You know how unpopular games like UO, Mortal online, darkfall are?
Developers don't make much mmorpg like that.
Now a mmorpg where people can freely gank people but have reprocusion or penalty is even more unpopular in my opinion. Interesting idea but I don't know if any developer will make a pvp focused game like that.
I didn't say they could freely gank people. I wouldn't have the ability to become a god-like character in the game. Basically, you would have a chance of getting killed in any battle you started. Backstabbing from the shadows or sniping with an arrow from the distance might be some of the few ways you could possibly assassinate someone without the possibility of getting killed yourself. Even ganging up on someone doesn't make you completely safe. Only six people can realistically attack someone at the same time. But for that, they'd have to be very-skilled fighters who can coordinate well together. That means basically all their skill points would have to be put into combat, so they wouldn't be good at anything else. And they would have to have fought together for awhile. Even then, it's possible to take one down at least before they kill you.
I don't like stat, level, or gear progression. Throw it away. It's stupid. A human can train certain skills and actions by training or repetition, but there are definite limits. And if you train one thing, that means you usually don't have time to train another. Why body-builders normally aren't rocket scientists.
Also, if you kill someone that belongs to a certain kingdom, you're basically declaring war on their entire kingdom. Might be in your interest if you wanted to start a war between your kingdom and theirs. Maybe not always the best idea if you're just a gang of bandits.
I think there is an interesting paradox in the PvP community as a whole. Let's call it "The Trammel Paradox."
The Trammel Paradox is this:
Many PvPers: "UO was ruined when they split it into a PvP and a PvE server."
Same PvPers: "If people can't tolerate consistent abuse I don't want them in my PvP game! We can't let the carebears dumb this game down!"
In simple the idea of the Trammel Paradox is the idea that you want everyone who plays the game to be subjected to whatever forms of abuse you wish to inflict on them, and that you despise carebears. But on the same hand you feel something was lost from UO when the community was separated.
In 2017 there are many MMOs. Most of them are catered primarily to PvEers. So if you believe that Trammel was a mistake and there shouldn't be separation it is logically inconsistent to despise carebears and want them driven from your games. They will simply say "**** this ****!" and return to carebear games continuing the divide between between PvErs and PvPers personified by the Trammel split.
So which is it:
A. Did the Trammel split not harm the PvP community and was it in-fact a good move?
B. Did we lose something when we lost the carebears/crafters/PvErs?
I am a firm believer in B. If you also believe in B, then this a situation we need solutions to. We need to find ways to curb the behaviors that drive them away and allow them to comfortably exist in our community, and we need to give actual draws to our games most PvE games can't offer.
I think there is an interesting paradox in the PvP community as a whole. Let's call it "The Trammel Paradox."
The Trammel Paradox is this:
Many PvPers: "UO was ruined when they split it into a PvP and a PvE server."
Same PvPers: "If people can't tolerate consistent abuse I don't want them in my PvP game! We can't let the carebears dumb this game down!"
In simple the idea of the Trammel Paradox is the idea that you want everyone who plays the game to be subjected to whatever forms of abuse you wish to inflict on them, and that you despise carebears. But on the same hand you feel something was lost from UO when the community was separated.
In 2017 there are many MMOs. Most of them are catered primarily to PvEers. So if you believe that Trammel was a mistake and there shouldn't be separation it is logically inconsistent to despise carebears and want them driven from your games. They will simply say "**** this ****!" and return to carebear games continuing the divide between between PvErs and PvPers personified by the Trammel split.
So which is it:
A. Did the Trammel split not harm the PvP community and was it in-fact a good move?
B. Did we lose something when we lost the carebears/crafters/PvErs?
I am a firm believer in B. If you also believe in B, then this a situation we need solutions to. We need to find ways to curb the behaviors that drive them away and allow them to comfortably exist in our community, and we need to give actual draws to our games most PvE games can't offer.
I can agree with 'B'. However, the 'Trammel Paradox" was more than what you're making it out to be. It wasn't just about PvPers / PKers, it fundamentally changed the entire game, 3 years after release. It was Star Wars NGE. Some of the key features of the game were nullified in one fell swoop. It didn't hurt PvP, at all, in fact it made Chaos and Order fights as well as guild wars a hell of a lot more fun. What it changed was how the world felt to both carebears AND avid PKers.
