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Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

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  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    Hatefull said:
    Fact: Business majors know business. One could argue that Brad MCquaid has a pretty good resume of game design and yet e could not get Vanguard to succeed.<snip>

     But we aren't, we are discussing how you fail to understand how business works alongside game development.



    Let's compare the two CFOs then.

    Visionary Realms CFO "With over 25 years of financial and operational management experience, "
    http://visionaryrealms.com/team/tim-sullivant/

    Intrepid CFO has zero financial and operational management experience.


    Both CFOs could be amazing, but one certainly has more experience.  And for people that know business, having the top financial person with experience calling the shots means a great deal.


    As for Vanguard, the game was rushed out unfinished and too big in scope.  Brad's sin was the cowardly way he fired his employees and inflexibility to adjust from his 'vision' due to technical limitations at the time.  For Pantheon his role is more an advisorial one and other people are leading the charge.  He acknowledged his strengths and letting other people run the business.  There's a lot of legitimate concerns about him and his past, so I think it's a good decision with his team makeup.  
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316
    edited May 2017


    Jacobin said:


    That is my point, industry veterans can't make a KS game - so why should we trust this guy? Because some random business guru made a quote once?

    A CFO is a highly experienced accountant, not a brand new liberal arts grad.

    You are putting your faith into a guy who made his money by convincing people to sell overpriced garbage to their friends and family.

    He is a sugar daddy with an MMO fetish. Good luck with that.


    LMAO well, I was trying to have a serious discussion with you but, and quite humorously, you just do no know how to do this. Jack Welch...some random business guru, that right there is priceless. Here before you embarrass yourself any further, take a look at this. Random business guru, that is hilarious.

    You are in fact no way qualified to discuss business practice, you have made that glaringly apparent. Again, very humorously so.

    You have a good day and hey, feel free to hit me up when you care to discuss some facts. lol

    Read this as well. This time it's free.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    You keep avoiding the very specific and valid concerns with the team and project and instead insert quotes that in no way address these problems.

    Fawning over celebs/gurus seems to be your specialty so this project is perfect.

    BTW I have an amazing business opportunity, its just $500 up front but you will be soon be your own boss  making several thousand dollars a week in the health products industry.....
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    That is my point, industry veterans can't make a KS game - so why should we trust this guy? Because some random business guru made a quote once?

    A CFO is a highly experienced accountant, not a brand new liberal arts grad.

    You are putting your faith into a guy who made his money by convincing people to sell overpriced garbage to their friends and family.

    He is a sugar daddy with an MMO fetish. Good luck with that.



    Not true, there are plenty of games made by industry vets. Google inXile. That being said, take a look at Pantheon and Star Citizen. Both required that the company figureheads give way to people who are better at running a company, for the betterment of the company. Generally speaking, you want your "Hopes and Dreams" guy to be your Creative Director, not your CEO. 

    Again, I'd have to disagree with you on what CFOs need. Granted, they might be from the finance field, that isn't a requirement. Check out there responsibilities and also this article on what makes a good CFO. Notice that it doesn't say you need to be a really good accountant. Actually, I'd say accountants would make horrible CFOs only because they are more introverted people who tend to land in the area of a "C" type personality (check DiSC). What that means is that they are hyper-analytical, tactical people who are more solitary and aren't really people-person types. They do require the analytical minds, though, which would make an accountant who is good with people a great candidate.

    Let's see, lawyers, real estate agents, car dealers, anyone working on commission. Mechanics, electricians, plumbers, really any trades person. Each and every one of these people have fucked someone at some time. Shit! Even Marc Jacobs took your money and he didn't offer you 100% assurance that he was going to deliver, right? 

    I am putting my faith into nobody. In fact, I haven't decided whether or not I'll back this based on the fact that delivery of MMORPGs via crowdfunding has a storied history of NOT delivering. This could be the year that changes that, though, if you have faith in CU still, that is, and Pantheon, and SC, and Shards Online, and Albion Online. 

