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Ashes of Creation and the Multi-Level Marketing connection

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  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002









    Nyctelios said:
















    Nyctelios said:





    Ok; But none addressed his worries about past ties to MLM.











    Is being tied to MLM something to be worried about? 

    It seems like everyone on the internet more or less takes it for granted that MLM is evil.  I guess a majority of people work in flat organizations?

    As long as you have an actual product on your hands, I don't get why it's demonized any more than a brick and mortar franchise.  You have levels of executives profiting off of the work of many there also, not to mention additional overhead for retail space. 








    I never said a thing about the product itself. I'm talking about the project and it's development. If you don't think MLM schemes are a problem I won't be the one to drawn it out for you - - because I live where I live and I know what I know. This is not the matter of the subject even if I would gladly tell you about it. I also don't think it has any impact whatsoever on the game itself. I never said anything on that regards.

    I actually like a lot the team behind it... Just some actions worries me - - as I pointed it out.

    The same way some actions from Chris Robert worries people following Star Citizen development even if they don't reflect the skills of a 3d modeler to make a ship or animate a character.














    Nyctelios said:











    Grakulen said:






    They guy made his money from MLM. He is now using that money to make a game. I don't think they are using sketch artists though.

    As much as I dislike MLM companies it's hard to say this game is a MLM scheme. Yes they have a referral program. No it's not an MLM scheme.

    Question the veracity of the designers all you want. There past work speaks for itself. Either you like it or you don't. 

    Full disclosuer: I'm not backing the game on KickStarter. But then again most people that know me could have probably guessed that already.












    This game is not MLM, they can't risk that or some huge problems would happen in the future.

    This also his reaction to someone asking about animations on stream worries me a little.










    What was his reaction?








    He went really passive-aggressive towards the question. That kind of behavior is a red flag for me. For me. This is my opinion and my impression about him - not the game. Since there is little to discuss about the game at this time (besides concepts).






    I have a master's in international business; I don't need it drawn out for me. As I intimated in my above post I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons one might go for a MLM approach over traditional brick and mortar (overhead being a big one).

    The guy in an office building is profiting from the actions of someone two levels beneath him.  MLM is no more guilty than this provided there is an actual product or service being disseminated. 




    If in fact you do have a master's in international business you should be well aware that in many jurisdictions MLMs are illegal and even where not are regarded as being shady practice verging on pyramid marketing schemes that are illegal.


    I like what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it:

    "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s probably not. It could be a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money."

    https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/multilevel-marketing

    So one thing to look for is whether the target market is the general public or simply additional distributors.  I understand there are blurred lines and I'm all for questioning everything; however I'm not for assuming guilt based on alternative business structures.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,815
















    Nyctelios said:




















    Nyctelios said:






    Ok; But none addressed his worries about past ties to MLM.













    Is being tied to MLM something to be worried about? 

    It seems like everyone on the internet more or less takes it for granted that MLM is evil.  I guess a majority of people work in flat organizations?

    As long as you have an actual product on your hands, I don't get why it's demonized any more than a brick and mortar franchise.  You have levels of executives profiting off of the work of many there also, not to mention additional overhead for retail space. 










    I never said a thing about the product itself. I'm talking about the project and it's development. If you don't think MLM schemes are a problem I won't be the one to drawn it out for you - - because I live where I live and I know what I know. This is not the matter of the subject even if I would gladly tell you about it. I also don't think it has any impact whatsoever on the game itself. I never said anything on that regards.

    I actually like a lot the team behind it... Just some actions worries me - - as I pointed it out.

    The same way some actions from Chris Robert worries people following Star Citizen development even if they don't reflect the skills of a 3d modeler to make a ship or animate a character.

















    Nyctelios said:













    Grakulen said:







    They guy made his money from MLM. He is now using that money to make a game. I don't think they are using sketch artists though.

    As much as I dislike MLM companies it's hard to say this game is a MLM scheme. Yes they have a referral program. No it's not an MLM scheme.

