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Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

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  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    CrazKanuk said:

    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 


    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned.

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262

    Nyctelios said:








    Nyctelios said:



    Ok; But none addressed his worries about past ties to MLM.







    Is being tied to MLM something to be worried about? 

    It seems like everyone on the internet more or less takes it for granted that MLM is evil.  I guess a majority of people work in flat organizations?

    As long as you have an actual product on your hands, I don't get why it's demonized any more than a brick and mortar franchise.  You have levels of executives profiting off of the work of many there also, not to mention additional overhead for retail space. 




    I never said a thing about the product itself. I'm talking about the project and it's development. If you don't think MLM schemes are a problem I won't be the one to drawn it out for you - - because I live where I live and I know what I know. This is not the matter of the subject even if I would gladly tell you about it. I also don't think it has any impact whatsoever on the game itself. I never said anything on that regards.

    I actually like a lot the team behind it... Just some actions worries me - - as I pointed it out.

    The same way some actions from Chris Robert worries people following Star Citizen development even if they don't reflect the skills of a 3d modeler to make a ship or animate a character.








    Nyctelios said:







    Grakulen said:




    They guy made his money from MLM. He is now using that money to make a game. I don't think they are using sketch artists though.

    As much as I dislike MLM companies it's hard to say this game is a MLM scheme. Yes they have a referral program. No it's not an MLM scheme.

    Question the veracity of the designers all you want. There past work speaks for itself. Either you like it or you don't. 

    Full disclosuer: I'm not backing the game on KickStarter. But then again most people that know me could have probably guessed that already.








    This game is not MLM, they can't risk that or some huge problems would happen in the future.

    This also his reaction to someone asking about animations on stream worries me a little.






    What was his reaction?




    He went really passive-aggressive towards the question. That kind of behavior is a red flag for me. For me. This is my opinion and my impression about him - not the game. Since there is little to discuss about the game at this time (besides concepts).


    I watched the stream live and did not have that reaction. It came across as just another developer trying to be friendly while answering a question and reassuring people that animations will continue to be polished as the game progresses. He understood, as I did, that the question came out of concern and he was trying to alleviate those concerns. I don't remember feeling like any of his reactions were odd when I watched the stream.

    This is coming from someone who hasn't given any money to the game and while I hope it does well, I'll be totally fine if it doesn't. Like most games I'm watching, I'm merely a hopeful observer with no skin in the game. I criticize games I am hoping do well as much as I try to support them, so I think I have a fairly neutral view. And so with that, I didn't see anything weird with the stream. But you already think very negatively of him and have an agenda to make him fail, so your interpretation of it is questionable at best.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    edited May 2017



    Grakulen said:



    They guy made his money from MLM. He is now using that money to make a game. I don't think they are using sketch artists though.

    As much as I dislike MLM companies it's hard to say this game is a MLM scheme. Yes they have a referral program. No it's not an MLM scheme.

    Question the veracity of the designers all you want. There past work speaks for itself. Either you like it or you don't. 

    Full disclosuer: I'm not backing the game on KickStarter. But then again most people that know me could have probably guessed that already.






    He's clarified previously on this website and again today on Reddit that most of his money came from real estate and investments. 

    Here's the link to that:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/68tk1l/why_the_ashes_of_creation_referral_program_is_not/dh1912j/

    He just strikes me as another entrepreneur.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 




    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned.

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.

    Yes, they were in fact, bleeding money as SOE, and that is why a large portion of that studio split and became Daybreak. This, in my opinion, was the result of too much management and not enough creative freedom. Again, just my opinion. Well, I also feel that Smedly is a terrible leader in every way, I would not put him in charge of melting ice in death valley for fear her would screw it up. But this is all just my opinion, not based on anything but what I have read/seen from him.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    edited May 2017






    Jacobin said:






    How you can equate a guy with zero industry experience and a fresh college grad who are spouting off buzz word after buzz with few concrete details as 'smart' business and 'strong' leadership is a pretty amazing feat of mental gymnastics. You would think a consultant of all people would be able see past the marketing haze.