It wasn't as much as "If people can't tolerate consistent abuse I don't want them in my PvP game!" as it was "don't change the game, change games". However, I have to admit that a solution for both types of players living in one free world sounds appealing, although seemingly impossible.
There just games. It's ok if you dont win every time...
In Lineage 2, I was called a carebear nonstop (because I wouldn't accept a challenge of 1vs100). But I was also called a raid boss, osama bin laden, best pvper, and many other hardcore crap I didn't care for.
Carebear was a term used for people who would not be willing to defend themselves or their friends, when they actually had the power to do so. Then it became a term for people who didn't want to pvp at all. Not even sure it's a term used these days (since ever game is so god damn protective).
Most people who used this term were trolls and griefers trying to get an emotional rise out of another player (who was always at an unfair disadvantage).
This isn't directed toward you personally, but I added this to my original post:
EDIT: Unless it is in self-defense, in the line of duty for a police officer (except in cases where the perpetrator is unarmed or not fighting back), or occurs during legal warfare, killing people is generally considered a crime. I do believe games should reflect this principle. But, "oh, come on, it's just a game", someone may say? That may very well be, but if that's a person's attitude, he or she (usually he) shouldn't expect me or most other reasonable people to want to participate in the psychotic, predatory fantasies of the gankers.
I am tired of being coddled in virtual worlds, that's why I want to make pvp actually work in a way that's fun for the majority of people.
Are you saying that women are less likly to be a ganker? I am confused as to why you would think that.
He is saying most gankers and griefers are male which is a pretty true statement. Just doing a quick inventory of people who I know who fit that description who's gender I can positively identify (Having heard their voice in videos or on TS) about 90% are male. In fact I can only think of two females I've known who fit the description and one of them was part of a husband/wife team.
Most of the females I can think of that have played villainous roles in video games tend toward the use of lies, propaganda, and manipulating others to do their bidding. Griefers / gankers are generally tools for such people to use. They inhabit the same guilds but play very different roles. Infact even one of the two females I listed as a ganker was more of a manipulator than a soldier. She just did both.
Well, that's the point of most MMORPGs as they are currently made. But even in pencil-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons (first released in 1974), upon which most of these games are based, the whole point was actually being able to experience what it was like to live to in a fantasy world (in D&D's case, similar to that of Tolkien's novels). The player role-played by talking and acting how his or her character would talk or act according to said character's history and personality. Most importantly, the character could effect and even change the game world based on his or her words or deeds. All the stats, equipment, adventures, dungeons and campaigns were just a means to an end, not the end in and of themselves.
Oh I dunno about that... when my Paladin got his Holy Avenger Sword it was kind of a big deal. Even in pen and paper I loved collecting stuff. I loved seeing my character develop...
But would is it really a big deal if all you can ever do with your paladin in a game world is follow orders (do quests), raid dungeons, or kill another player-character? If you never need to defend your kingdom against another kingdom or monster/undead horde? If you never have a chance of becoming a lord with his own castle or leading an army in battle? If your chosen deity never interrupts your day and commands you to go on a specific quest to defeat evil somewhere in some far off realm or plane?
I think there is an interesting paradox in the PvP community as a whole. Let's call it "The Trammel Paradox."
The Trammel Paradox is this:
Many PvPers: "UO was ruined when they split it into a PvP and a PvE server."
Same PvPers: "If people can't tolerate consistent abuse I don't want them in my PvP game! We can't let the carebears dumb this game down!"
In simple the idea of the Trammel Paradox is the idea that you want everyone who plays the game to be subjected to whatever forms of abuse you wish to inflict on them, and that you despise carebears. But on the same hand you feel something was lost from UO when the community was separated.
In 2017 there are many MMOs. Most of them are catered primarily to PvEers. So if you believe that Trammel was a mistake and there shouldn't be separation it is logically inconsistent to despise carebears and want them driven from your games. They will simply say "**** this ****!" and return to carebear games continuing the divide between between PvErs and PvPers personified by the Trammel split.
So which is it:
A. Did the Trammel split not harm the PvP community and was it in-fact a good move?
B. Did we lose something when we lost the carebears/crafters/PvErs?
I am a firm believer in B. If you also believe in B, then this a situation we need solutions to. We need to find ways to curb the behaviors that drive them away and allow them to comfortably exist in our community, and we need to give actual draws to our games most PvE games can't offer.
Finding ways to draw people into PvP games and creating a true role-playing game without the need for incredibly advanced AI or VR is what I am after.
