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Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

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  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740

    Hatefull said:



    Jacobin said:





    CrazKanuk said:



    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 






    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned.

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.


    Yes, they were in fact, bleeding money as SOE, and that is why a large portion of that studio split and became Daybreak. This, in my opinion, was the result of too much management and not enough creative freedom. Again, just my opinion. Well, I also feel that Smedly is a terrible leader in every way, I would not put him in charge of melting ice in death valley for fear her would screw it up. But this is all just my opinion, not based on anything but what I have read/seen from him.


    That is a complete rewrite of history. Sony sold the entirety of SOE to Columbus Nova. There was no split, Columbus Nova renamed SOE Daybreak Games after the purchase.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    edited May 2017
    Hatefull said:

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 




    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned. 

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.

    Yes, they were in fact, bleeding money as SOE, and that is why a large portion of that studio split and became Daybreak. This, in my opinion, was the result of too much management and not enough creative freedom. Again, just my opinion. Well, I also feel that Smedly is a terrible leader in every way, I would not put him in charge of melting ice in death valley for fear her would screw it up. But this is all just my opinion, not based on anything but what I have read/seen from him.



    From everything I've read, both publicly and anonymous comments on Glassdoor, it seems to me that SOE's problem was the exact opposite. It was too much creative freedom and not enough sensible business minds around to reign them in. Dreaming in the clouds of all these cool ideas without thinking if it was possible or how to realistically make it happen. That, and apparently terrible management, training, and hiring of employees, no standard practices for how things should be done, and lots of other really basic "Here's how you run a business of any kind" failures. Seriously if the comments are still there go read the Glassdoor page, and sign up for a temporary account so you can get past the first page of comments.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    SOE was a mess and failed to put out anything good besides maybe H1Z1 (still EA).

    A few of them + a MLM sugar daddy is going to redefine MMOs? Just like Landmark right?

    Its also come to light that most of the UE4 assets in their video are not original but from the store. There is also zero in game footage of the 'nodes' system which is supposedly the core feature of the game.
  • FreezmanFreezman Member UncommonPosts: 6

    Distopia said:

    Looks like someone needs to chill out. :)


    @Distopia

    Deep. 
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    SOE was a mess and failed to put out anything good besides maybe H1Z1 (still EA).

    A few of them + a MLM sugar daddy is going to redefine MMOs? Just like Landmark right?

    Its also come to light that most of the UE4 assets in their video are not original but from the store. There is also zero in game footage of the 'nodes' system which is supposedly the core feature of the game.




    Just to note, H1Z1 was created by a team of like 10 people. It was essentially created as a skunkworks project. Also, to address your question regarding team size. CU started with a team of like 10. Pantheon has a small team. inXile has a small team. 

    Historically speaking, smaller teams are EXTREMELY effective and often accomplish things more quickly and more effectively than larger teams. The larger your team the less productive, overall, each individual unit (or member) is. Larger teams provide diminishing returns to your software project because it increases complexity, communication breakdowns are more common, creating loopbacks, etc. In general, smaller teams are more efficient and effective. Do some research on some of the most productive software teams and they are generally smaller teams. Plus, it's cool research. 

    As far as redefining MMOs? I don't know why you would take this sort of statement literally, yet when the person tells you it's not an MLM, you don't believe them. You are simply cherry-picking what you choose to focus on. I don't think there is much redefining left to do, but it does seem like every project out there right now is aiming to do so. We can only hope that their aspirations actually come to fruition. After all, the genre could use some innovation, or so I've heard. 

    Using pre-fab assets isn't surprising. They actually mention in this Q&A that they have 1 animator. Today we have an embarrassment of riches because engines are free, and those engines have stores where we can buy assets that reduce the cost and time to create a game dramatically. It can take upwards of a month to put a new character into the game. So, when you do the math, that cost adds up quickly if you are trying to re-invent the wheel. So, yeah, I'd expect to see bought assets from a small team these days. Why re-animate humans again? right? 

    There are a couple videos on the node system. Nothing really in-game, but it illustrates the concept and it has in-engine examples. The first is mostly just an overview and the second shows more in-engine stuff. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Distopia said:








    Or... you convince lots of people to pay you lots of money for mangosteen juice!
    https://shop.xango.com/#/Products/Juice


    The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings.








    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?