    Question the veracity of the designers all you want. There past work speaks for itself. Either you like it or you don't. 

    Full disclosuer: I'm not backing the game on KickStarter. But then again most people that know me could have probably guessed that already.














    This game is not MLM, they can't risk that or some huge problems would happen in the future.

    This also his reaction to someone asking about animations on stream worries me a little.












    What was his reaction?










    He went really passive-aggressive towards the question. That kind of behavior is a red flag for me. For me. This is my opinion and my impression about him - not the game. Since there is little to discuss about the game at this time (besides concepts).








    I have a master's in international business; I don't need it drawn out for me. As I intimated in my above post I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons one might go for a MLM approach over traditional brick and mortar (overhead being a big one).

    The guy in an office building is profiting from the actions of someone two levels beneath him.  MLM is no more guilty than this provided there is an actual product or service being disseminated. 






    If in fact you do have a master's in international business you should be well aware that in many jurisdictions MLMs are illegal and even where not are regarded as being shady practice verging on pyramid marketing schemes that are illegal.




    I like what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it:

    "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s probably not. It could be a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money."

    https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/multilevel-marketing

    So one thing to look for is whether the target market is the general public or simply additional distributors.  I understand there are blurred lines and I'm all for questioning everything; however I'm not for assuming guilt based on alternative business structures.


    Yes. And they are clashing with brazilian government due many MLM creators coming here to hide from them because they used MLM to hide illegal operations. And, well, we are talking about the land of corruption here - - so they found their safe haven.

    Slave labor is legal here too. Will you preach about it? Don't need to paste info here, you are lecturing no one but yourself.

    MLM are as real and legit as homeopathy or chiropractic treatments - - which is also legal and supported with federal funds here.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

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    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; EvE Online

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,348

    Nyctelios said:
























    Nyctelios said:
























    Nyctelios said:







    Ok; But none addressed his worries about past ties to MLM.















    Is being tied to MLM something to be worried about? 

    It seems like everyone on the internet more or less takes it for granted that MLM is evil.  I guess a majority of people work in flat organizations?

    As long as you have an actual product on your hands, I don't get why it's demonized any more than a brick and mortar franchise.  You have levels of executives profiting off of the work of many there also, not to mention additional overhead for retail space. 












    I never said a thing about the product itself. I'm talking about the project and it's development. If you don't think MLM schemes are a problem I won't be the one to drawn it out for you - - because I live where I live and I know what I know. This is not the matter of the subject even if I would gladly tell you about it. I also don't think it has any impact whatsoever on the game itself. I never said anything on that regards.

    I actually like a lot the team behind it... Just some actions worries me - - as I pointed it out.

    The same way some actions from Chris Robert worries people following Star Citizen development even if they don't reflect the skills of a 3d modeler to make a ship or animate a character.




















    Nyctelios said:















    Grakulen said:








    They guy made his money from MLM. He is now using that money to make a game. I don't think they are using sketch artists though.

    As much as I dislike MLM companies it's hard to say this game is a MLM scheme. Yes they have a referral program. No it's not an MLM scheme.

    Question the veracity of the designers all you want. There past work speaks for itself. Either you like it or you don't. 

    Full disclosuer: I'm not backing the game on KickStarter. But then again most people that know me could have probably guessed that already.
















    This game is not MLM, they can't risk that or some huge problems would happen in the future.

    This also his reaction to someone asking about animations on stream worries me a little.














    What was his reaction?












    He went really passive-aggressive towards the question. That kind of behavior is a red flag for me. For me. This is my opinion and my impression about him - not the game. Since there is little to discuss about the game at this time (besides concepts).










    I have a master's in international business; I don't need it drawn out for me. As I intimated in my above post I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons one might go for a MLM approach over traditional brick and mortar (overhead being a big one).