In a PVP game where one can kill other but other can't kill back then it failed as a PVP game .
That's a true statement in general.
Btw, I edited my original post again. This is what I added:
EDIT #2: My definition of Ganker - Those who aren't really looking for a challenge in PvP and just want to prey on weaklings and noobs (or someone who has zero chance of defeating them in any case - and usually the person won't have much opportunity for revenge in the near future). Or people that will repeatedly kill the same player-character for no reason other than that they're there. I think killing should have a purpose beyond the pure enjoyment of killing. But maybe that's just me.
My definition of Unfair in MMORPG PvP:
Losing to someone just because they've played longer, played more hours, or paid more money and have thus become far more powerful than I can hope to be without playing for months or years or paying an equal amount of money. I can compete with people's wallets all day long in the real world if I like. If I haven't played a sport as long as someone else, I probably won't be placed in the same league as them. Unless I am sort of genius or prodigy.
Now if someone outsmarts me or outnumbers me*, fine, that can happen. Wandering out in the wilderness alone is not the greatest idea most of the time.
*Or maneuvers better or plans better, whatever. Basically I want things like wits and skill, tactics and teamwork to play a larger part in PvP than anything else.
Putting in more work deserves payoffs but I think what payoffs is something that needs to be more carefully considered.
Things I am ok with:
1. Economically stronger players and nations being able to produce better gear more easily. 2. Diplomatically savvy nations having more allies / less enemies. 3. Groups that entrench themselves in an area and put resources and time into fortifications being exceptionally hard to push out. 4. Ending up in an unwinnable fight because you made bad tactical decisions.
Things I am not ok with:
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die. 2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means. 3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
Putting in more work deserves payoffs but I think what payoffs is something that needs to be more carefully considered.
Things I am ok with:
1. Economically stronger players and nations being able to produce better gear more easily. 2. Diplomatically savvy nations having more allies / less enemies. 3. Groups that entrench themselves in an area and put resources and time into fortifications being exceptionally hard to push out. 4. Ending up in an unwinnable fight because you made bad tactical decisions.
Things I am not ok with:
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die. 2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means. 3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
Absolutely.
I added this to my Edit #2:
There are advantages one might gain by spending more time with any particular activity, just like in the real world, but they shouldn't make a person unbeatable. I should have a chance of moving up from the Minor Leagues to the Major Leagues rapidly if I have the talent and the skill. Baseball players aren't allowed to use corked bats in games, and they certainly wouldn't be able to use a magical bat that always hit a home run every time they swung at a pitch.
And this:
EDIT #3: My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality. I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so. Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well. There are more details and ideas in my other posts. And in the posts of others.
If you're trying to add open PvPer to a "World of Everclone" game you might as well toss money somewhere else.
___________
Safezone mechanics, banking, auction houses, flagging, and all those other mechanics. Do more to help PvPers than they do to help PvEers.
open world PvPer MMOs that I've enjoyed (Haven and Hearth, WurmOnline PvPer/beta servers, and screeps). Are all set up to be very 'hardcore' complete with severe skill loss, map removals, no safe banking and similar. The thing is that you don't find random PvPers since the risks are just too high for them (they don't don't have safe zones, they don't have banks, and best of all you can't really log off to protect yourself/stuff).
When a world is properly set up a being a random PvPer just doesn't work. You'll need some combination of a social network to keep yourself supplied, to safely store items, to even find targets, and protect you from bigger fish.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
If you're trying to add open PvPer to a "World of Everclone" game you might as well toss money somewhere else.
___________
Safezone mechanics, banking, auction houses, flagging, and all those other mechanics. Do more to help PvPers than they do to help PvEers.
open world PvPer MMOs that I've enjoyed (Haven and Hearth, WurmOnline PvPer/beta servers, and screeps). Are all set up to be very 'hardcore' complete with severe skill loss, map removals, no safe banking and similar. The thing is that you don't find random PvPers since the risks are just too high for them (they don't don't have safe zones, they don't have banks, and best of all you can't really log off to protect yourself/stuff).
When a world is properly set up a being a random PvPer just doesn't work. You'll need some combination of a social network to keep yourself supplied, to safely store items, to even find targets, and protect you from bigger fish.
Just like random murder for sport isn't all that common in the real world. Especially not in the past when the members of different communities depended on each other for survival.