    A lot of dirt is coming out on Reddit.

    Edit: The fresh college grad CFO is married to the billionaire MLM creative director who is financing this.












    You don't become a self made multi millionare who has enough "Fuck you money" to fund his own dream MMO by the age of 31 by being a dumbass with good luck. No such thing exists. You do that by making smart business decisions and having the drive to self motivate and work hard - in his case over a variety of industries for over 15 years. 

    This is like the people who say our billionaire President is a dumbo too. You don't have to like either of them or what they're doing, but simple logic dictates both of them know what they're doing - even if you don't personally understand it yourself.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,793

    Jacobin said:



    CrazKanuk said:


    Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 




    This is another misconception.

    SOE had been a terrible company that was bleeding money for quite a while which is why it crashed and burned.

    You can blame Smedley or management but I wouldnt look to the people behind EQnext, Landmark and Planetside 2 for the next under 2 year low budget game that will revolutionize the genre.


    Well now, I don't know about revolutionizing the genre (too many players are looking for that and I don't think that's something someone can just "plan") but I think you are correct in blaming former Sony Entertainment management.

    management is responsible for budgets, hiring the right people to manage their projects, etc.

    If you are saying that the people who are in charge of this new company are the same managers then you have a point. But if they aren't the people who called the shots at Sony Entertainment then it's an unknown quantity.

    So "yeah" their team does seem competent and able to make a game. If the people who were in charge of budgets, making final decisions at Sony are these very same people then your point stands. Otherwise this might as well be a brand new start to a brand new company.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    Leiloni said:
    simple logic dictates both of them know what they're doing - even if you don't personally understand it yourself.


    Perhaps his mom helped him out by getting him into the business, just like the President's dad did for him?
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Leiloni said:

    You don't become a self made multi millionare who has enough "Fuck you money" to fund his own dream MMO by the age of 31 by being a dumbass with good luck. No such thing exists. You do that by making smart business decisions and having the drive to self motivate and work hard - in his case over a variety of industries for over 15 years.



    Or you be the son of the person supplying the products to the pyramid scheme.

    He was very good at convincing people that they would become rich by selling overpriced juice, vitamins and other garbage to friends and family.

    If the guy is such a genius and self funding a dream game, why is he asking for KS donations?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Jacobin said:



    Leiloni said:


    You don't become a self made multi millionare who has enough "Fuck you money" to fund his own dream MMO by the age of 31 by being a dumbass with good luck. No such thing exists. You do that by making smart business decisions and having the drive to self motivate and work hard - in his case over a variety of industries for over 15 years.





    Or you be the son of the person supplying the products to the pyramid scheme.

    He was very good at convincing people that they would become rich by selling overpriced juice, vitamins and other garbage to friends and family.

    If the guy is such a genius and self funding a dream game, why is he asking for KS donations?


    Because you don't get rich by putting all of your money into the toys you'd like to see made?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Distopia said:


    Because you don't get rich by putting all of your money into the toys you'd like to see made?


    Exactly, you find a whole new market of suckers and sell them a fake dream.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316

    Leiloni said:








    Jacobin said:







    How you can equate a guy with zero industry experience and a fresh college grad who are spouting off buzz word after buzz with few concrete details as 'smart' business and 'strong' leadership is a pretty amazing feat of mental gymnastics. You would think a consultant of all people would be able see past the marketing haze.

    A lot of dirt is coming out on Reddit.

    Edit: The fresh college grad CFO is married to the billionaire MLM creative director who is financing this.














    You don't become a self made multi millionare who has enough "Fuck you money" to fund his own dream MMO by the age of 31 by being a dumbass with good luck. No such thing exists. You do that by making smart business decisions and having the drive to self motivate and work hard - in his case over a variety of industries for over 15 years. 




    Or... you convince lots of people to pay you lots of money for mangosteen juice!
    https://shop.xango.com/#/Products/Juice


    The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings.


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    A big part of his 'success' is being related and friends with people at the top of the pyramid scheme.