    In the end, YOU backed Marc Jacobs with LESS of a plan and less content than what these guys have. That's a FACT. I can appreciate that you might take issue with their team, but you're not providing any actual insight into why this will fail, it's all based on bias and pre-conceived notions about his past. Do you have the same problem with people who sell Avon or Mary Kay? Maybe next time one of those people come to your house you should fire the book back in their face and tell them to fuck off because they're scumbags, lol. I'd actually love seeing that video on YouTube. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • WaldoeWaldoe Member UncommonPosts: 642


    Deep concerns about this whole project after doing some research.

    For starters look at who is the about for this game.
    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/the-team/

    Literally almost no one has any experience in the gaming industry.  I have no idea where they're getting those logos from because they sure aren't acknowledging them in the bios.  The only exception is one artist.

    Now lets look at the the Creative Director.  The guy running this whole thing.

    He worked with Xango, a multi-level marketing company.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XanGo

    The company itself is questionable about it's legality in operations.  Making claims in the past about the product doing more than what it actually can do.  It's a juice and the claims were that it can basically cure you of multiple ailments.  

    Here he is doing the ice bucket challenge for the company.


    John Oliver did a show on it, explaining how these companies operate.


    Now let's look at their referral program.
    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/referral-program/

    Sound familiar?



    Lost all credibility when referencing a comedian as a legitimate source of facts or news. You must be one of those millennials that used the Colbert Report and the Daily Show to get your "news" too.

    While it is true that Steven Sharif, worked for Xango for a while, its not like he created the company and was responsible for its overall operation and/or morale standards. Really a stretch to connect the dots on the negative picture you are trying to paint there.

    John Moore has a background in business which makes a whole lot more sense than a game industry vet with no business background managing the financial front. Even if Moore's experience is little to none I'd still says its better because of the foundation he has.

    Also, research is really hard. 

    Jeffery Bard - Worked at SOE for 8 years. Everquest II specifically named as a game he worked on.

    Jason Crawford - Worked at SOE for over 10 years. Worked on EQ: Next, Landmark and a couple unreleased titles. 

    Michael Bacon - Started his own company Big Shiny Games and created a 2D shooter called Retro Assault. He also worked at SOE for 10 years working on Everquest II and other unnamed titles.

    Tryston Snodgrass - Worked on Bioshock and XCOM. Previously a main level developer for the Point of Existence 2 Mod for Battlefield 2.

    David Thorfield - Worked several years as an animator for Jumpstart, the company that creates educational game for children.

    Jon Arelleno - Seems to be a more junior member of the team but even he worked for Daybreak for a time and helped develop mobile games for Octopro games.

    Keith Kovach - While he has years of experience with his particular craft, none of it appears to be in the gaming industry.

    Jeff Delliere - Worked for a Canadian video game company called Behavior Interactive doing artwork. He also did illustration and artwork for well known publisher HarperCollins and Nickelodeon.

    Peter Pilone - No additional information available.

    Matthew Reynolds - No additional information available.

    A handful of the guys worked at SOE for almost 10 years or more so it is completely plausible that at some point or another SWG, Planetside, Vangaurd and the original EQ were things they worked on, even if it was brief. The only connection that can't be logically made with the information at hand is to CoD/Treyarch, but that could also be one of the two guys that there was no additional information on.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:

    You keep avoiding the very specific and valid concerns with the team and project and instead insert quotes that in no way address these problems.

    Fawning over celebs/gurus seems to be your specialty so this project is perfect.

    BTW I have an amazing business opportunity, its just $500 up front but you will be soon be your own boss  making several thousand dollars a week in the health products industry.....

    LOl and you have yet to present a legitimate business concern, nor one fact to back up any of your claims. Your very specific and valid concerns are specific I give you that, but founded in YOUR OPINION based on what is obviously a distinct lack of any type of business knowledge. In short, you are too ignorant to discuss this topic. So stop, as I said before you only succeed in embarrassing yourself. 

    I own my own business in the International Security field, I also do consulting and training. I have in the recent past and will in the future high people just out of school to help me run my business, and to date, I have seen some real good success with that.

    Also, fawning? Seriously? Showing respect to one of the most respected business leaders on the planet is not fawning it is, however, being an intelligent, secure, well-adjusted, and mature person. 