But if you do have access to a bank in any given town or city, it should not be immune from attempted (and sometimes successful) robbery.
I don't like default maps either. A character should need skill in cartography to make a map, at least some rudimentary skills in drawing and some intelligence and/or wisdom in order to map out a dungeon, or have enough coin to buy a map somewhere or from someone. There's no reason a map needs to be 100% reliable either. There can be incomplete maps or fake maps. Even fake maps made on purpose by players or npcs. The only way one really knows if a map is accurate or not is after they he or she tries to use it. Or a player shows the map to another player who has traveled the region before. If they remember correctly or know or can see it corresponds to a good map they have in their possession.
And I definitely want dying to carry a heavy penalty.
There should be no zone, area, town, or city or whatever that is 100% safe. Players can work to make it safer, but there is no such thing as 100% safety anywhere in the real world.
Well, that's the point of most MMORPGs as they are currently made. But even in pencil-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons (first released in 1974), upon which most of these games are based, the whole point was actually being able to experience what it was like to live to in a fantasy world (in D&D's case, similar to that of Tolkien's novels). The player role-played by talking and acting how his or her character would talk or act according to said character's history and personality. Most importantly, the character could effect and even change the game world based on his or her words or deeds. All the stats, equipment, adventures, dungeons and campaigns were just a means to an end, not the end in and of themselves.
Oh I dunno about that... when my Paladin got his Holy Avenger Sword it was kind of a big deal. Even in pen and paper I loved collecting stuff. I loved seeing my character develop...
But would is it really a big deal if all you can ever do with your paladin in a game world is follow orders (do quests), raid dungeons, or kill another player-character? If you never need to defend your kingdom against another kingdom or monster/undead horde? If you never have a chance of becoming a lord with his own castle or leading an army in battle? If your chosen deity never interrupts your day and commands you to go on a specific quest to defeat evil somewhere in some far off realm or plane?
But I can do some of that in today's PvP games. I'll use Darkfall as an example even though I haven't played in years. In DF we grouped together, formed an alliance, built up towns and cities, negotiated with other "nations", declared war, laid siege to enemy strongholds, lost a city that we pourred our hearts and souls into, rallied the troops, negotiated with new allies and took our home back. In that game, not only did my character develop but so did our city. The more you developed it, the stronger it got.
Another great example would be Shadowbane. You could do much of what I described above but one difference was that the GMs also got involved. They would spawn massive PvE events and attack our cities. One time I actually RPed my way to join this massive Demon as his lieutenant and swore allegiance to him during the fight and he gave me special blessings "buffs" and sent his troops behind me. Again, your character would need to develop their skills. This is what allows the emergence of heroes and legendary enemies. This is what gives us a goal to meet and overcome the challenges posed by other players.
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Well, that's the point of most MMORPGs as they are currently made. But even in pencil-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons (first released in 1974), upon which most of these games are based, the whole point was actually being able to experience what it was like to live to in a fantasy world (in D&D's case, similar to that of Tolkien's novels). The player role-played by talking and acting how his or her character would talk or act according to said character's history and personality. Most importantly, the character could effect and even change the game world based on his or her words or deeds. All the stats, equipment, adventures, dungeons and campaigns were just a means to an end, not the end in and of themselves.
Oh I dunno about that... when my Paladin got his Holy Avenger Sword it was kind of a big deal. Even in pen and paper I loved collecting stuff. I loved seeing my character develop...
But would is it really a big deal if all you can ever do with your paladin in a game world is follow orders (do quests), raid dungeons, or kill another player-character? If you never need to defend your kingdom against another kingdom or monster/undead horde? If you never have a chance of becoming a lord with his own castle or leading an army in battle? If your chosen deity never interrupts your day and commands you to go on a specific quest to defeat evil somewhere in some far off realm or plane?
But I can do some of that in today's PvP games. I'll use Darkfall as an example even though I haven't played in years. In DF we grouped together, formed an alliance, built up towns and cities, negotiated with other "nations", declared war, laid siege to enemy strongholds, lost a city that we pourred our hearts and souls into, rallied the troops, negotiated with new allies and took our home back. In that game, not only did my character develop but so did our city. The more you developed it, the stronger it got.
Another great example would be Shadowbane. You could do much of what I described above but one difference was that the GMs also got involved. They would spawn massive PvE events and attack our cities. One time I actually RPed my way to join this massive Demon as his lieutenant and swore allegiance to him during the fight and he gave me special blessings "buffs" and sent his troops behind me. Again, your character would need to develop their skills. This is what allows the emergence of heroes and legendary enemies. This is what gives us a goal to meet and overcome the challenges posed by other players.