    MLM in a nutshell:



    Coincidentally, a common thread I'm seeing regarding these MLM corporations (assuming they are legitimate) that get into trouble is... not pricing, but rather false advertising.  For me the takeaway is that if you make a claim or guarantee about your product or organization, you had better be able to back it up.

    This is true of all business, however.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316




    Hatefull said:





    Jacobin said:







    CrazKanuk said:




    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 








    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned.

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.



    Yes, they were in fact, bleeding money as SOE, and that is why a large portion of that studio split and became Daybreak. This, in my opinion, was the result of too much management and not enough creative freedom. Again, just my opinion. Well, I also feel that Smedly is a terrible leader in every way, I would not put him in charge of melting ice in death valley for fear her would screw it up. But this is all just my opinion, not based on anything but what I have read/seen from him.




    That is a complete rewrite of history. Sony sold the entirety of SOE to Columbus Nova. There was no split, Columbus Nova renamed SOE Daybreak Games after the purchase.

    Ok...not a complete re-write, I left out some minutiae which were completely irrelevant to the point I was making. You got me, well done. However, my points (and opinions) still stand.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316
    edited May 2017


    Leiloni said:


    Hatefull said:

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 




    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned. 

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.

    Yes, they were in fact, bleeding money as SOE, and that is why a large portion of that studio split and became Daybreak. This, in my opinion, was the result of too much management and not enough creative freedom. Again, just my opinion. Well, I also feel that Smedly is a terrible leader in every way, I would not put him in charge of melting ice in death valley for fear her would screw it up. But this is all just my opinion, not based on anything but what I have read/seen from him.



    From everything I've read, both publicly and anonymous comments on Glassdoor, it seems to me that SOE's problem was the exact opposite. It was too much creative freedom and not enough sensible business minds around to reign them in. Dreaming in the clouds of all these cool ideas without thinking if it was possible or how to realistically make it happen. That, and apparently terrible management, training, and hiring of employees, no standard practices for how things should be done, and lots of other really basic "Here's how you run a business of any kind" failures. Seriously if the comments are still there go read the Glassdoor page, and sign up for a temporary account so you can get past the first page of comments.


    First of all, Thank you for correcting me, I took your advice and went and read the comments you referenced. 

    It does seem like they are suffering from a distinct lack of leadership. And really, a driving force. They need a leader in there (again, based on comments) that can organize people, set realistic expectations, and enforce follow through.

    They are hiring for a number of positions (as is SOE which is hilarious to me) and I do not see one for any type fo leadership. Yes they are hiring some managers (and if you think managing and leading are the same, please do not comment) but what they honestly need is a GM that can task identify, ask hard questions and then hold people accountable when they do not produce on a set timeline. S/he would also need to do some development of teams, that seems to be a big deal (comments) and communications. It is hard for me to fathom how a game company can't get communications sorted out...on second thought no it's not hard at all.

    Seriously, an MBA, or even a bachelor's with Olead or Business admin would do them wonders. In my opinion and again, based solely on comments that are being made in that forum.

    Thank you again @Leiloni I do enjoy a good discussion, even if I start out ill-informed :)

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:

    SOE was a mess and failed to put out anything good besides maybe H1Z1 (still EA).

    A few of them + a MLM sugar daddy is going to redefine MMOs? Just like Landmark right?

    Its also come to light that most of the UE4 assets in their video are not original but from the store. There is also zero in game footage of the 'nodes' system which is supposedly the core feature of the game.

    Planetside 1 and 2 (2 was out well before the SOE/Daybreak (or since I am being sniped for useless points the Columbus Nova/SIE World Wide Studios/Daybreak split) split)
    Everquest and EQ 2
    DC Universe online
    Star Wars Galaxies
    PayDay

    Just some of the more popular games created by SOE, prior to recent events that can be argued were quite good games.

    SWG may be considered a bad game, due to bugs etc, but I really enjoyed that game more so than any other so you can consider that an opinion, the rest stand on their own merits.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174
    In its heyday SoE had an awesome stable of games and at a certain point the all access subscription gave you a ton of gaming access for $15 - $20/mo. I wish more studios published their games under a single sub.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017



    CrazKanuk said:



    istorically speaking, smaller teams are EXTREMELY effective and often accomplish things more quickly and more effectively than larger teams. The larger your team the less productive, overall, each individual unit (or member) is. Larger teams provide diminishing returns to your software project because it increases complexity, communication breakdowns are more common, creating loopbacks, etc. In general, smaller teams are more efficient and effective. Do some research on some of the most productive software teams and they are generally smaller teams. Plus, it's cool research. 

