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Should boxxing be disallowed?

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  • BcudaBcuda Member UncommonPosts: 163
    Its not the responsibility of the devs to not allow boxing... They just need to make it too hard to box. If you want the game to be a social game that relies on other classes to be successful . They need to make boxing real hard to do and no auto follow.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    Kyleran said:



    Dullahan said:






    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything




    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.




    Actually the meaning has never changed. It's literally paying more money to succeed. In an mmo, especially one that's meant to be more strictly cooperative, paying more money to succeed without needing other people meets all the p2w criteria. It's just such an accepted norm that people overlook it.

    If the way people play the game effects me, I'm going to say something. Just as cash shops effect me, I will also bring up the negatives of boxing.

    There's a reason EQ was a great game. People needed each other. Especially for the first 3 or 4 years where almost no one boxed. When boxing became the norm, the quality of the community and respect players had for each others was reduced drastically.




    You clearly don't understand what the term "win" means which invalidates your argument.

    By your definition if I buy better computer hardware, secure a better internet connection or purchase a game guide its P2W.

    The term becomes meaningless when bastardized to this extent.

    Multi boxing may provide advantages others don't have, but winning isn't one of them.






    Yeah, because having a second character is less powerful than buying a better weapon from a cash shop...


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,081

    svann said:




    Nanfoodle said:







    svann said:






    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.









    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.








    The reason is, solo players normally refuse a team. Most of the boxxers I know will add people to their team. I ran a team of setup of my Necro, Tank and cleric. If a healer asked to join I would just log off my cleric and enjoy just playing. If a Tank showed up I would stop kiting and let them tank. There are some boxxers that play a full team and let no one join but with Pantheons rules and class mechanics, I dont see that happening. 






    Disagree.
    1. Most boxxers dont even hear calls for player looking for group unless you send them a tell personally, and it needs to be addressed to the one leading the group not the boxxes.

    2. Most soloers would love to join a group but are not willing to search for 40 minutes to find one.


     I disagree as well :) I can't count how many times I have stood at a quest hub asking people as they come and go if they would like to do this quest teamed. I have stood by a named spawn yelling who wants to team up, sending tells to people walking by ignoring me. Solo players are solo players. 

    As for boxers, I always invited people. It made my life easier. Of course you need to send a tell to the main character everything pins to. I went back to EQ1 last year and not one boxer I asked to join didn't invite me. 
    Catibrie
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,081

    Dullahan said:




    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything



    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.



    Actually the meaning has never changed. It's literally paying more money to succeed. In an mmo, especially one that's meant to be more strictly cooperative, paying more money to succeed without needing other people meets all the p2w criteria. It's just such an accepted norm that people overlook it.

    If the way people play the game effects me, I'm going to say something. Just as cash shops effect me, I will also bring up the negatives of boxing.

    There's a reason EQ was a great game. People needed each other. Especially for the first 3 or 4 years where almost no one boxed. When boxing became the norm, the quality of the community and respect players had for each others was reduced drastically.


     Here I don't agree as well. P2W will always be the point your money gives me an advantage in combat over someone else. If I don't buy the boosts from cash shop I will lose in PvP. If I don't buy the gear from the cash shop I won't make the cut for a team or raid. 

    Boxing only advantage is you have a team no matter where you go. Does not let you box anywhere. You still need to pick where you use it. It's really only helpful in grinding experience or farming. Not saying it should be in Pantheon but P2W label is getting over used. By this standard all cash shops are P2W and they are not.  
    Catibrie
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,070
    edited April 2017
    Who cares about multiboxing? It is more important imo if the additional toons are fully scripted bots and whether that is allowed according to the devs.

    As long as the person has to manually handle all his simultanously logged in accounts, I don't see a problem. It would look the same as having multiple people playing from behind a shared IP.

    Fully scripted bots (3rd party scripts) though, I am against for several reasons (too elaborate to explain and keep this post short).
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,081
    edited April 2017






    Who cares about multiboxing? It is more important imo if the additional toons are fully scripted bots and whether that is allowed according to the devs.