That's cool that such things have been possible in games you've played. But I still don't want the ability to become a god. Or for other players to become gods. Gods don't usually walk the earth and go around killing random people for fun. If gods decide to end someone's life, they usually have a purpose and reason behind it.
@ZionBane - FREEDOM! More fun, more challenge, opportunities for true role-playing, the ability to effect and change the world with words and deeds. No need to repeat the same actions over and over while waiting for new content to be released. The players will create most of the game's content themselves. You will most likely never play the same game twice.
If he doesn't PvP then he has all the same freedom he would have if he participated in in a pve game. Freedom to PvP would not interest him, role playing through PvP would not interest him, changing the world through PvP would not interest him.
Your answer was basically you can PvP. That doesn't interest that person.
What is the draw to a person not interested in PvP?
If your going to draw the pve crowd your going to have to explain how your game positively impact pve.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If he doesn't PvP then he has all the same freedom he would have if he participated in in a pve game. Freedom to PvP would not interest him, role playing through PvP would not interest him, changing the world through PvP would not interest him.
Your answer was basically you can PvP. That doesn't interest that person.
What is the draw to a person not interested in PvP?
No, that is not what I said at all.
You could effect and change the world without having to kill people in a well-made PvP world. There are things like diplomacy, making trade deals, forming alliances, breaking alliances, remaining neutral during a time of war between two other kingdoms or choosing to side with one against another. Gathering enough resources, growing enough food, crafting enough essential items in order for your community to prosper or failing to do so. Fixing a damaged wall before invaders arrive. All kinds of things. So many, many possibilities. And just because there wouldn't be quest givers, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be adventures or dungeons or the ability to find some magical item (though magic should be rare, as in most people might never encounter it or find it). There aren't many wizards or magical items in the Lord of the Rings, which all these medieval fantasy games are based on.
If you read the rest of this thread, you might get some other ideas. Anyway, it doesn't matter right now. The important thing would be to make the game first. Many times, people don't know whether or not they would like something until they try it.
Oh, and you already have to the freedom to choose to PvP in most mmorpgs. It's just that PvP in most mmorpgs is horribly implemented.
EDIT: If you're really smart, wise, and/or careful, you may never or rarely ever have to engage in battle. Fighting is usually a last resort for most people. Or they have some important goal in mind that they believe is worth fighting and even dying for.
Also, resurrection should not be commonplace. The raising of someone from the dead is a pretty miraculous event.
Everything you described except remaining neutral between to warring kingdoms can be done in a pve game and many have been done. Horizons now istaria when the AI used to attack cities you had to do all that stuff. Fix walls, reinforce walls, stockpile supplies.
Diplomacy and trade deals can also be done and have been done through guilds and even individual Crafters in many games, without the need for an actual diplomatic UI.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Everything you described except remaining neutral between to warring kingdoms can be done in a pve game and many have been done. Horizons now istaria when the AI used to attack cities you had to do all that stuff. Fix walls, reinforce walls, stockpile supplies.
Diplomacy and trade deals can also be done and have been done through guilds and even individual Crafters in many games.
Sure, it's possible to do certain things with AI mobs and scripted events, but it's not the same. To me, playing card games, chess, Monopoly, Life, Risk, Axis & Allies, or Samurai Swords (aka Shogun) is always more fun to play with people than to play against the computer. Even in pencil-and-paper rpgs, there is a human element controlling the monsters and npcs. They are called the Dungeon or Game Master.
As I've said before in another thread, I'm fairly confident that humans will always make more intelligent, challenging, interesting, creative, and imaginative opponents than AI. Also, there's not so much need to constantly create new content if the players themselves are creating the majority of the content for each other.
But you don't have to agree or ever play such a game. No one will force you to play a game you don't want to play. I hope.
I don't mean to sound like a dick. I do mean to drive home that point though that you are going to have to expand on that if you want to get the pve people in whatever game that has pvp.
Many games have also instituted player made content, usually in ways that involve dungeon making, or making quests. Heck even without the formal ability I've seen people just shout out, "X reward for first person that accomplishes this feat..."
All forms of player made content.