    The guy in an office building is profiting from the actions of someone two levels beneath him.  MLM is no more guilty than this provided there is an actual product or service being disseminated. 








    If in fact you do have a master's in international business you should be well aware that in many jurisdictions MLMs are illegal and even where not are regarded as being shady practice verging on pyramid marketing schemes that are illegal.






    I like what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about it:

    "Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s probably not. It could be a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money."

    https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/multilevel-marketing

    So one thing to look for is whether the target market is the general public or simply additional distributors.  I understand there are blurred lines and I'm all for questioning everything; however I'm not for assuming guilt based on alternative business structures.




    Yes. And they are clashing with brazilian government due many MLM creators coming here to hide from them because they used MLM to hide illegal operations. And, well, we are talking about the land of corruption here - - so they found their safe haven.

    Slave labor is legal here too. Will you preach about it? Don't need to paste info here, you are lecturing no one but yourself.

    MLM are as real and legit as homeopathy or chiropractic treatments - - which is also legal and supported with federal funds here.


    So if the Ashes team relocates to Brazil we should be worried? ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    It is pretty shocking that the CEO and CFO have zero gaming experience and more people are not talking about this. Its basically a guy with money who hired some former SOE devs.

    The KS now makes a lot more sense with how its so light on MMO mechanics but full of eye candy and lofty ideals. Its all all about hype! positivity! change your life! Fix the genre! EXACTLY like how a MLM company operates.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329

    Jacobin said:

    It is pretty shocking that the CEO and CFO have zero gaming experience and more people are not talking about this. Its basically a guy with money who hired some former SOE devs.

    The KS now makes a lot more sense with how its so light on MMO mechanics but full of eye candy and lofty ideals. Its all all about hype! positivity! change your life! Fix the genre! EXACTLY like how a MLM company operates.


    Complain all you want, but so far it's working much better than previous KS campaigns -- which have come full of information on their MMO mechanics, but light on eye candy and visual progress.

    KS is simply about raising money in order to fund a project. If their MLM experience helps them do that, then more power to them.
    --------------------------------------------
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017




    Complain all you want, but so far it's working much better than previous KS campaigns -- which have come full of information on their MMO mechanics, but light on eye candy and visual progress.

    KS is simply about raising money in order to fund a project. If their MLM experience helps them do that, then more power to them.


    The cool-aid is strong with this one.

    You honestly don't care if the game is designed well as long as it looks good? Once they actually start talking about mechanics a lot of people are going to be upset because the initial scope wasn't clear.

    KS projects run by industry veterans who have actually delivered games in the past have not exactly had a smooth ride.

    If you want to fund an industry noob who got rich scamming people and a college grads first job go for it.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329

    Jacobin said:







    Complain all you want, but so far it's working much better than previous KS campaigns -- which have come full of information on their MMO mechanics, but light on eye candy and visual progress.

    KS is simply about raising money in order to fund a project. If their MLM experience helps them do that, then more power to them.



    The cool-aid is strong with this one.

    You honestly don't care if the game is designed well as long as it looks good? Once they actually start talking about mechanics a lot of people are going to be upset because the initial scope wasn't clear.

    KS projects run by industry veterans who have actually delivered games in the past have not exactly had a smooth ride.

    If you want to fund an industry noob who got rich scamming people and a college grads first job go for it.



    I'm not saying I'm satisfied with the amount of information about the game that has been released so far. I have a lot of questions that need to be answered before I let my credit card get billed for the KS package I've chosen...

    I'm just saying that the simple fact that the President of the company has a previous history in MLM doesn't automatically mean it's a scam.

    Games need money to be developed. MMORPGs more so than others. If their past business experiences help them get that funding, I don't see the big deal.

    It doesn't have anything to do with whether the game mechanics will be good or not. That is a completely separate topic that's unrelated to this MLM one. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,941
    No, the coolaid isn't strong. What a meat-headed gamer thing to say. They're talking smart business in their presentation. They've clearly laid out their plan and they show a business organization that isn't as well presented in most other projects.