    As long as the person has to manually handle all his simultanously logged in accounts, I don't see a problem. It would look the same as having multiple people playing from behind a shared IP.

    Fully scripted bots (3rd party scripts) though, I am against for several reasons (too elaborate to explain and keep this post short).






     I agree with this but it's for this reason I don't think you will see boxing in Pantheon. We have been promised some interesting AI. Class depth as well. If it's not a Banning offense we may only people running a second account for Heals. I think it should be permitted as long as you are playing all the classes. 
    Post edited by Nanfoodle on
    Catibrie
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740

    Dullahan said:



    Kyleran said:





    Dullahan said:








    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything





    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.





    Actually the meaning has never changed. It's literally paying more money to succeed. In an mmo, especially one that's meant to be more strictly cooperative, paying more money to succeed without needing other people meets all the p2w criteria. It's just such an accepted norm that people overlook it.

    If the way people play the game effects me, I'm going to say something. Just as cash shops effect me, I will also bring up the negatives of boxing.

    There's a reason EQ was a great game. People needed each other. Especially for the first 3 or 4 years where almost no one boxed. When boxing became the norm, the quality of the community and respect players had for each others was reduced drastically.






    You clearly don't understand what the term "win" means which invalidates your argument.

    By your definition if I buy better computer hardware, secure a better internet connection or purchase a game guide its P2W.

    The term becomes meaningless when bastardized to this extent.

    Multi boxing may provide advantages others don't have, but winning isn't one of them.








    Yeah, because having a second character is less powerful than buying a better weapon from a cash shop...


    Got to take exception to that last one.  So always playing with a close friend or significant other is pay to win? After all another human being who you can chat to has to be better than a boxed account and if one person pays for both accounts.


    Boxing is a curse, and pretty close to cheating, but it is not pay to win.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2017
    Nanfoodle said:
    Here I don't agree as well. P2W will always be the point your money gives me an advantage in combat over someone else. If I don't buy the boosts from cash shop I will lose in PvP. If I don't buy the gear from the cash shop I won't make the cut for a team or raid. 
    That's exactly what it became in EQ. If you didn't box, you were at a disadvantage. Guilds even prioritized people willing to box.

    craftseeker said:

    Got to take exception to that last one.  So always playing with a close friend or significant other is pay to win? After all another human being who you can chat to has to be better than a boxed account and if one person pays for both accounts.

    Boxing is a curse, and pretty close to cheating, but it is not pay to win.


    No playing with a close friend is multiplayer. That is called false equivalence.



    I mean feel free to disagree, but you failed to provide a valid argument as to how paying for the advantage provided by a second character in a game revolving heavily around teamwork, does not fit all criteria of pay to win.

    People are too close to this one to remain objective. Folks, you can no longer see the forest for the trees. Either you didn't play EQ or another rigidly cooperative games and experience the effects of boxing, or you have done it so much you are giving it a pass without further consideration.


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740

    Dullahan said: I

    Nanfoodle said:
    Here I don't agree as well. P2W will always be the point your money gives me an advantage in combat over someone else. If I don't buy the boosts from cash shop I will lose in PvP. If I don't buy the gear from the cash shop I won't make the cut for a team or raid. 
    That's exactly what it became in EQ. If you didn't box, you were at a disadvantage. Guilds even prioritized people willing to box.


    craftseeker said:


    Got to take exception to that last one.  So always playing with a close friend or significant other is pay to win? After all another human being who you can chat to has to be better than a boxed account and if one person pays for both accounts.

    Boxing is a curse, and pretty close to cheating, but it is not pay to win.



    No playing with a close friend is multiplayer. That is called false equivalence.





    I mean feel free to disagree, but you failed to provide a valid argument as to how paying for the advantage provided by a second character in a game revolving heavily around teamwork, does not fit all criteria of pay to win.

    People are too close to this one to remain objective. Folks, you can no longer see the forest for the trees. Either you didn't play EQ or another rigidly cooperative games and experience the effects of boxing, or you have done it so much you are giving it a pass without further consideration.