Your right that humans are often more interesting, also more irritating.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't mean to sound like a dick. I do mean to drive home that point though that you are going to have to expand on that if you want to get the pve people in whatever game that has pvp.
Many games have also instituted player made content, usually in ways that involve dungeon making, or making quests. Heck even without the formal ability I've seen people just shout out, "X reward for first person that accomplishes this feat..."
All forms of player made content.
Your right that humans are often more interesting, also more irritating.
Have you read all of my posts in this thread?
And, yes, I agree that people can be irritating at times, but we often have to take the good with the bad in life. Just the way it goes.
But there are some people that simply never want to compete with another human being for anything. Obviously, a game that involves PvP would not be for such people. Cooperation is better than competition, but the ability to choose to cooperate is not quite so meaningful if we can't also choose to compete.
EDIT: Human history has been an endless cycle of moments and situations where people have chosen to either cooperate or compete with each other. And the cycle continues to the present day, even up until this very minute. Do I try to help someone, hurt them, or ignore them? Do I build people up, tear them down, or leave them alone? Do I speak to someone kindly, harshly, or with indifference? Do I love a person, hate a person, or not care either way about a person? All these options we have in life, our ability to weigh the potential consequences or rewards of our choices, and our potential decisions at any given time are what make life interesting and meaningful. Our choices may result in benefits and/or drawbacks, advantages and/or disadvantages, positives and/or negatives. We have the ability to effect or change some person or some part of the world every day, every hour, every moment.
Life wouldn't be worth living if everything I did everyday was scripted. Nor do I believe that playing a game where everything is scripted is worth my time.
I've skimmed through the whole thread and kept tabs on it as I was participating earlier as well. I've read many of your posts. No I didn't read every single post. Perhaps I missed something.
There are also other forms of competition that do not involve killing the other player or being killed by them. Crafting comes to mind quite well for that. As does some form of merchant (yourself, npc, auction house whatever it is).
The person that doesn't want to touch pvp at all, there is no hope of attracting them. I'm thinking more of people like me. That only occasionally pvp, we hate being ganked because it interrupts whatever goal we are trying to do, would not gank the person that was just sitting there fishing. Factions seem interesting and add a touch of excitement but the previous sentence still applies. What is the draw for me that I can't either already get in some pve game or in a theoretical future well made pve game.
- edit. Just went through your posts on this thread.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
I didn't say they could freely gank people. I wouldn't have the ability to become a god-like character in the game. Basically, you would have a chance of getting killed in any battle you started. Backstabbing from the shadows or sniping with an arrow from the distance might be some of the few ways you could possibly assassinate someone without the possibility of getting killed yourself. Even ganging up on someone doesn't make you completely safe. Only six people can realistically attack someone at the same time. But for that, they'd have to be very-skilled fighters who can coordinate well together. That means basically all their skill points would have to be put into combat, so they wouldn't be good at anything else. And they would have to have fought together for awhile. Even then, it's possible to take one down at least before they kill you.
I don't like stat, level, or gear progression. Throw it away. It's stupid. A human can train certain skills and actions by training or repetition, but there are definite limits. And if you train one thing, that means you usually don't have time to train another. Why body-builders normally aren't rocket scientists.
Also, if you kill someone that belongs to a certain kingdom, you're basically declaring war on their entire kingdom. Might be in your interest if you wanted to start a war between your kingdom and theirs. Maybe not always the best idea if you're just a gang of bandits.
The Trammel Paradox is this:
Many PvPers: "UO was ruined when they split it into a PvP and a PvE server."
Same PvPers: "If people can't tolerate consistent abuse I don't want them in my PvP game! We can't let the carebears dumb this game down!"
In simple the idea of the Trammel Paradox is the idea that you want everyone who plays the game to be subjected to whatever forms of abuse you wish to inflict on them, and that you despise carebears. But on the same hand you feel something was lost from UO when the community was separated.
In 2017 there are many MMOs. Most of them are catered primarily to PvEers. So if you believe that Trammel was a mistake and there shouldn't be separation it is logically inconsistent to despise carebears and want them driven from your games. They will simply say "**** this ****!" and return to carebear games continuing the divide between between PvErs and PvPers personified by the Trammel split.
So which is it:
A. Did the Trammel split not harm the PvP community and was it in-fact a good move?
B. Did we lose something when we lost the carebears/crafters/PvErs?
I am a firm believer in B. If you also believe in B, then this a situation we need solutions to. We need to find ways to curb the behaviors that drive them away and allow them to comfortably exist in our community, and we need to give actual draws to our games most PvE games can't offer.