    At any rate, I do need to get to work, so we are done here. As a side note, if you look into your local community college for the introduction to business courses, you may be able to, in the future have an actual discussion on these topics, without ahem, being embarrassed.

    Good day, we are done here.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    CrazKanuk said:

    Again, I'd have to disagree with you on what CFOs need. Granted, they might be from the finance field, that isn't a requirement.


    Having a Business Management degree of some sort should certainly be a requirement for a CFO.  

    Saying that a CFO shouldn't be required to have any experience in the financial field is crazy.

    Here's bullet points of responsibilities -

    • Accomplishes finance human resource strategies by determining accountabilities; communicating and enforcing values, policies, and procedures; implementing recruitment, selection, orientation, training, coaching, counseling, disciplinary, and communication programs; planning, monitoring, appraising, and reviewing job contributions; planning and reviewing compensation strategies.
    • Develops finance organizational strategies by contributing financial and accounting information, analysis, and recommendations to strategic thinking and direction; establishing functional objectives in line with organizational objectives.
    • Establishes finance operational strategies by evaluating trends; establishing critical measurements; determining production, productivity, quality, and customer-service strategies; designing systems; accumulating resources; resolving problems; implementing change.
    • Develops organization prospects by studying economic trends and revenue opportunities; projecting acquisition and expansion prospects; analyzing organization operations; identifying opportunities for improvement, cost reduction, and systems enhancement; accumulating capital to fund expansion.
    • Develops financial strategies by forecasting capital, facilities, and staff requirements; identifying monetary resources; developing action plans.
    • Monitors financial performance by measuring and analyzing results; initiating corrective actions; minimizing the impact of variances.
    • Maximizes return on invested funds by identifying investment opportunities; maintaining relationships with the investment community.
    • Reports financial status by developing forecasts; reporting results; analyzing variances; developing improvements.
    • Updates job knowledge by remaining aware of new regulations; participating in educational opportunities; reading professional publications; maintaining personal networks; participating in professional organizations.
    • Accomplishes finance and organization mission by completing related results as needed.

    Chief Financial Officer Skills and Qualifications:

    Financial Planning and Strategy, Managing Profitability, Strategic Planning, Vision, Quality Management, Promoting Process Improvement, Forecasting, Corporate Finance, Developing Budgets, Financial Skills, Dealing with Complexity

    https://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/recruiting-hiring-advice/job-descriptions/chief-financial-officer-job-description-sample.aspx


    I mean on some of this stuff you can't argue.  These are facts.  Fact is a CFO needs/should be required to have some financial background.  I mean the name is Chief FINANCIAL Officer.  Are there other requirements in addition?  Yes.  That's why you normally see experienced people with business management experience in these roles.  At the very least they usually have a MBA in lieu of real work experience.


  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    University of Google oh my..

    Saying an accountant would not make a good CFO is hilarious. Go lookup up bios on basically any CFO for a large company and 99% are accountants or from finance. 

    Marc Jacobs was very specific about his vision and mechanics prior to KS and while CU did not have content he had a track record of building one of the most successful and influential games in the genre (and also a flop).

    Its funny to me that the guys who defend the game the most are not even backers. You call me a troll yet you are the ones who want to argue for something you have no stake in. 


  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Member UncommonPosts: 596
    edited May 2017
    This KS turned sketchy as F. I hope it all turns out fine. I want the game to succeed, but I personally wouldn't back this even if I was filthy rich. I'd much rather back Pantheon with the sketchy background of Brad and the initial donation money being used for medical stuff than this one.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,352
    edited May 2017
    @PottedPlant22, If you don't trust the company's management / employees, then by all means don't back the project.

    Personally, I couldn't even tell you the name of the CFO (or even if they had one) when I backed other MMO Kickstarters (Pantheon, Crowfall, CoE). The fact that Intrepid Studios even has their business management thought out at this stage, gives me more confidence, not less...
    --------------------------------------------
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Hatefull said:

    LOl and you have yet to present a legitimate business concern, nor one fact to back up any of your claims. Your very specific and valid concerns are specific I give you that, but founded in YOUR OPINION based on what is obviously a distinct lack of any type of business knowledge. In short, you are too ignorant to discuss this topic. So stop, as I said before you only succeed in embarrassing yourself. 