    "Paying for the advantage provided by a second character" is exactly the point I addressed. If you are paying for two accounts then arranging for one of them to be played by another human being is obviously superior to boxing them both. It is you sir that is incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.  Since you have a blind spot consider not just paying for multiple accounts but also hiring people to play them for you.

    Also I certainly did not 'give it a pass' I said "Boxing is a curse, and pretty close to cheating, but it is not pay to win."

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,081
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:


    Nanfoodle said:
    Here I don't agree as well. P2W will always be the point your money gives me an advantage in combat over someone else. If I don't buy the boosts from cash shop I will lose in PvP. If I don't buy the gear from the cash shop I won't make the cut for a team or raid. 
    That's exactly what it became in EQ. If you didn't box, you were at a disadvantage. Guilds even prioritized people willing to box.



    craftseeker said:



    Got to take exception to that last one.  So always playing with a close friend or significant other is pay to win? After all another human being who you can chat to has to be better than a boxed account and if one person pays for both accounts.

    Boxing is a curse, and pretty close to cheating, but it is not pay to win.






    No playing with a close friend is multiplayer. That is called false equivalence.







    I mean feel free to disagree, but you failed to provide a valid argument as to how paying for the advantage provided by a second character in a game revolving heavily around teamwork, does not fit all criteria of pay to win.

    People are too close to this one to remain objective. Folks, you can no longer see the forest for the trees. Either you didn't play EQ or another rigidly cooperative games and experience the effects of boxing, or you have done it so much you are giving it a pass without further consideration.


    _________________________________________________________________________

    Nanfoodle: Telling people what P2W means is a bad way to try and get people to say no to boxing. The point, there has been many polls on what P2W means and very few people agree with what you call P2W. By your standard all cash shops are P2W and they are not. 
    Catibrie
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    Have to say I'm for multi-boxing... Sure it gives an advantage, that's the entire point of doing it. The down side is system resource consumption and wallet size (in the case of subscriptions). Not everyone has a computer that can handle multiple game clients running well. And not everyone can afford an extra couple subscriptions. That's hardly pay to win. Rules of the game still apply and multiboxing can't accomplish some of the extreme things that some would assume.  No matter what input manipulation is used or anything, you simply can't just solo the top end content of any game through multiboxing effectively, and most games block third party programs any way these days. 
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,071
    As a disclaimer, I know very little about Pantheon.

    In my opinion, as long as a group of actual people is more attractive (and effective) than a group of multi-boxers, it's not a big issue. If you have content for 5 people, done by 8 multi-boxing characters, then the multi-boxer is technically at a disadvantage. If the content drops 1 weapon per run, the boxer would have to run it 8 times to equip his group. A player with 1 character would have to run it 5 times to equip himself (and his group of strangers).

    I think in that case, it's in everyone's best interest to allow this. The multi-boxer provides 8x the revenue of a normal player, while being less competitive to a player-only group. I understand some people love multi-boxing as a challenge and the feeling of self-reliance. It's probably a win win for everyone.

    If the multi-boxing group is similar in performance to a normal group (or superior), the game design will likely run into trouble. If a 5-player dungeon is multi-boxed by a group of 3, then the multi-boxing setup itself is an unfair advantage in my opinion. This makes multi-boxing not something a select group of people enjoy, but something that everyone is encouraged to do. In that case, you are effectively building a game for multi-boxers by design (probably not something most would enjoy).
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,081
    edited April 2017
    Kilsin said on the Pantheon forums: We don't support automated anything ;) (Also talking about macro he said)  it may be caught by our detection system and deemed cheating and dealt with.

    The official Pantheon FAQ says: 10.4 Will multi-boxing be allowed in Pantheon?

    Our reaction to multi-boxing is to try something first before we even entertain the idea of artificially restricting it. We want to make combat, especially mid and higher level combat, so tactically intense, with so much going on, so much to do, so much to counter, so many companions to keep alive and the timing of many abilities crucial, that multi-boxing is extremely difficult if not impossible and likely far inferior to having an actual real person in your group.