It did but I think the PVPers hated that they couldnt just kill noobs all day
There just games. It's ok if you dont win every time...
Are you saying that women are less likly to be a ganker? I am confused as to why you would think that.
Most of the females I can think of that have played villainous roles in video games tend toward the use of lies, propaganda, and manipulating others to do their bidding. Griefers / gankers are generally tools for such people to use. They inhabit the same guilds but play very different roles. Infact even one of the two females I listed as a ganker was more of a manipulator than a soldier. She just did both.
But would is it really a big deal if all you can ever do with your paladin in a game world is follow orders (do quests), raid dungeons, or kill another player-character? If you never need to defend your kingdom against another kingdom or monster/undead horde? If you never have a chance of becoming a lord with his own castle or leading an army in battle? If your chosen deity never interrupts your day and commands you to go on a specific quest to defeat evil somewhere in some far off realm or plane?
Btw, I edited my original post again. This is what I added:
My definition of Unfair in MMORPG PvP:
Now if someone outsmarts me or outnumbers me*, fine, that can happen. Wandering out in the wilderness alone is not the greatest idea most of the time.
*Or maneuvers better or plans better, whatever. Basically I want things like wits and skill, tactics and teamwork to play a larger part in PvP than anything else.
Things I am ok with:
1. Economically stronger players and nations being able to produce better gear more easily.
2. Diplomatically savvy nations having more allies / less enemies.
3. Groups that entrench themselves in an area and put resources and time into fortifications being exceptionally hard to push out.
4. Ending up in an unwinnable fight because you made bad tactical decisions.
Things I am not ok with:
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die.
2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means.
3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
Absolutely.
I added this to my Edit #2:
And this:
___________
Safezone mechanics, banking, auction houses, flagging, and all those other mechanics. Do more to help PvPers than they do to help PvEers.
open world PvPer MMOs that I've enjoyed (Haven and Hearth, WurmOnline PvPer/beta servers, and screeps). Are all set up to be very 'hardcore' complete with severe skill loss, map removals, no safe banking and similar. The thing is that you don't find random PvPers since the risks are just too high for them (they don't don't have safe zones, they don't have banks, and best of all you can't really log off to protect yourself/stuff).
When a world is properly set up a being a random PvPer just doesn't work. You'll need some combination of a social network to keep yourself supplied, to safely store items, to even find targets, and protect you from bigger fish.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Just like random murder for sport isn't all that common in the real world. Especially not in the past when the members of different communities depended on each other for survival.
But if you do have access to a bank in any given town or city, it should not be immune from attempted (and sometimes successful) robbery.
I don't like default maps either. A character should need skill in cartography to make a map, at least some rudimentary skills in drawing and some intelligence and/or wisdom in order to map out a dungeon, or have enough coin to buy a map somewhere or from someone. There's no reason a map needs to be 100% reliable either. There can be incomplete maps or fake maps. Even fake maps made on purpose by players or npcs. The only way one really knows if a map is accurate or not is after they he or she tries to use it. Or a player shows the map to another player who has traveled the region before. If they remember correctly or know or can see it corresponds to a good map they have in their possession.
And I definitely want dying to carry a heavy penalty.
There should be no zone, area, town, or city or whatever that is 100% safe. Players can work to make it safer, but there is no such thing as 100% safety anywhere in the real world.
But I can do some of that in today's PvP games. I'll use Darkfall as an example even though I haven't played in years. In DF we grouped together, formed an alliance, built up towns and cities, negotiated with other "nations", declared war, laid siege to enemy strongholds, lost a city that we pourred our hearts and souls into, rallied the troops, negotiated with new allies and took our home back. In that game, not only did my character develop but so did our city. The more you developed it, the stronger it got.
Another great example would be Shadowbane. You could do much of what I described above but one difference was that the GMs also got involved. They would spawn massive PvE events and attack our cities. One time I actually RPed my way to join this massive Demon as his lieutenant and swore allegiance to him during the fight and he gave me special blessings "buffs" and sent his troops behind me. Again, your character would need to develop their skills. This is what allows the emergence of heroes and legendary enemies. This is what gives us a goal to meet and overcome the challenges posed by other players.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Lets say you build this Open PvP world, that requires all these means to play, and there are no safe spots, etc.
