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Care Bears Can Kill (If PVP was Fair and Competitive)

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,991
    I just never found a good PVP game where I felt I could compete, so most of the time I just stood there and waited to die....Most of the griefers were greatly overpowered so I was just a couple hits and I was dead most of the time....
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited May 2017
    @AAAMEOW - I posted this link in my last post before that.

    It's link to notes I've created on how I would go about building my ideal MMO. 

    These notes are titled: Why Play an Open World PvP Sandbox For Crafting and PvE?

    The essential gist of is that the sandbox envisioned has a heavy focus on creating a realistic feeling world you can immerse yourself in. The focus on immersion is not limited to the PvP areas of the game. There are some pretty important features to make the world feel more immersive than any other game on the market appealing to people who will love the feeling of the rich authentic world, even if they don't love PvP aspects of them.

    In short, the game described in my notes is less a "PvP Game" and more a "Empire Building Simulator" with immersive ways to take an active hand in the primary content of empire building for both PvP and PvE focused players. 

    Another huge thing I haven't detailed too much in my posts is this game would have mechanics designed to incentivise ruling factions of regions to want casuals to live and play in their lands. Living in a nation in this game wouldn't be the kind of heavy handed experience that being a part of an EVE alliance would, nor would the game be designed in a way as to cause the majority of groups to dislike when neutrals come into their territory and use their lands.

    Land taxes and auction house fees* don't go to magical gold collection gnomes but the ruling parties of the region to use in the administration costs of running their kingdom. So they want that "filthy carebear casual!" living in their lands and paying their taxes. They have legit incentive to look after your interests.

    So if you are into authentic feeling worlds, sandbox content, and roleplay then there are things this game would offer you can't find in most (if any) other MMOs.

    *Auction houses would be localized in this game. Further incentivizing people to want foreign traders in their lands.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017
    @Eldurian - I totally agree.  PvP is necessary to make a game world realistic.  I don't want PvP just because I want to kill other people's characters.  I wouldn't even want to kill another person's character unless there was a reason and purpose behind it.  PvP would only be the main focus of such a game for those who chose to make it their main focus.  Killing and looting AI mobs would not be the only other thing you would have to focus on either.  Many other paths of progression would and should be possible.
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328
    @cantankerousmage 

    Here is my question, "How does PvP Improve Roleplay?"

    The main objection I see to Open-World-PvP is that people can and will kill you without any reason provided.

    So what I would like, is for you, is imagine I am looking at the webpage, you are trying to sell me on your game. Inspire me, sell me on this idea, and explain to me, why I would ever want to subjugate myself to open-PvP?
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328
    @Eldurian

    That sounds like a grand idea, I have seen other games do this, like DAoC, which had "Safe Zone" or more Home city areas, and then they had battle arena's, and they had open PvE/PvP Zones, and then they had shared dungeons.

    The main thing in my mind, is in Most MMO's, there is not an option to Opt-out of PvP if PvP is a central part of the game. While I am fine with people who enjoy those games, I openly admit, I play an MOBA from time to time, so it's not like, I am scared of PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.

    Often times, with an MMO is all about Open-World PvP, there are always issues, like, getting ganked wile crafting, or in the middle of a quest, or having to deal with people in a big guild with an ego problem, and I get that I am a Carebear for saying this, but that is not something I would find myself logging into an MMO to deal with, much less paying for that privilege. 

    How would you address these kinds of issues?
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017



    ZionBane said:



    @cantankerousmage 

    Here is my question, "How does PvP Improve Roleplay?"

    The main objection I see to Open-World-PvP is that people can and will kill you without any reason provided.

    So what I would like, is for you, is imagine I am looking at the webpage, you are trying to sell me on your game. Inspire me, sell me on this idea, and explain to me, why I would ever want to subjugate myself to open-PvP?







    EDIT #3:  My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so.  Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well.  There are more details and ideas in my other posts. And in the posts of others. - added to my original post a couple days ago.

    Do you walk down the street without a loaded gun, even though there is a possibility that any random stranger might knife you or shoot you?