    As far as redefining MMOs? I don't know why you would take this sort of statement literally, yet when the person tells you it's not an MLM, you don't believe them. You are simply cherry-picking what you choose to focus on. I don't think there is much redefining left to do, but it does seem like every project out there right now is aiming to do so. We can only hope that their aspirations actually come to fruition. After all, the genre could use some innovation, or so I've heard.






    The CU comparison is nowhere near the same and I don't know why you constantly bring it up. Marc Jacobs successfully released 2 major MMORPGs and City State Games had made a mobile game before CU. A developers history also counts, not just what is in the KS itself.


    MLM guru Steven Sharif has no IT management experience and has only successfully delivered a wordpress website and a video showcasing a few minutes UE4 store assets with next to no gameplay. If he had anything else to show I would also take that into account. I guess you can point to SOE games, but none of the recent ones were successful MMOs and we do not know how involved the 1 dev and 2 designers were.


    I do not believe Ashes itself is MLM, but the KS marketing tactics are similar - take a bad or average product and make it look like gold in order to mislead and take advantage of people.

    KS has taken a reputation hit in recent years due to scams and now we have a genuine scammer making an MMO and people are throwing money at him. I wouldn't care if he wasn't going to the public for money. Generally, you don't ask for donations on your very first project in any industry.

    You keep linking peripherally related google articles about broad industry trends. Finding an article that says small teams can be effective does not mean Intrepid will be effective.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    istorically speaking, smaller teams are EXTREMELY effective and often accomplish things more quickly and more effectively than larger teams. The larger your team the less productive, overall, each individual unit (or member) is. Larger teams provide diminishing returns to your software project because it increases complexity, communication breakdowns are more common, creating loopbacks, etc. In general, smaller teams are more efficient and effective. Do some research on some of the most productive software teams and they are generally smaller teams. Plus, it's cool research. 

    As far as redefining MMOs? I don't know why you would take this sort of statement literally, yet when the person tells you it's not an MLM, you don't believe them. You are simply cherry-picking what you choose to focus on. I don't think there is much redefining left to do, but it does seem like every project out there right now is aiming to do so. We can only hope that their aspirations actually come to fruition. After all, the genre could use some innovation, or so I've heard.




    The CU comparison is nowhere near the same and I don't know why you constantly bring it up. Marc Jacobs successfully released 2 major MMORPGs and City State Games had made a mobile game before CU. A developers history also counts, not just what is in the KS itself.


    MLM guru Steven Sharif has no IT management experience and has only successfully delivered a wordpress website and a video showcasing a few minutes UE4 store assets with next to no gameplay. If he had anything else to show I would also take that into account. I guess you can point to SOE games, but none of the recent ones were successful MMOs and we do not know how involved the 1 dev and 2 designers were.


    I do not believe Ashes itself is MLM, but the KS marketing tactics are similar - take a bad or average product and make it look like gold in order to mislead and take advantage of people.

    You keep linking peripherally related google articles about broad industry trends. Finding an article that says small teams can be effective does not mean Intrepid will be effective.




    You missed the point, the point was that smaller dev teams are traditionally more efficient than larger ones. 

    As far as experience goes, again, it's nice to have experienced people run projects but there are also reasons that Brad McQuaid and Chris Roberts no longer "run" the day to day operations of their project. This guy is the creative director. So he might tell a game designer what he'd like to see, and they make that happen. The fact he doesn't have a technical background makes it more difficult to communicate the technical aspects of what he's attempting, but as long as he trusts his technical people, the impact to the overall project is minimal, or should be. NOW! If the management is set up in such a way that he has final say and is inflexible and doesn't work well with others, then you could have a problem. Especially if he's being unrealistic about what he wants to see. 

    There has been some gameplay videos published as well with combat, etc. Here's one and another.

    I'm not trying to insinuate that BECAUSE Intrepid is small that they WILL be good. I'm not saying it's an inevitability. What I AM saying is that PLENTY of games are developed by small teams and that small teams ARE more efficient than a larger team. If you assemble a small team of shitty people then I'm assuming they'll get more shitty work done, per unit, than a group of larger shitty people. 

    HOWEVER! I would go as far as to say that the CONTENT available at the time of the Ashes Kickstarter, including the gameplay videos attached, they have shown more CONTENT than most, or any, game that I've seen go through Kickstarter recently. The only other game that had as much content available at the time of their Kickstarter was probably Dual Universe. 