What motive would I.. as a Carebear... have to play this game? Why would I even bother to play it?
Your answer was basically you can PvP. That doesn't interest that person.
What is the draw to a person not interested in PvP?
If your going to draw the pve crowd your going to have to explain how your game positively impact pve.
No, that is not what I said at all.
You could effect and change the world without having to kill people in a well-made PvP world. There are things like diplomacy, making trade deals, forming alliances, breaking alliances, remaining neutral during a time of war between two other kingdoms or choosing to side with one against another. Gathering enough resources, growing enough food, crafting enough essential items in order for your community to prosper or failing to do so. Fixing a damaged wall before invaders arrive. All kinds of things. So many, many possibilities. And just because there wouldn't be quest givers, that doesn't mean there wouldn't be adventures or dungeons or the ability to find some magical item (though magic should be rare, as in most people might never encounter it or find it). There aren't many wizards or magical items in the Lord of the Rings, which all these medieval fantasy games are based on.
If you read the rest of this thread, you might get some other ideas. Anyway, it doesn't matter right now. The important thing would be to make the game first. Many times, people don't know whether or not they would like something until they try it.
Oh, and you already have to the freedom to choose to PvP in most mmorpgs. It's just that PvP in most mmorpgs is horribly implemented.
EDIT: If you're really smart, wise, and/or careful, you may never or rarely ever have to engage in battle. Fighting is usually a last resort for most people. Or they have some important goal in mind that they believe is worth fighting and even dying for.
Also, resurrection should not be commonplace. The raising of someone from the dead is a pretty miraculous event.
Diplomacy and trade deals can also be done and have been done through guilds and even individual Crafters in many games, without the need for an actual diplomatic UI.
Sure, it's possible to do certain things with AI mobs and scripted events, but it's not the same. To me, playing card games, chess, Monopoly, Life, Risk, Axis & Allies, or Samurai Swords (aka Shogun) is always more fun to play with people than to play against the computer. Even in pencil-and-paper rpgs, there is a human element controlling the monsters and npcs. They are called the Dungeon or Game Master.
As I've said before in another thread, I'm fairly confident that humans will always make more intelligent, challenging, interesting, creative, and imaginative opponents than AI. Also, there's not so much need to constantly create new content if the players themselves are creating the majority of the content for each other.
But you don't have to agree or ever play such a game. No one will force you to play a game you don't want to play. I hope.
Many games have also instituted player made content, usually in ways that involve dungeon making, or making quests. Heck even without the formal ability I've seen people just shout out, "X reward for first person that accomplishes this feat..."
All forms of player made content.
Your right that humans are often more interesting, also more irritating.
Have you read all of my posts in this thread?
And, yes, I agree that people can be irritating at times, but we often have to take the good with the bad in life. Just the way it goes.
But there are some people that simply never want to compete with another human being for anything. Obviously, a game that involves PvP would not be for such people. Cooperation is better than competition, but the ability to choose to cooperate is not quite so meaningful if we can't also choose to compete.
EDIT: Human history has been an endless cycle of moments and situations where people have chosen to either cooperate or compete with each other. And the cycle continues to the present day, even up until this very minute. Do I try to help someone, hurt them, or ignore them? Do I build people up, tear them down, or leave them alone? Do I speak to someone kindly, harshly, or with indifference? Do I love a person, hate a person, or not care either way about a person? All these options we have in life, our ability to weigh the potential consequences or rewards of our choices, and our potential decisions at any given time are what make life interesting and meaningful. Our choices may result in benefits and/or drawbacks, advantages and/or disadvantages, positives and/or negatives. We have the ability to effect or change some person or some part of the world every day, every hour, every moment.
Life wouldn't be worth living if everything I did everyday was scripted. Nor do I believe that playing a game where everything is scripted is worth my time.
There are also other forms of competition that do not involve killing the other player or being killed by them. Crafting comes to mind quite well for that. As does some form of merchant (yourself, npc, auction house whatever it is).
The person that doesn't want to touch pvp at all, there is no hope of attracting them. I'm thinking more of people like me. That only occasionally pvp, we hate being ganked because it interrupts whatever goal we are trying to do, would not gank the person that was just sitting there fishing. Factions seem interesting and add a touch of excitement but the previous sentence still applies. What is the draw for me that I can't either already get in some pve game or in a theoretical future well made pve game.
- edit. Just went through your posts on this thread.