    Business people running the business makes sense. I work for a small consulting business. We try hard to be successful. The owners are familiar with what the analysts, developers, and project managers do. They help create the billing framework for us, but they couldn't do the job. They rely on us to do ours and communicate with them. That's what the lead game developers will do for upper management.

    One of the core features of this project that seems very strong to me is their leadership has good business experience. That's so important. They understand how to hire and assemble an experienced team. That is the single most important task for an executive team building a business, right after the business plan itself.

    TL;DR - Business people do their job. Developers do theirs. Communication and planning are keys. These people exude competence in their kickstarter presentation.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

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  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,420
    Any marketing connections they have are only good: The more money they manage to swindle, the larger chance that they also manage to make a game.
     
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    How you can equate a guy with zero industry experience and a fresh college grad who are spouting off buzz word after buzz with few concrete details as 'smart' business and 'strong' leadership is a pretty amazing feat of mental gymnastics. You would think a consultant of all people would be able see past the marketing haze.

    A lot of dirt is coming out on Reddit.

    Edit: The fresh college grad CFO is married to the billionaire MLM creative director who is financing this.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Jacobin said:

    It is pretty shocking that the CEO and CFO have zero gaming experience and more people are not talking about this. Its basically a guy with money who hired some former SOE devs.

    The KS now makes a lot more sense with how its so light on MMO mechanics but full of eye candy and lofty ideals. Its all all about hype! positivity! change your life! Fix the genre! EXACTLY like how a MLM company operates.

    I have addressed this in other forums and I feel it is pertinent to do it here as well.

    Games that are developed in a vacuum, by nothing but gamers, tend to fail. Do a search of games that never made it release, and then look at the team behind the game. I bet you will find very few to no business majors in the mix. Vanguard is a good example here. Grandiose ideas (really good ones also) combined with financial idiocy, led to a game that could have been great but instead turned out mediocre and ended up being purchased by, you guess it a trip A studio. Too late ti turns out because even the might of SOE could not save that game.

    However, the same argument can not be used to the verse. Eve is a perfect example of a game that was designed and built as a business investment, and ended up being purchased by gamers and went on to see success. Simon and Schuster being the original developers of the game. Google it, I am done doing research for people. This is also one example.

    Most of your triple A game developers have people that are educated on contemporary business practices, and honestly, have your CEO and CFO being those types, is a good thing. However, we are also talking about games so if you have a business department you absolutely need the 'art' side of things as well. While Business types are good at bottom lines and numbers, they are not so good at accepting risk and imagination. There is a balance that is required and some give and take that needs to happen.

    All in all I think that the Ashes team is doing it properly. They have private funding that will allow the game to be made (their assertation, I have no opinion on whether it will/will not happen) and they have business smart people in the right places to ensure things stay sane and experienced game developers with a track record of success. Looking at history, as I suggest you do, they could have a very winning combination.

    I am speaking in very broad terms here, but I hope it clears up why you want non-gamers around to assist with your business because, at the end of the day, it IS a business and they usually want to make money.

    Hope this helps.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Torval said:

    No, the coolaid isn't strong. What a meat-headed gamer thing to say. They're talking smart business in their presentation. They've clearly laid out their plan and they show a business organization that isn't as well presented in most other projects.

    Business people running the business makes sense. I work for a small consulting business. We try hard to be successful. The owners are familiar with what the analysts, developers, and project managers do. They help create the billing framework for us, but they couldn't do the job. They rely on us to do ours and communicate with them. That's what the lead game developers will do for upper management.

    One of the core features of this project that seems very strong to me is their leadership has good business experience. That's so important. They understand how to hire and assemble an experienced team. That is the single most important task for an executive team building a business, right after the business plan itself.

    TL;DR - Business people do their job. Developers do theirs. Communication and planning are keys. These people exude competence in their kickstarter presentation.