    As far as MLM goes, again, the quality of their product doesn't define it as an MLM. If you think the game will be shit, then you can just say that. There are plenty of examples of MMORPGs which went through Kickstarter and wound up being shitty (SotA and Pathfinder Online come to mind immedaitely). However, just because those games turned out shitty, doesn't mean they were MLM. It means they were shitty. THAT I can respect. If you have zero confidence in the team, that's one thing, but claiming it's an MLM scheme makes you look silly. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    I guess I weigh a developers track record a lot more highly than you do in that even if a KS is light, a series of successful launches within the same industry matters more than a video with a few minutes of cinematic UE4 store assets and a known scammer telling me how great his next project will be.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Jacobin said:

    I guess I weigh a developers track record a lot more highly than you do in that even if a KS is light, a series of successful launches within the same industry matters more than a video with a few minutes of cinematic UE4 store assets and a known scammer telling me how great his next project will be.


    You make some great points in this thread; I almost want to believe you, but throwing terms like "known scammer" around really undermines your position.

    Being involved in MLM doesn't mean one is involved in a scam.  To be successful at it involves a lot of hard work, like most other careers.  Unlike a scam, it involves getting people what they pay for.

    On the other hand, when a project lead absorbs roughly 1/3 of a startup company's seed capital for personal expenses... that's much closer to the actual definition of a scam.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    This isn't some guy who worked his way up like he claims on reddit. His familial connections got him close to the top of the pyramid.

    And no, I won't hold back or dance around terms when it comes to pyramid schemes. Its is a deeply disgusting model that fills the minds of mostly the young and vulnerable with delusions of grandeur when in reality all it is doing is soliciting a sign-up fee and pushing garbage, overpriced products on friends and family.

    When you ask the public for donations for your very first project and this is your history it needs to be called out.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Jacobin said:

    This isn't some guy who worked his way up like he claims on reddit. His familial connections got him close to the top of the pyramid.

    And no, I won't hold back or dance around terms when it comes to pyramid schemes. Its is a deeply disgusting model that fills the minds of mostly the young and vulnerable with delusions of grandeur when in reality all it is doing is soliciting a sign-up fee and pushing garbage, overpriced products on friends and family.

    When you ask the public for donations for your very first project and this is your history it needs to be called out.


    Tell that to the CEO sipping champagne and playing putt-putt on the 50th floor of a high rise.

    Pyramid schemes are illegal; MLM isn't.  Your ignorance is showing through.  Whatever though, I'm not here to educate you.

    I just think it's funny how hard you are trying to character assassinate this guy.  He's done nothing wrong that I can see.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316




    Jacobin said:


    This isn't some guy who worked his way up like he claims on reddit. His familial connections got him close to the top of the pyramid.

    And no, I won't hold back or dance around terms when it comes to pyramid schemes. Its is a deeply disgusting model that fills the minds of mostly the young and vulnerable with delusions of grandeur when in reality all it is doing is soliciting a sign-up fee and pushing garbage, overpriced products on friends and family.

    When you ask the public for donations for your very first project and this is your history it needs to be called out.




    Tell that to the CEO sipping champagne and playing putt-putt on the 50th floor of a high rise.




    Is that the same guy asking average folks not sipping champagne to give him money?

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  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017




    Tell that to the CEO sipping champagne and playing putt-putt on the 50th floor of a high rise.

    Pyramid schemes are illegal; MLM isn't.  Your ignorance is showing through.  Whatever though, I'm not here to educate you.

    I just think it's funny how hard you are trying to character assassinate this guy.  He's done nothing wrong that I can see.


    If he is asking the general public for donations to his pet project then the public has every right to verify his background and the veracity of his claims.

    Maybe rich + technically not illegal is enough for you but ethics and morality do count for some people especially when he is selling future promises.

    Rich = trustworthy/good person seems to come up frequently as a defense for this project and it shows a very troubling trend of wealth/celebrity worship that has embedded into western culture.
  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Member UncommonPosts: 596
    Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't mean it's right or good. Obviously right or good will depend on your moral views, but IMO MLM people are scammy.


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,007

    Jacobin said:







    Tell that to the CEO sipping champagne and playing putt-putt on the 50th floor of a high rise.

    Pyramid schemes are illegal; MLM isn't.  Your ignorance is showing through.  Whatever though, I'm not here to educate you.

    I just think it's funny how hard you are trying to character assassinate this guy.  He's done nothing wrong that I can see.



