated and very anti-climactic. 

    This is the whole dichotomy that we're dealing with. We get a crowd, such as yourself, who believes there isn't enough here to justify going to KS, but then we've got another crowd who says that projects like this are already too far along and KS is intended to be used as seed funding to START something, not continue something that already has so much. See the problem with that? For years people have been screaming for more content and more content, so your objections to content aren't unwarranted. However, what I'm saying is that there are others who believe this game has TOO MUCH gameplay, content, etc. and should be looking for more funding. 

    As far as pledging goes, please don't back this game. Also, I'd encourage anyone on the fence to NOT back the game. The game is already funded, so it either succeeds or fails without your money. If it fails then you can laugh at all the silly fucks who put money into the KS project. If it succeeds then you can enjoy it at release without having to risk any of your money up-front. For me, the value really doesn't come in until later on, anyway. In most KS projects, you might back it for $20 or $30 and get a game that releases for $60, so you save $30. So your risk CAN be worthwhile if you manage it well. With this game, at $50 you get a month of sub ($15) and a mount ($25?). So I just don't see the value. This is why I'm on the fence and I'm not sure I'll actually pony-up (no pun intended). 

    All that said, if you're not recognizing how weak your arguments are, there's nothing that I can do to help you there. Quite simply, you're speaking about an industry that you have no clue about (obviously) and you're getting schooled. So just pack it in and move along and stop trying to make your argument relevant by simply moving goalposts all over the field, and still losing. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316

    Torval said:



    Distopia said:





    Nyctelios said:












    Ah, the motivation and rationalization of the domineering fascists of the world.

    You people need to publish a list of rules for the rest to follow. :lol:








    What?






    I think he was referring to the invisible line I somehow crossed. :proud:




    The argument that "it affects me" is the core rationalization for shoving your nose in other peoples business. The argument distills down to "It doesn't benefit me so you shouldn't do it". They don't even necessarily want to play this, or any of the games they criticize, but if they do decide to do so on a whim they want it all on their terms.

    These projects, how they're structured, and how they're carried out don't directly affect those people. They don't affect the ability to offer alternatives.


    Sounds exactly like when games like LOTR went F2P and people complained.  Good thing that whole F2P concept never expanded from there and affected non-LOTR players!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822




    Nyctelios said:












    Jacobin said:




    The MLM connection is only one element of the criticism but highly relevant because it is based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee and sell trash to their friends and family, which is a very similar type of activity KS has helped facilitate in recent years.

    Someone with this past soliciting public donations on his very first project in a new industry is highly suspicious.

    Most people would want to build some credibility and prove they are capable of shipping a game before asking for public handouts to support a new project. Skipping that part + being a MLM guru leads me to believe we are dealing with someone who has a massively inflated ego and is delusional about what he thinks can achieve based on what he has shown so far.










    I don't think you understand what the term "Multi-Level Marketing" means.  A "sign up fee" shouldn't be a part of a legitimate MLM plan (what does this cover?).  Having a good product to sell is hugely important; often times reps will be asked to cover the cost of a 'sample kit' so that they have something to show to customers, but this usually is at a discount.

    Saying MLM is "based on convincing people (usually young students and desperate unemployed) to pay a sign up fee" is just... incorrect.





    Nyctelios said:









    Distopia said:












    LIOKI said:



























    Gamers are tired of it and voicing their disgust. If you don't like it then don't read them, or read them and then try to prop yourself up on some asinine commentary about their shitposts..... the real culprits here are Unity and unreal for giving out their engines for free and baiting all the mmorpg developer wannabe's out of the woodwork.














    WHy would anyone be tired of something they do not have to participate in? That makes little sense. That's like being tired of someone floating a tiny wooden boat at the community lake or being tired of a promoter putting on a show at a bar you don't even visit. 

    The only thing that would change if CF went away is nothing as far as mainstream games go, we'd have the same games publishers want to put out. That's it. Which for the MMO genre would be pretty much zilch at present, I know of one actual MMORPG in dev by a large publisher... (What ever Amazon is doing)... Who knows when that will even be shown let alone launched..So what is there to be tired of? ..... It's not like they're holding back AAA ideas because there are KS games. 
















    Ok, now you are crossing the line.

    That's the same thing as asking "why are people angry at pre orders and day one dlcs or locked content behing retails or asset flips drowning steam greenlight in shit!?".

    It affects the whole industry.

    They have their reasons and you can't dismiss it because it does not directly affect them, but it does indirectly.








    Considering how staunchly you've defended crowdfunding projects that show actual reasons to be concerned about, by design and since day one, I don't think you have much ground to stand on here.






    Which KS did I defend? Now you'll try to insult me. For christ sake...




    Dear lord, you love to conflate terms...

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7136098#Comment_7136098

    This is just a small sample.  Anyone can go over your post history and gauge for themselves.


    "HAHAHAAHAH "The Ancient Drama Ones" ... They are always watching, waiting for the right soap opera opening."

    Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/461838/boredgamers-visit-to-foundry42-uk#w0ElAZ2gtvOd72r3.99


    ?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
Sign In or Register to comment.