    I am an Olead major...your words please me :) But seriously, well put and spot on.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • BestinnaBestinna Member UncommonPosts: 190
    lol AoC look so bad. can't wait for you all to beg for a refund.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017


    Hatefull said:



    Games that are developed in a vacuum, by nothing but gamers, tend to fail. Do a search of games that never made it release, and then look at the team behind the game. I bet you will find very few to no business majors in the mix. Vanguard is a good example here. Grandiose ideas (really good ones also) combined with financial idiocy, led to a game that could have been great but instead turned out mediocre and ended up being purchased by, you guess it a trip A studio. Too late ti turns out because even the might of SOE could not save that game.

    However, the same argument can not be used to the verse. Eve is a perfect example of a game that was designed and built as a business investment, and ended up being purchased by gamers and went on to see success. Simon and Schuster being the original developers of the game. Google it, I am done doing research for people. This is also one example.

    Most of your triple A game developers have people that are educated on contemporary business practices, and honestly, have your CEO and CFO being those types, is a good thing. However, we are also talking about games so if you have a business department you absolutely need the 'art' side of things as well. While Business types are good at bottom lines and numbers, they are not so good at accepting risk and imagination. There is a balance that is required and some give and take that needs to happen.

    All in all I think that the Ashes team is doing it properly. They have private funding that will allow the game to be made (their assertation, I have no opinion on whether it will/will not happen) and they have business smart people in the right places to ensure things stay sane and experienced game developers with a track record of success. Looking at history, as I suggest you do, they could have a very winning combination.

    I am speaking in very broad terms here, but I hope it clears up why you want non-gamers around to assist with your business because, at the end of the day, it IS a business and they usually want to make money.

    Hope this helps.




    TLDR You liked the video and art.

    Its not some brilliant business guy running this. He made his money in a very shady way and now thinks he can make an MMO. He hired his fresh grad liberal arts husband to be the CFO.

    You are getting sucked in by a marketing video which is this guy's specialty.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Jacobin said:

    How you can equate a guy with zero industry experience and a fresh college grad who are spouting off buzz word after buzz with few concrete details as 'smart' business and 'strong' leadership is a pretty amazing feat of mental gymnastics. You would think a consultant of all people would be able see past the marketing haze.

    A lot of dirt is coming out on Reddit.

    Edit: The fresh college grad CFO is married to the billionaire MLM creative director who is financing this.

    Becuase Reddit is heavily moderated and checked for facts. You can get as upset as you want, but history has shown that games that are developed by gamers with no oversight, fail.

    Fact: Business majors know business. One could argue that Brad MCquaid has a pretty good resume of game design and yet e could not get Vanguard to succeed. Had he had some oversight and been sober enough to take some advice from someone that could manage money and deadlines maybe we would be discussing how VG killed WoW. But we aren't, we are discussing how you fail to understand how business works alongside game development.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Bestinna said:

    lol AoC look so bad. can't wait for you all to beg for a refund.

    Compared to what?

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329
    edited May 2017
    Jacobin said:


    TLDR You liked the video and art.

    Its not some brilliant business guy running this. He made his money in a very shady way and now thinks he can make an MMO. He hired his fresh grad liberal arts husband to be the CFO.

    You are getting sucked in by a marketing video which is this guy's specialty.

    I think it's more than obvious now that we are being sucked in... by @Jacobin the troll. :tongue:


    --------------------------------------------
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    Huge promises and hype. People really want to believe that all its going to take is $750k and the game will launch in 1.5 years so we have this kind of thing every time someone makes huge promises on kickstarter with something that looks interesting and are willing to ignore everything for it to come to fruition.

    In 1.5 years we will hear new excuses on how development is hard and we should just give them more time while developers keep asking for more money. If it happened once or twice it wouldn't be so bad but with kickstarter mmorpg it happens time and time again.