    I own my own business in the International Security field, I also do consulting and training. I have in the recent past and will in the future high people just out of school to help me run my business, and to date, I have seen some real good success with that.

    Also, fawning? Seriously? Showing respect to one of the most respected business leaders on the planet is not fawning it is, however, being an intelligent, secure, well-adjusted, and mature person. 

    At any rate, I do need to get to work, so we are done here. As a side note, if you look into your local community college for the introduction to business courses, you may be able to, in the future have an actual discussion on these topics, without ahem, being embarrassed.

    Good day, we are done here.


    Yeah god forbid I have an opinion on a gaming forum.

    And there it is, roll out the resume to bring in more red herrings that in no way relate to the concerns about this project. I am doing just fine btw, no need for me to follow in your Alma-matar footsteps.


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130




    CrazKanuk said:

    Again, I'd have to disagree with you on what CFOs need. Granted, they might be from the finance field, that isn't a requirement.




    Having a Business Management degree of some sort should certainly be a requirement for a CFO.  

    Saying that a CFO shouldn't be required to have any experience in the financial field is crazy.

    Here's bullet points of responsibilities -

    • Accomplishes finance human resource strategies by determining accountabilities; communicating and enforcing values, policies, and procedures; implementing recruitment, selection, orientation, training, coaching, counseling, disciplinary, and communication programs; planning, monitoring, appraising, and reviewing job contributions; planning and reviewing compensation strategies.
    • Develops finance organizational strategies by contributing financial and accounting information, analysis, and recommendations to strategic thinking and direction; establishing functional objectives in line with organizational objectives.
    • Establishes finance operational strategies by evaluating trends; establishing critical measurements; determining production, productivity, quality, and customer-service strategies; designing systems; accumulating resources; resolving problems; implementing change.
    • Develops organization prospects by studying economic trends and revenue opportunities; projecting acquisition and expansion prospects; analyzing organization operations; identifying opportunities for improvement, cost reduction, and systems enhancement; accumulating capital to fund expansion.
    • Develops financial strategies by forecasting capital, facilities, and staff requirements; identifying monetary resources; developing action plans.
    • Monitors financial performance by measuring and analyzing results; initiating corrective actions; minimizing the impact of variances.
    • Maximizes return on invested funds by identifying investment opportunities; maintaining relationships with the investment community.
    • Reports financial status by developing forecasts; reporting results; analyzing variances; developing improvements.
    • Updates job knowledge by remaining aware of new regulations; participating in educational opportunities; reading professional publications; maintaining personal networks; participating in professional organizations.
    • Accomplishes finance and organization mission by completing related results as needed.

    Chief Financial Officer Skills and Qualifications:

    Financial Planning and Strategy, Managing Profitability, Strategic Planning, Vision, Quality Management, Promoting Process Improvement, Forecasting, Corporate Finance, Developing Budgets, Financial Skills, Dealing with Complexity

    https://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/recruiting-hiring-advice/job-descriptions/chief-financial-officer-job-description-sample.aspx


    I mean on some of this stuff you can't argue.  These are facts.  Fact is a CFO needs/should be required to have some financial background.  I mean the name is Chief FINANCIAL Officer.  Are there other requirements in addition?  Yes.  That's why you normally see experienced people with business management experience in these roles.  At the very least they usually have a MBA in lieu of real work experience.






    Yup, an MBA is mentioned quite frequently. As far as experience goes, I've seen a few different flavors and some don't even mention anything financial. I've seen multiple posts for "8-10 years Senior Management Experience". 

    All I'm saying is that you don't need a history in finance in order to be a CFO. Also, in the case of this company, the CFO is more likely the purse strings and bookkeeper. This isn't a public company, they don't have shareholders, they don't work with a myriad of vendors. So the CFO is pretty much a label. So is the CEO for that matter.

    Would it offend you if I named myself the CFO of my own company? Or named my wife the CFO of my company? Yes! If you are applying to Google to be their CFO you might want some financial experience. However, there's also a storied history of CEOs being hired on as CFOs or CTOs or other C type positions. It's not that they, necessarily, have the experience gained by rising through the ranks of that discipline, but that they have experience managing at that level. THAT skill is what's most important. Go take a look at the skills list I linked above. 