    If he is asking the general public for donations to his pet project then the public has every right to verify his background and the veracity of his claims.

    Maybe rich + technically not illegal is enough for you but ethics and morality do count for some people especially when he is selling future promises.

    Rich = trustworthy/good person seems to come up frequently as a defense for this project and it shows a very troubling trend of wealth/celebrity worship that has embedded into western culture.


    Not at all.  Rich = trustworthy/good... what?  Did you see me pull that card?

    On the other hand, speaking of privilege, I understand that certain careers do take a lot of work; direct marketing, of which MLM is just a subset, is one of them.  If anything, that he made his way from this into real estate, shows work ethic.

    No where am I advocating fraud, which you and most of the internet seem to have magically come to equate with MLM in the last couple years (they are going to have to re-write some textbooks if this is true).

    I am not trying to draw any sort of correlation between income and moral standing.  I certainly don't think it's an ethical failing to be gainfully employed.  If you think it's easy to earn money through MLM then go for it, and bon voyage!

    What I implied in my previous post, and @Slapshot1188 deftly riffed on, is that... there's so many different ways to say this... the world needs mechanics, plumbers, and sales clerks more than it needs astrophysics PhDs and high-powered CEOs.  All of these serve important roles, but the latter probably wouldn't be careers if the former weren't careers.

    You say the general public has every right to verify the background of someone asking for a handout and I agree.  I see earning enough through network marketing to get into real estate as a plus.  He is a driven individual.

    Conversely, some people are handed a check for $145k and use a huge portion of it very irresponsibly.  Yet years later the general public hardly bats an eye as his company secures Series A funding.

    People that mismanage funds successfully over a long period are usually very good at hiding it (until it just becomes too big to hide).  Network marketing, MLM, is not a career where you get to hide from people.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822
    They made Slave Labor legal here by calling another name. 
    Bash your head as much you want about MLM. If you want cool videos as proof of cool stuff I have some here of flat earth and creationism.

    Anyway. The Q&A stream is live now.
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174
    edited May 2017







    danwest58 said:







    Nyctelios said:




    [mod edit]





    [mod edit]





    Dude... you went too far there. I guarantee you that's not how the community wants to be represented.




    Maybe a tiny bit too caustic and abrasive, but not really wrong at the core. You can see this sort of thing on every single indie forum - CIG/SC, Shroud, CU, Crowfall, CoE, Pantheon. Someone was to relentlessly dig through the personal shit of every person on the team and then throw passive aggressive barbs at anyone who supports the project.

    I'm not saying there isn't merit or place for such discussions, but talk about taking things too far. These personal and project vendettas are way too far. They stop talking about the merits or problems of the project or design features and start making that personal with the studio and its supporters.
    Post edited by Vaross on
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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited May 2017


    Nyctelios said:
    [mod edit]



    Steve is already on here and has commented previously. Unfortunately he probably has more important work to do than us. He just got a million dollars of funding for his game and is planning how to spend it. For the rest of us, we are probably just hanging out waiting on another SC thread to pop up :)
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Nyctelios said:

    The funny part is my previous post defending this game is not a MLM.


    Honestly you're all over the place on this, you did say this earlier. "When it has clues that leads to nefarious schemes you can't blame them really."

    It's like you're trying to play this from all sides, at some point the message you're sending just becomes convoluted. 

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  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,822
    edited May 2017


    Distopia said:





    Nyctelios said:



    The funny part is my previous post defending this game is not a MLM.






    Honestly you're all over the place on this, you did say this earlier. "When it has clues that leads to nefarious schemes you can't blame them really."

    It's like you're trying to play this from all sides, at some point the message you're sending just becomes convoluted. 





    I'll apologize, since there are 2 threads about it I could have mixed the posts.

    What I meant with clues is what someone said above: People can research about what they are investing on and maybe if some things (like his previous ties to MLM) are kinda vague they'll fill those voids. Some will rationally seek answers, some goes full Lizard-people Illuminati controlling the world. 

    Now, you can't censure them, you can just clarify it.

    And there is no sides. I'm not playing in favor or against anyone. I work with the information given.

    The project seems nice, the actual assets are amazing, as it seems they'll make LoTRO monster play non-instanced and tied to GW2 dynamic events (which I love) - I'm worried about the lack of concept art for those mounts and rewards on the tiers in the KS, but the focus was on the guy himself... And then it derailed to people defending MLMs.
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