    This time the guy behind it made his money convincing others that selling oils, minerals and juice for absurd prices will make them money in what can be best described as a pyramid scheme. For your sake I hope you are right but for someone that heard these sorts of promises over and over again I know how this story usually ends.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    You can keep discussing esoteric concepts while we in the actual world are finding out a lot of very concerning information about the people running this project.

    If you think a MLM guru and his new grad CFO husband are the best people to provide business oversight to a team with 2 programmers and a couple game designers who are promising to revolutionize the genre then go ahead and buy a lifetime package.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Jacobin said:




    Hatefull said:




    Games that are developed in a vacuum, by nothing but gamers, tend to fail. Do a search of games that never made it release, and then look at the team behind the game. I bet you will find very few to no business majors in the mix. Vanguard is a good example here. Grandiose ideas (really good ones also) combined with financial idiocy, led to a game that could have been great but instead turned out mediocre and ended up being purchased by, you guess it a trip A studio. Too late ti turns out because even the might of SOE could not save that game.

    However, the same argument can not be used to the verse. Eve is a perfect example of a game that was designed and built as a business investment, and ended up being purchased by gamers and went on to see success. Simon and Schuster being the original developers of the game. Google it, I am done doing research for people. This is also one example.

    Most of your triple A game developers have people that are educated on contemporary business practices, and honestly, have your CEO and CFO being those types, is a good thing. However, we are also talking about games so if you have a business department you absolutely need the 'art' side of things as well. While Business types are good at bottom lines and numbers, they are not so good at accepting risk and imagination. There is a balance that is required and some give and take that needs to happen.

    All in all I think that the Ashes team is doing it properly. They have private funding that will allow the game to be made (their assertation, I have no opinion on whether it will/will not happen) and they have business smart people in the right places to ensure things stay sane and experienced game developers with a track record of success. Looking at history, as I suggest you do, they could have a very winning combination.

    I am speaking in very broad terms here, but I hope it clears up why you want non-gamers around to assist with your business because, at the end of the day, it IS a business and they usually want to make money.

    Hope this helps.






    TLDR You liked the video and art.

    Its not some brilliant business guy running this. He made his money in a very shady way and now thinks he can make an MMO. He hired his fresh grad liberal arts husband to be the CFO.

    You are getting sucked in by a marketing video which is this guy's specialty.

    Yes, I do but that has nothing to do with what I said. I base my comments on facts, not "because I think so" or because I find something visually appealing. Essentially all you have said is: Nu-uh. I have also outlined examples to back up what I am saying, what have you presented besides, nuh-uh and barely veiled insults? Can you do better?

    And no, again I don't get "sucked in" to anything, facts buddy, facts is where it is at. Bring some to the discussion or be silent.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Shaigh said:

    Huge promises and hype. People really want to believe that all its going to take is $750k and the game will launch in 1.5 years so we have this kind of thing every time someone makes huge promises on kickstarter with something that looks interesting and are willing to ignore everything for it to come to fruition.

    In 1.5 years we will hear new excuses on how development is hard and we should just give them more time while developers keep asking for more money. If it happened once or twice it wouldn't be so bad but with kickstarter mmorpg it happens time and time again.

    This time the guy behind it made his money convincing others that selling oils, minerals and juice for absurd prices will make them money in what can be best described as a pyramid scheme. For your sake I hope you are right but for someone that heard these sorts of promises over and over again I know how this story usually ends.

    And you may end up being spot on, my only point is: You don't want art majors to handle your finances, and you don't want business majors to handle your game design. From what I have seen (on the ashes site) they have the creativity and the business model to handle what they want to do. In short, a good business model.

    Now will they follow through, will they be a genre changing development studio, hell I do not know that nor does anyone at this point. Humans are well human and any one of a million things can derail a project. Only time will tell. I am only discussing to the business model.