    The nepotism continues by making his recent liberal arts grad boytoy er... husband the CFO.
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,274
    edited May 2017
    To be honest, I don't give a flying fuck how much experienced these people have, what they did before, if they can boil eggs or their CEO are a shady evil genius.

    I follow a game I find interesting, will it succeed or will it fail?, dunno, but what I've seen and read and been on discord, yes this one has far better chance than the rest of the KS projects I've seen of late.

    The point is, they are trying to make something different, not a classic themepark, and that I think should be in all of us MMORPG players interest, no?


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited May 2017





    Or... you convince lots of people to pay you lots of money for mangosteen juice!
    https://shop.xango.com/#/Products/Juice


    The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings.






    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Distopia said:

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?


    If she starts asking you to donate to her amazing new MMO then maybe.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262




    Leiloni said:
    simple logic dictates both of them know what they're doing - even if you don't personally understand it yourself.




    Perhaps his mom helped him out by getting him into the business, just like the President's dad did for him?


    Unless his Mom sat by his side every day at the office they both earned it themselves. I've worked in business long enough to see enough privileged kids who can't do the most basic of things, while also seeing people who are smart and hard working get quite far regardless of how much privilege they do or do not have. I've even interviewed someone who we later hired based on a recommendation from their family member who was higher up in the company, albeit working in a different part of it. He wasn't the most stellar of employees and I was not sad to see him go. Connections can get you a job, but they can't make you do it well.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316
    edited May 2017




    Distopia said:

















    Or... you convince lots of people to pay you lots of money for mangosteen juice!
    https://shop.xango.com/#/Products/Juice


    The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings.














    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?






    #132 on the list of of 2014 
    http://networkmarketingandmuslims.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/8/8/10885605/businessforhome.org-top_250_life_time_earners_in_mlm.pdf


    Is it his company? Not as far as I can tell but I believe both he and his mother are listed as top earners.  http://www.mlmfan.com/person/sharon-steven-sharif
    ---------------------------------------------
    Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? See below: 


    False advertising claims[edit]
    Pericarp xanthones and potential health effects[edit]
    According to a 2006 warning by the US Food and Drug Administration, XanGo's distributors had illegally used marketing materials to promote mangosteen juice claiming more than 20 human health benefits, including "anti-inflammatory," "anti-microbial," "anti-fungal," "anti-viral," "anti-cancer," "anti-ulcer," "anti-hepatotoxic," "anti-rhinoviral," and "anti-allergic" effects.[35] Promotional literature for the product cites antioxidants from the inedible pericarp of the fruit as providing health benefits. None of these claims, however, has scientific proof established by peer-reviewed research and human clinical trials, as discussed below.

    The American Cancer Society profile of mangosteen juice states there is no reliable evidence that mangosteen juice, purée, or bark is effective as a cancer treatment in humans.[36] As of April 2013, it also states that the mangosteen "fruit has been shown to be rich in anti-oxidants. Very early laboratory studies suggest it may have promise as a topical treatment for acne. Early small laboratory and animal studies suggest that further research should be done to determine whether it can help to prevent cancer in humans." [37]


    U.S. FDA warning[edit]
    On September 20, 2006, the United States Food and Drug Administration issued a Warning Letter to Xango LLC International in response to the company's promotion of Xango Juice as an aid to treat and/or cure various diseases.[46] The agency's letter warned that Xango Juice had not been properly tested for safety and efficacy, and as a proposed new drug, it could not be legally sold in the U.S. without prior approval of the FDA. Xango was warned that it could face enforcement action including seizure and/or injunction of products or suspension of business. Under FDA drug labeling rules, Xango, as manufacturer, is responsible for satisfying scientific criteria to make health claims on its product labels and all marketing materials. As of September 2008, the case remained open.