    Did you even read what you posted? How much of those responsibilities are actually happening within a small group of 10-20 people? It's effectively zero. This whole job description boils down to an over-complicated mess. It's effectively, they oversee the finances of the company and ensure that there is accountability within the organization with regards to their spending and that they are aligned with their forecasts and then reports on how they are trending in relation to those forecasts. Oh! And they take some training courses throughout the year. 

    Again, I'll acknowledge that if you were applying to a global organization who REQUIRED a CFO then finance skills would definitely be an asset, but we're talking about what amounts to a family business here. In reality it doesn't even necessitate a CFO. Essentially that CFO is a bookkeeper, and someone could take a weekend course for that. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:



    Hatefull said:


    LOl and you have yet to present a legitimate business concern, nor one fact to back up any of your claims. Your very specific and valid concerns are specific I give you that, but founded in YOUR OPINION based on what is obviously a distinct lack of any type of business knowledge. In short, you are too ignorant to discuss this topic. So stop, as I said before you only succeed in embarrassing yourself. 

    I own my own business in the International Security field, I also do consulting and training. I have in the recent past and will in the future high people just out of school to help me run my business, and to date, I have seen some real good success with that.

    Also, fawning? Seriously? Showing respect to one of the most respected business leaders on the planet is not fawning it is, however, being an intelligent, secure, well-adjusted, and mature person. 

    At any rate, I do need to get to work, so we are done here. As a side note, if you look into your local community college for the introduction to business courses, you may be able to, in the future have an actual discussion on these topics, without ahem, being embarrassed.

    Good day, we are done here.




    Yeah god forbid I have an opinion on a gaming forum.

    And there it is, roll out the resume to bring in more red herrings that in no way relate to the concerns about this project. I am doing just fine btw, no need for me to follow in your Alma-matar footsteps.



    You offered me a business opportunity, I refused it stating I am already in business, sorry if that offended you, no reason to be defensive. Some community colleges offer really good programs. I went to a bit more recognized institution, but I do not look down on anyone that is trying to better themselves. However, those that are content to languish in ignorance, I tend to take shots at.

    Opinions are fine, but you are trying to create a discussion based on no facts, and lack of knowledge of the topic. Ok, so in your opinion, they made a staffing mistake and that will cause the game to suck/fail/never be complete. Got it, noted. I disagree, I think they are making sound business decisions and the game has a chance at being made barring some other influence ie the CFO dying.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    I can't believe this needs to be spelled out but hiring your husband who is a new liberal arts grad with zero experience does not inspire confidence in management ability and competence.

    Its gives the impression that they are running a Mickey Mouse operation, not a company that is promising the near impossible - revolutionize the genre in under 2 years with a small budget.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    I can't believe this needs to be spelled out but hiring your husband who is a new liberal arts grad with zero experience does not inspire confidence in management ability and competence.

    Its gives the impression that they are running a Mickey Mouse operation, not a company that is promising the near impossible - revolutionize the genre in under 2 years with a small budget.



    I'm sort of in the same place. I'm a little different, though. Call me foolish, but I'd back the one that shows actual video footage. Oh! Also, it gives me warm and fuzzies when there is also pre-alpha footage of the game already. That's just me, though. Maybe you're a big fan of corporate management teams. Personally, I have never paid very close attention to that sort of thing. 

    Watch the two videos below and you tell me what you'd be more likely to back. 


    or 




    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,174
    Of all the upcoming indie, edgy, or crowdfunded mmos I think CU is the most likely to launch successfully with its original vision more or less intact. Of this lot, if one lasts 10 years I think it will be CU.

    That said, I decided to back this game. I'm not one to back mmos mostly because I know how things change as they cook and I've been a bit burnt out on that. Preference is a weird thing though and if I can get a year of dinking around in the game plus pre-launch time for my pledge then I'll be happy.