    As a side note, for anyone that cares, I do not back Kickstarter projects, as I see them all as bad investments, based on what I said above. While I believe they have a good model, anything can happen.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304

    Jacobin said:

    You can keep discussing esoteric concepts while we in the actual world are finding out a lot of very concerning information about the people running this project.

    If you think a MLM guru and his new grad CFO husband are the best people to provide business oversight to a team with 2 programmers and a couple game designers who are promising to revolutionize the genre then go ahead and buy a lifetime package.

    And you can keep failing to present any facts while those of us that live and work in the real world consider you a troll. Which is all you are doing at this time.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    Hatefull said:

    Yes, I do but that has nothing to do with what I said. I base my comments on facts, not "because I think so" or because I find something visually appealing. Essentially all you have said is: Nu-uh. I have also outlined examples to back up what I am saying, what have you presented besides, nuh-uh and barely veiled insults? Can you do better?

    And no, again I don't get "sucked in" to anything, facts buddy, facts is where it is at. Bring some to the discussion or be silent.

    FACT: The guy running this has zero industry or tech experience and made his money through a MLM scheme based on marketing hype

    FACT: He hired his fresh grad liberal arts husband to be the CFO

    FACT: Team has 2 programmers and a few game designers

    FACT: They are promising to redfine the MMO genre in under 2 years with 750k + whatever MLM sugar daddy wants to spend

    Marc Jacobs and J Todd Coleman had both run game companies and made games I liked so I backed their KS projects. With Ashes the guy has a shady and seems to want to run an MMO as a pet project.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Jacobin said:



    Hatefull said:


    Yes, I do but that has nothing to do with what I said. I base my comments on facts, not "because I think so" or because I find something visually appealing. Essentially all you have said is: Nu-uh. I have also outlined examples to back up what I am saying, what have you presented besides, nuh-uh and barely veiled insults? Can you do better?

    And no, again I don't get "sucked in" to anything, facts buddy, facts is where it is at. Bring some to the discussion or be silent.


    FACT: The guy running this has zero industry or tech experience and made his money through a MLM scheme based on marketing hype

    FACT: He hired his fresh grad liberal arts husband to be the CFO

    FACT: Team has 2 programmers and a few game designers

    FACT: They are promising to redfine the MMO genre in under 2 years with 750k + whatever MLM sugar daddy wants to spend

    Marc Jacobs and J Todd Coleman had both run game companies and made games I liked so I backed their KS projects. With Ashes the guy has a shady and seems to want to run an MMO as a pet project.



    On the first point, I think this was already addressed. You don't need to be in tech or anything else to run a company. You need to be a good business person. Jack Welch once wrote " if you're a leader and you're the smartest guy in the world - in the room, you have problems." 

    If you don't understand that quote then you don't know how to run a business. Effectively it means that a leader is there to find the smartest people in their discipline and have them use those skills to complete a task. If YOU are that "smartest guy" then you're super fucked because it means that YOU have to do everything. So if that's you, and you're the CEO, then your company is fucked. 

    On #2, do you know what a CFO does? I'm not entirely sure, but my guess is that it's more about managing people than money. It's also about accountability, so who else would you trust more than the person you put your dick in? 

    #3 I'm not sure what you're seeing as far as people are concerned. I see 11 linkedin profiles, all of which appear to be aligned with their skills and previous work experience. 

    #4 You're showing your ignorance thinking that they need the $750k to make the game. They've already released gameplay footage of the game. What did Marc Jacobs show in his? Oh yeah!!! A half-baked engine demo showing 500 models on pre-defined paths with zero textures on it. Cool bro. I totally see where you would be skeptical of this. 



    Crazkanuk

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  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited May 2017
    That is my point, industry veterans can't make a KS game - so why should we trust this guy? Because some random business guru made a quote once?

    A CFO is a highly experienced accountant, not a brand new liberal arts grad.

    You are putting your faith into a guy who made his money by convincing people to sell overpriced garbage to their friends and family.

    He is a sugar daddy with an MMO fetish. Good luck with that.
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