    Do you drive your car on the freeway or down the street even though another car or semi-truck might collide you at any given moment?

    Do you opt for surgery even though medical error might potentially kill you?

    Do you hike on a forest trail in the mountains without a loaded gun even though you might come across a man-eating bear?

    I don't know if you do any of these things, but a lot of people do.  Living in the real world is not safe.  Why do we want to play children's games that let us pretend us as if life can be safe?

    Also, there are areas or nations on earth to which you might not want to travel.  Even soldiers often don't want to go to those areas, but sometimes they get ordered to and deployed.

    There are basically places on earth with different general moral alignments (as in D&D) and political/social/religious/cultural structures.  Some places are more or less safe than others.  Some places or more or less free than others.  Some places are more lawful, some places are more chaotic.

    Why can't we make a game world to mimic these conditions we find in real life?

  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017





    ZionBane said:





    @Eldurian

    That sounds like a grand idea, I have seen other games do this, like DAoC, which had "Safe Zone" or more Home city areas, and then they had battle arena's, and they had open PvE/PvP Zones, and then they had shared dungeons.

    The main thing in my mind, is in Most MMO's, there is not an option to Opt-out of PvP if PvP is a central part of the game. While I am fine with people who enjoy those games, I openly admit, I play an MOBA from time to time, so it's not like, I am scared of PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.

    Often times, with an MMO is all about Open-World PvP, there are always issues, like, getting ganked wile crafting, or in the middle of a quest, or having to deal with people in a big guild with an ego problem, and I get that I am a Carebear for saying this, but that is not something I would find myself logging into an MMO to deal with, much less paying for that privilege. 

    How would you address these kinds of issues?










    Well, for one thing, wandering out into the wilderness by yourself was generally not a good idea in the past.  It's not even really a good idea now, even though there are less wild animals than there used to be.  Still, sometimes you may find yourself needing or wanting a large knife, spear, or loaded gun if you're out in the wilderness by yourself or even with some other people.  You might even come across some wandering psychopath in the wilderness (or on a city street for that matter).  Maybe not that likely, but not as if it isn't possible.

    I wouldn't have quest givers, though maybe there are some player-characters or npcs that occasionally ask you to do things for them, but it wouldn't be part of any particular general questline/closed narrative in the game. 

    And guilds are only for tradesmen/craftsmen.  Though there may be a thieves guild or an assassins guild in a large city.  Your loyalty would be to your family, community/realm, and possibly church (or temple/shaman/witch doctor/coven/cult).

    Community/realms can take many different forms in the game.  Villages, towns, cities, nomadic encampments, baronies, kingdoms, empires are a few examples.  Maybe even a bandit gang or a pirate crew.  Though you could also try to survive on your own as a hermit or something.  Surviving on your own without belonging to any particular faction would be the ultimate challenge.
    Post edited by cantankerousmage on
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328






    ZionBane said:




    @cantankerousmage 

    Here is my question, "How does PvP Improve Roleplay?"

    The main objection I see to Open-World-PvP is that people can and will kill you without any reason provided.

    So what I would like, is for you, is imagine I am looking at the webpage, you are trying to sell me on your game. Inspire me, sell me on this idea, and explain to me, why I would ever want to subjugate myself to open-PvP?









    EDIT #3:  My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so.  Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well.  There are more details and ideas in my other posts. And in the posts of others. - added to my original post a couple days ago.

    Do you walk down the street without a loaded gun, even though there is a possibility that any random stranger might knife you or shoot you?

    Do you drive your car on the freeway or down the street even though another car or semi-truck might collide you at any given moment?

    Do you opt for surgery even though medical error might potentially kill you?

    Do you hike on a forest trail in the mountains without a loaded gun even though you might come across a man-eating bear?

    I don't know if you do any of these things, but a lot of people do.  Living in the real world is not safe.  Why do we want to play children's games that let us pretend us as if life can be safe?

    Also, there are areas or nations on earth to which you might not want to travel.  Even soldiers often don't want to go to those areas, but sometimes they get ordered to and deployed.