    Effectiveness[edit]
    The Mayo Clinic said in October 2005 that "there are no published clinical trials showing evidence that either the fruit or its juice – marketed under the name Xango Juice – is an effective treatment for arthritis, cancer or any other disorder in humans."[47] In 2011 the Mayo Clinic reiterated that "it is still too early to say for sure what role mangosteen juice has in treating arthritis symptoms."[41]

    In February 2006, the U.C. Berkeley Wellness Newsletter, sponsored by the University of California at Berkeley, said that "Mangosteen marketers make farfetched and unsubstantiated claims for their products." The newsletter notes that "there are no clinical trials, and what happens in a test tube or animal may not occur in a human. Any reported benefits in humans have been anecdotal. No one even knows if the processed fruit juice and capsules retain the potentially beneficial compounds. What’s more, the juice is typically a mix of fruit juices – with an undisclosed amount of mangosteen in it." [48]

    Ralph Moss, an alternative cancer treatment advocate,[49] has said of mangosteen juice:

    In my opinion, what we have here is simply an overpriced fruit drink. Fruit drinks are often healthful beverages. But the only reason I can see that the promoters of mangosteen can get away with charging $37 for this product is that they are playing on patients' hopes and fears in a cynical way. Without the health claims, open or implied, the product could only be sold for at most $5 or $6 (which, for example, is the cost of antioxidant-rich pomegranate juice).[50]

    A 2008 medical case report described a patient with severe acidosis possibly attributable to a year of daily use (to lose weight, dose not described) of mangosteen juice (brand not described) infused with xanthonoids,[51] as occurs in the manufacture of XanGo juice. The authors proposed that chronic exposure to alpha-mangostin, a xanthone, could be toxic to mitochondrial function,[52] leading to impairment of cellular respiration and production of lactic acidosis.

    Italian anti-trust action[edit]
    In 2011 Italy's anti-trust and consumer protection authority, the AGCM, suspended the activities of Xango in response to over-broad health claims, as well as possible violations of pyramid scheme laws.[53]

    Litigation[edit]
    Tahitian Noni International[edit]
    Tahitian Noni International (TNI), a rival MLM beverage company, sued Xango, LLC, and several of its top executives in February 2003 in the 4th District Court in Provo, Utah, alleging that Xango executives stole TNI's concept for a mangosteen-based supplement while they were employed by TNI's parent-company. After a countersuit against TNI was launched by Xango, LLC, the two parties settled out of court. A joint statement by TNI and Xango said that they had "agreed to resolve their disputes and the litigation between them and their founders" but the particulars of the settlement were not disclosed.[54]


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316
    Mismanagement allegations[edit]

    In 2009 The State of Utah's Supreme Court gave the green light to a XanGo investor to proceed with a suit that alleges corporate looting and mismanagement of millions of dollars by the Lehi supplements company's founders for their personal expenses including luxury cars and performance-enhancing medical treatments. In a 5-0 decision issued the Utah Supreme Court overturned a 4th District Court ruling that dismissed a lawsuit filed in 2007 by Angel Investors LLC alleging XanGo's founders took millions of dollars in personal loans from the company and paid themselves excessive salaries while wasting corporate assets.[55] In 2010 XanGo settled with Angel Investors for an undisclosed amount of money. "Angel Investors, who had owned no more than 1 percent of the Lehi company, had charged in three lawsuits in Utah County that the founders deprived them of some of the return on their investment. The group cited such expenditures as $6,000 monthly auto allowances, family vacations and, in one case, $20,000 worth of home furnishings." The terms of the settlement were not disclosed.[56]

    In 2013 XanGo Founder Bryan Davis filed a lawsuit accusing his partners of spying, threatening employees, falsifying distributor positions to siphon off funds, defrauding on XanGo taxes and their personal taxes, falsifying records, changing credit card statements, charging as business expenses to purchase grand pianos, vacations, home renovations, landscaping, electronics, expensive bicycles, scooters, and for CEO Aaron Garrity, an open expense account for one mistress.

    According to the lawsuit, Garrity embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars in assets from the company, writing off clothing, medical enhancements, jewelry, event tickets, bicycles, electronics and chartered planes and vacations as business expenses. CFO Nate Brown set up secret founder accounts for Garrity and others to allow them to improperly spend XanGo assets.