    I like to do this stuff as a hobby - play, test, support artistic development. So if I can do that for a reasonable contribution (my cap is about $150) then I get personally interested. I like projects that are interested in common gamer feedback and not just the rich and elite.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Torval said:

    Of all the upcoming indie, edgy, or crowdfunded mmos I think CU is the most likely to launch successfully with its original vision more or less intact. Of this lot, if one lasts 10 years I think it will be CU.

    That said, I decided to back this game. I'm not one to back mmos mostly because I know how things change as they cook and I've been a bit burnt out on that. Preference is a weird thing though and if I can get a year of dinking around in the game plus pre-launch time for my pledge then I'll be happy.

    I like to do this stuff as a hobby - play, test, support artistic development. So if I can do that for a reasonable contribution (my cap is about $150) then I get personally interested. I like projects that are interested in common gamer feedback and not just the rich and elite.



    I don't disagree with anything you are saying. The point I'm trying to make is simply that if you had these two KS introduction videos against each other today, I'd probably feel more confident in backing Ashes because they actually show in-game footage and gameplay. I mean it's always possible that sort of thing is smoke and mirrors, but I've said from the beginning that MJ got lucky. John Romero made 2 tech-light KS campaigns and failed on both. Brad McQuaid made one tech-light KS campaign and failed. As far as technology goes, these guys give, probably, one of the most complete tech intros that I've seen, rivaling maybe Dual Universe. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    It just shows the power of marketing and why MLM is so successful.

    Industry vets like Marc Jacobs and J Todd get called lairs and scammers, meanwhile a completely unknown guy with no experience comes in with a history of MLM scamming and a flashy video and people are saying "give him a chance!" "He means well!" "Hes a business guy and therefore the right man!"
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    It just shows the power of marketing and why MLM is so successful.

    Industry vets like Marc Jacobs and J Todd get called lairs and scammers, meanwhile a completely unknown guy with no experience comes in with a history of MLM scamming and a flashy video and people are saying "give him a chance!" "He means well!" "Hes a business guy and therefore the right man!"



    Is that what you've sold yourself? Nobody here called MJ or J Todd scammers, did they? 

    I think you're projecting a little bit here. What I asked is which pitch video appears to have a greater chance of being made? Then you got all bent out of shape because I'm right. However, you admittedly backed CU, which is totally fine, but you categorically did NOT back CU based on the content in their video, you backed it based on hopes and dreams because below is the height of their KS tech videos. So, that's cool, you love MJ and J Todd, that's cool. They've done a lot of great things. Don't sit there and act like they sold you on something more than a vision, though. 





    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:

    It just shows the power of marketing and why MLM is so successful.

    Industry vets like Marc Jacobs and J Todd get called lairs and scammers, meanwhile a completely unknown guy with no experience comes in with a history of MLM scamming and a flashy video and people are saying "give him a chance!" "He means well!" "Hes a business guy and therefore the right man!"

    There are plenty of industry vets on the team, you can look at their resumes to see that. So are you going to make a legit point...ever? You have nothing but conspiracy theory and quite frankly, BS. Oh yes and a heaping dose oh: Nuh-uh. 

    To be quite clear, I am not arguing against Marc or Todd, I am just saying, you say they have experience, so does the Ashes team, or does only the people YOU like have experience that counts? 

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    The team has SOE experience but only 1 or 2 are developers. The rest are game designers and artists.

    Lots of ideas and promises, not much tech to back it up.

    You're the business dude right? How likely is it for a company with 750k + A sugar daddy and 2 programmers to revolutionize a multi-billion dollar industry in under 2 years?
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,316

    Jacobin said:

    The team has SOE experience but only 1 or 2 are developers. The rest are game designers and artists.

    Lots of ideas and promises, not much tech to back it up.

    You're the business dude right? How likely is it for a company with 750k + A sugar daddy and 2 programmers to revolutionize a multi-billion dollar industry in under 2 years?

    Here let me help you:

    Jacobin: Yes, there is plenty of experience on the team, would you like to predict their chance of success on being able to deliver their promise?

    Hatefull: Well, no, I will not make a prediction, but I will say based on the fact that they have hired the right people to do the right jobs and the fact that they have a playable alpha already and certain financial backing, along with a successful Kickstarter, they have at least a much of a chance at delivering a game as any small game studio out there right now. Will they change the industry? I have no way of knowing that.