    There are basically places on earth with different general moral alignments (as in D&D) and political/social/religious/cultural structures.  Some places are more or less safe than others.  Some places or more or less free than others.  Some places are more lawful, some places are more chaotic.

    Why can't we make a game world to mimic these conditions we find in real life?





    "My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so. "

    You have said this many times, but you have not explained why you believe this to be true. You say you believe it.. Ok.. now tell me why you believe this.. sell me why this you feel this to be true.

    As for everything else you said.. I don't have a choice, I was born.. and thus deal with the world I was born into. Which is a very different situation then willingly putting myself into this kind of world.

    Ask yourself.. Would You... play this game cal "Life on Earth" if there were other, lets say.. safer planets to play upon, like 'Life on Xandarian"  
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017





    ZionBane said:


























    ZionBane said:









    @cantankerousmage 

    Here is my question, "How does PvP Improve Roleplay?"

    The main objection I see to Open-World-PvP is that people can and will kill you without any reason provided.

    So what I would like, is for you, is imagine I am looking at the webpage, you are trying to sell me on your game. Inspire me, sell me on this idea, and explain to me, why I would ever want to subjugate myself to open-PvP?



















    EDIT #3:  My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so.  Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well.  There are more details and ideas in my other posts. And in the posts of others. - added to my original post a couple days ago.

    Do you walk down the street without a loaded gun, even though there is a possibility that any random stranger might knife you or shoot you?

    Do you drive your car on the freeway or down the street even though another car or semi-truck might collide you at any given moment?

    Do you opt for surgery even though medical error might potentially kill you?

    Do you hike on a forest trail in the mountains without a loaded gun even though you might come across a man-eating bear?

    I don't know if you do any of these things, but a lot of people do.  Living in the real world is not safe.  Why do we want to play children's games that let us pretend us as if life can be safe?

    Also, there are areas or nations on earth to which you might not want to travel.  Even soldiers often don't want to go to those areas, but sometimes they get ordered to and deployed.

    There are basically places on earth with different general moral alignments (as in D&D) and political/social/religious/cultural structures.  Some places are more or less safe than others.  Some places or more or less free than others.  Some places are more lawful, some places are more chaotic.

    Why can't we make a game world to mimic these conditions we find in real life?















    "My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so. "

    You have said this many times, but you have not explained why you believe this to be true. You say you believe it.. Ok.. now tell me why you believe this.. sell me why this you feel this to be true.

    As for everything else you said.. I don't have a choice, I was born.. and thus deal with the world I was born into. Which is a very different situation then willingly putting myself into this kind of world.

    Ask yourself.. Would You... play this game cal "Life on Earth" if there were other, lets say.. safer planets to play upon, like 'Life on Xandarian"  










    Yes, I would continue to play "Life on Earth".  I have a purpose and a reason to be here.  I won't shrink from my responsibility. 

    Being safer and more secure usually means being less free.  The only way to be 100% safe is to be kept in a rubber room or a comfortable, gilded cage.*   And that's what most mmorpgs are.  Cages.  Some of the cages are larger and more beautiful than others, with more toys, bells, and whistles in the cage, but they are still cages.

    *(Underground in case of tornadoes or hurricanes depending on where you live.  Far away from possibly active volcanoes.  And probably have all your food mashed or liquefied so you don't choke.  Being bathed by hand instead of going into the shower or bathtub will help as well.  As long as the caretakers aren't bad people and wear hazmat suits.  Hopefully they never accidentally let a bee inside in case you are allergic.  As for earthquakes and comet or meteor strikes, well, I don't know.  Cross your fingers.)
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328
    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017





    ZionBane said:





    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?










    PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games.  All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level.  And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason.  Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again.  Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does.  So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all.  Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.

    Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online.  Check it out if you like.

    Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing.  What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other.  My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle.  I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world.  Cooperation would be just as important as competition.  If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about.  But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.