    Davis also alleges in the lawsuit that Garrity’s assistant, Andrea Waterfall, with whom he was in a relationship, had a company credit card that she used for personal expenses, and that Garrity sent in fraudulent expense reports.

    Other allegations include Garrity using power and influence as a founder to threaten XanGo employees into turning a blind eye to his theft and instituting what he termed a “culture of giving” at XanGo meaning that founders and employees Garrity determined were in his good graces could unlimitedly use XanGo assets for their personal benefit.

    The lawsuit further reports founders are alleged to have used XanGo employment and forced qualified distributor positions to siphon XanGo assets to family members and friends.

    Davis alleges the founders conspired to give themselves illicit distributions through a tax fraud scheme and that the founders also formed various competing companies with XanGo assets. He is also claiming that the founders took steps to freeze him out of the company — ignoring Davis’ objections to wrongful conduct, falsifying board minutes to reflect unanimous consent to actions to which he had voiced objections, XanGo employees were told not to talk to Davis under penalty of termination, that founders also falsely claimed to XanGo employees that he had resigned his position at XanGo and disparaged him. As a result, Davis said XanGo withheld bonus/distribution payments to Davis as well as discontinuing employee benefits.

    The lawsuit further states that Garrity has also misused XanGo’s security department to retaliate against Davis, Angel, leaders and founders of competing MLMs and XanGo distributors and employee, according to the suit; Garrity allegedly asked Justin Barrett to use his access to law enforcement databases to find information on these individuals that was not on public record, which information Garrity could then use to his advantage. He also requested that the XanGo Security Department obtain non-traceable wireless accounts for him for the purpose of online corporate intelligence gathering, dissemination of information and posting defamatory comments about competitors, distributors, employees and others. A bogus account was illegally created under the fictitious name “John Gable.”

    The XanGo board’s attorney said the accusations are fabricated because Davis is attempting to extract an inflated buyout from them for his shares in the company. Benevento said several months ago, the XanGo board offered Davis a separation agreement due to his ongoing failure to fulfill his responsibilities and that Davis has failed to show up for work yet still expects a regular paycheck.

    Garrity’s attorney refuted the claim, saying the allegations are to help Davis inflate his share holdings for a greater profit.[57]

    Also in 2013 XanGo filed an action against Bryan Davis in the Third Judicial District Court (Utah and Salt Lake City) refuting Mr Davis claims in his lawsuit and claiming that Mr Davis was negligent in his duties.[58]

    Taxation issues[edit]

    In 2012 XanGo had issues concerning taxes. "At the top of 2012 tax delinquency lists was $347,816 owed for the Lehi headquarters of Xango, a multilevel marketing company that sells nutritional supplements — which has its name on the uniforms of Real Salt Lake soccer players. That property is owned by Thai Properties, which is part of the same corporate group as Xango, said Nate Brown, chief financial officer for Xango".[59]

    ----------------

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316
    What role did he play in that company? Not sure but here is one complaint that names him:
    A  24th of Oct, 2015 by   Jecv  0 Votes
    My young son came home as a gal who knew him through school asked to talk to him about Zango. When he met her there was a guy there that showed him his nice car and watches. He came home and told me about this new opportunity and he was going to a meeting that week. When he came home from the meeting he was talking about how he could make a lot of money by selling a drink and was so excited as they were going to give him the whole area to sign up his friends. His sponsor, the little 20 yr. old girl that signed him up was going to take on the big city north. I quickly googled drink scams and Bingo, I showed him what people had been told and how they get young college kids sign up by getting them to these meetings and taking their money right away for some kit. Asked him about this drink that he knew nothing about, but said he could make $2, 000 a week and get a much better car. That they really liked him and giving him a large sales territory, his home town with all his friends to sign up. Wow what young teenage boy would t take that deal. I called the bank as he was still on his high school checking account and the ZANGO transaction had not shown as going though yet. Chase saidI had to call the company as he paid with his ATM . I called Zango and they said, his kit already shipped (before money had shown taken out of account). I told them we would t be accepting the package and it would go back to them. It took another phone call from my son, a couple weeks later to follow up on but we did get the $101.41 back in his account. Today he received a welcome letter, and 3 sponsors names. Names are listed after their title- Your Sponsor, Your Sponsor s Sponsor and then the Upline Sponsor whose name is Steven J Sharif. What a pyramid scheme they have going! This company needs to be shut down!!!
    ---------------------------
    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?   Quite possibly... does she resemble a Stepford Wife?