    Jacobin: Wel you make some good points, but I still disagree with you, I feel they made a big mistake in hiring a friend and an un-tested CFO, nor do I find their backing reliable.

    Hatefull: Well I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.

    Jacobin: Indeed we will.

    The end.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:

    The team has SOE experience but only 1 or 2 are developers. The rest are game designers and artists.

    Lots of ideas and promises, not much tech to back it up.

    You're the business dude right? How likely is it for a company with 750k + A sugar daddy and 2 programmers to revolutionize a multi-billion dollar industry in under 2 years?



    I don't know, Crowfall was seeking $800k, yet it's in pre-alpha!!! I know this because I just got an email on it. All that on JUST the money they made in their KS ;P




    PS: Do you REALLY think that it's likely that $750k is the budget for this game? 

    Also, revolutionary doesn't mean that it will be successful. Ask Betamax and HD DVD. In fact, it's highly unlikely that they will even take 5% of the market. We're talking about someone that is unproven. Games like CU, Pantheon, CoE, Ashes, Albion Online, Shards Online are all seeking to prove that this "market" even exists outside of the bubble of the Internet. Nobody even knows if it's sustainable or how large it is. 


    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017


    CrazKanuk said:





    Is that what you've sold yourself? Nobody here called MJ or J Todd scammers, did they? 

    I think you're projecting a little bit here. What I asked is which pitch video appears to have a greater chance of being made? Then you got all bent out of shape because I'm right. However, you admittedly backed CU, which is totally fine, but you categorically did NOT back CU based on the content in their video, you backed it based on hopes and dreams because below is the height of their KS tech videos. So, that's cool, you love MJ and J Todd, that's cool. They've done a lot of great things. Don't sit there and act like they sold you on something more than a vision, though.



    Yes I backed 2 games 4 years ago which is why I am now very cynical. KS was a new thing back then and people didn't really know what to expect but both games were from day 1 were going for a niche market.

    What tiggers me now is that we have a full blown, bona fide scam artist with zero experience making even larger promises with less money and talent and people are lapping it up.


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:




    CrazKanuk said:







    Is that what you've sold yourself? Nobody here called MJ or J Todd scammers, did they? 

    I think you're projecting a little bit here. What I asked is which pitch video appears to have a greater chance of being made? Then you got all bent out of shape because I'm right. However, you admittedly backed CU, which is totally fine, but you categorically did NOT back CU based on the content in their video, you backed it based on hopes and dreams because below is the height of their KS tech videos. So, that's cool, you love MJ and J Todd, that's cool. They've done a lot of great things. Don't sit there and act like they sold you on something more than a vision, though.




    Yes I backed 2 games 4 years ago which is why I am now very cynical. KS was a new thing back then and people didn't really know what to expect but both games were from day 1 were going for a niche market.

    What tiggers me now is that we have a full blown, bona fide scam artist with zero experience making even larger promises with less money and talent and people are lapping it up.





    Yup! And both games are approaching the release phases of their game. I'd say that you probably made good bets. Could be worse, I put my money into The Repopulation. That didn't work out as well. I also put money into SC, which has been continual drama. 

    Now is this guy a scam artist? Meh... He's selling nutritional supplements. The reality about nutritional supplements is that there is no studies proving that any of them work. You know how when you have lots of vitamins your pee changes color and smells funny? Yeah, that's cuz your body doesn't need it. In fact, there are no scientific studies which prove the legitimacy of nutritional supplements. So it's a whole multi-billion dollar industry that's based on lies. Sooooooo am I going to demonize someone for selling something and making claims that aren't scientifically supported? Nope! Not if dumb people buy it. That's not a scam artist, though. 

    Also, we don't know how much money he's invested, so it could actually be more money. He is selling in a multi-billion dollar industry, right? 

    Also, we can't really comment on talent. That's a pretty subjective thing. Tell me about how the Crowfall and City State teams are "more talented". It's pretty difficult to do. 

    Anyway, yeah, I get it. You're not a fan of the game. I'm not even sure I'm going to back it at this point myself based on my own experience. However, that has nothing to do with their team. Their team seems completely competent and able to make a game. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

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