    EDIT:  If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once.  Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse?  Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too?  Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out.  And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard.  Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law.  If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.
    Post edited by cantankerousmage on
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328








    ZionBane said:






    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?












    PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games.  All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level.  And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason.  Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again.  Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does.  So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all.  Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.

    Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online.  Check it out if you like.

    Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing.  What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other.  My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle.  I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world.  Cooperation would be just as important as competition.  If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about.  But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.

    EDIT:  If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once.  Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse?  Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too?  Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out.  And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard.  Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law.  If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.




    You said:

    "What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."

    My retort: I have never seen this.

    Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 237

    There is only ONE correct answer. There is NO FAIR WAY to implement PVP into an MMO. Someone will always have an advantage. Plus there is NEVER a "square-off" start. It ALWAYS starts with a "gank", Then the reaction. MMORPGs have NO NEED for PVP, also considering that it only comprises around 8% of the population, PVP only pushes away a far GREATER number of "care bears" that HATE IT!! So if devs want to include a PVP server, have at it. But STOP... FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!! ...trying to make a game to please everyone. ...did you hear that Pantheon????

  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited May 2017


    ZionBane said:
















    ZionBane said:








    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?
















    PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games.  All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level.  And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason.  Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again.  Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does.  So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all.  Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.

    Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online.  Check it out if you like.

    Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing.  What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other.  My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle.  I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world.  Cooperation would be just as important as competition.  If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about.  But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.

    EDIT:  If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once.  Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse?  Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too?  Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out.  And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard.  Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law.  If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.








    You said:

    "What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."

    My retort: I have never seen this.

    Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.




    There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it.  Neither have I.  But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.

    All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.

    I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now.  I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.

    Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.


  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992

    bentrim said:

    There is only ONE correct answer. There is NO FAIR WAY to implement PVP into an MMO. Someone will always have an advantage. Plus there is NEVER a "square-off" start. It ALWAYS starts with a "gank", Then the reaction. MMORPGs have NO NEED for PVP, also considering that it only comprises around 8% of the population, PVP only pushes away a far GREATER number of "care bears" that HATE IT!! So if devs want to include a PVP server, have at it. But STOP... FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!! ...trying to make a game to please everyone. ...did you hear that Pantheon????


    There is no fair way to implement pvp into an mmorpg with vertical level and gear progression.
  • ZionBaneZionBane Member UncommonPosts: 328





    ZionBane said:




















    ZionBane said:









    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?


















    PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games.  All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level.  And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason.  Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again.  Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does.  So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all.  Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.

    Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online.  Check it out if you like.

    Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing.  What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other.  My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle.  I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world.  Cooperation would be just as important as competition.  If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about.  But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.

    EDIT:  If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once.  Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse?  Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too?  Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out.  And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard.  Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law.  If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.










    You said:

    "What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."

    My retort: I have never seen this.

    Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.






    There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it.  Neither have I.  But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.

    All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.

    I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now.  I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.

    Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.




    I'l agree with the idea that there is always a new way to look at things and make things happen, but to be very blunt, I am highly skeptical.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992

    ZionBane said:









    ZionBane said:
























    ZionBane said:










    You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.

    I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2,  I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.

    However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.

    That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..

    That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded. 

    So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside,  say Team  Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.

    Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?




















    PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games.  All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level.  And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason.  Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again.  Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does.  So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all.  Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.

    Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online.  Check it out if you like.

    Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing.  What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other.  My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle.  I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world.  Cooperation would be just as important as competition.  If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about.  But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.

    EDIT:  If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once.  Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse?  Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too?  Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out.  And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard.  Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law.  If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.












    You said:

    "What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."

    My retort: I have never seen this.

    Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.








    There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it.  Neither have I.  But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.

    All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.

    I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now.  I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.

    Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.






    I'l agree with the idea that there is always a new way to look at things and make things happen, but to be very blunt, I am highly skeptical.

    I have no problem with that.  It won't be easy, but, in my opinion, if we ever want to play rpgs online that aren't basically soldier/mercenary simulators designed to be easy enough for children and teenagers, then we need to start thinking about making them more realistic and more reflective of how the real world works.  Otherwise, I quit. 
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