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,998
    I personally do not feel it matters one way or another if they have ever done anything because MOST of what i have seen in the industry i see as half assed to not liking it at all.

    I also can see what i am looking at quite clearly so i recognize almost immediately if something looks promising or just a marketing ploy.
    MOST of what this site deploys onto users is marketing either in your face or disguised marketing.

    So if a user introduced us to this game,we might take a better look at it but the little i have seen already tells me it will not be a triple A game,so why would i want to play it?Because it might carry some FREE to play tag,pfft not even a remotely good reason to waste my time playing a game i won't play past day 1.
    Now if i at least see a glimmer of hope that the game might be decent with the ability to improve,i might stick around but the core basic world map design is just a complete fail and tells me what to really expect from this developer.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182





    Distopia said:
















    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?






    Is it his company? Not as far as I can tell but I believe both he and his mother are listed as top earners.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? See below: 







    While informative on XanGo, it really doesn't say much about his role in that. While an ugly practice, false claims in our food stuffs is quite common, be it false health benefits or make up of ingredients. Even well known companies get in trouble for that far to often. I was looking more for something that speaks to his own guilt of wrong doing. I don't hold a MCy"ds employee accountable when they get slammed by the FDA for their Beefs make up, nor any other fast food or food processing plant's employee. That's just people doing what they gotta do to earn their pay. 


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316

    Distopia said:









    Distopia said:



















    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?








    Is it his company? Not as far as I can tell but I believe both he and his mother are listed as top earners.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? See below: 









    While informative on XanGo, it really doesn't say much about his role in that. While an ugly practice, false claims in our food stuffs is quite common, be it false health benefits or make up of ingredients. Even well known companies get in trouble for that far to often. I was looking more for something that speaks to his own guilt of wrong doing. I don't hold a MCy"ds employee accountable when they get slammed by the FDA for their Beefs make up, nor any other fast food or food processing plant's employee. That's just people doing what they gotta do to earn their pay. 




    Thus go back to my original statement above:
    "The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings."



    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,316

    Distopia said:









    Distopia said:



















    If they can get people to spend that much on a couple bottles of juice, more power to them. Secondly I really don't see how that relates to this game? Is it his company? Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? What role did he play in that company?

    Should I kick the crap out of that avon lady because she's a spawn of hell?








    Is it his company? Not as far as I can tell but I believe both he and his mother are listed as top earners.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Have they been sued? Have they been found guilty of illegal deeds? See below: 









    While informative on XanGo, it really doesn't say much about his role in that. While an ugly practice, false claims in our food stuffs is quite common, be it false health benefits or make up of ingredients. Even well known companies get in trouble for that far to often. I was looking more for something that speaks to his own guilt of wrong doing. I don't hold a MCy"ds employee accountable when they get slammed by the FDA for their Beefs make up, nor any other fast food or food processing plant's employee. That's just people doing what they gotta do to earn their pay. 




    Thus go back to my original statement above:
    "The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings."



    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,275
    For the marketing that is, is pretty normal. Ain't any boogie man or big conspiracy behind it.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182









    Thus go back to my original statement above:
    "The question to me... is Ashes of Creation his new Mangosteen Juice?  Or is it something more?  I honestly don't know and have very mixed feelings."





    That's understandable, I was just trying to say how he made his millions, isn't really important if he had no hand in the wrong doing of his past employer(s). He could have just been lucky enough to get into something when the getting into was good. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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