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    So box away, just make sure you are the one pressing every keystroke. Boxing wont be a big deal. Even gaming keyboards could get you banned for setting up macros. So boxer will be few and the ones that do it wont be running an entire team. Most likely a healer bot that the first healer to come along playing their char will do a better job. 


    Catibrie
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,540
    edited April 2017
    Good guilds are very important. I learnt that when I was playing WoW .I had a super great guild I loved everyone in it they were polite, funny and full of good conversation in guild chat. Some had come from better guilds and we were upbeat and happy until we started raiding. The failures started and then people getting angry and leaving. Those of us who stayed tried our best but it was clear we were not going to do better. In the end we all went to other guilds.

    I went to another guild that was strict and mean and being a housewife I could not come on time at times. I got penalized but I stayed because they cleared stuff and were good at it. In then end despite their good record of clearance I was out of place.

    I liked my old guild but they were useless. I then decided I had to decide what my priorities were. Whether end game was so important to me. Whether  spending time making money to buy pots was worth it to me so I can spend two or three hours standing here then when told go there. I decided it was not and left WoW.
    Chamber of Chains
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    cheyane said:



    Nanfoodle said:





    svann said:





    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.








    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.






    The reason is, solo players normally refuse a team. Most of the boxxers I know will add people to their team. I ran a team of setup of my Necro, Tank and cleric. If a healer asked to join I would just log off my cleric and enjoy just playing. If a Tank showed up I would stop kiting and let them tank. There are some boxxers that play a full team and let no one join but with Pantheons rules and class mechanics, I dont see that happening. 




    I have found the opposite to be true because multiboxers want to keep the loot for themselves and being able to handle harder content they have that possibility and solo players tend to want to group because they can handle the mobs faster and also take on stronger foe.



    This

    I solo not because I dislike grouping but because I am either unable to find a group or simply don't have the time to commit to a group.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 281

    cheyane said:

    Good guilds are very important. I learnt that when I was playing WoW .I had a super great guild I loved everyone in it they were polite, funny and full of good conversation in guild chat. Some had come from better guilds and we were upbeat and happy until we started raiding. The failures started and then people getting angry and leaving. Those of us who stayed tried our best but it was clear we were not going to do better. In the end we all went to other guilds.

    I went to another guild that was strict and mean and being a housewife I could not come on time at times. I got penalized but I stayed because they cleared stuff and were good at it. In then end despite their good record of clearance I was out of place.

    I liked my old guild but they were useless. I then decided I had to decide what my priorities were. Whether end game was so important to me. Whether  spending time making money to buy pots was worth it to me so I can spend two or three hours standing here then when told go there. I decided it was not and left WoW.

    I feel bad for you.  Both is possible.  Sounds like you gave up your search for a guild that was a good fit to soon.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,381
    edited April 2017
    I strongly believe Boxing should be disallowed. It ruined the community of the early progression servers in EQ1. And I don't buy the whole argument that "Pantheon combat is so difficult that boxing isn't feasible". People will find a way. To think otherwise is naive.

    Hopefully, the devs realize the need for a boxing restriction before launch.


    --------------------------------------------
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,270
    edited April 2017
    Players are way more craftier than developers ever give them credit for. They manage to find ways to do things that end up bewildering developers and no matter how foolproof they think a system is it falls short when facing a determined army of players. All I can say is good luck you guys but I sincerely doubt you will be able to keep the multiboxers at bay.

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,956
    Yes, it should be disallowed, or at least heavily discouraged. I don't consider it to be cheating or pay to win, but it straddles that line so closely that if someone were to call it either of those things, I wouldn't take issue with their usage of those terms. 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

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  • NimrylNimryl Member UncommonPosts: 19
    Should be disallowed. Why? You're playing a group orientated RPG;

    1) Role-playing: Playing two characters at once isn't good for role-playing.

    From a RP stand point it doesn't make any sense.. You're playing a character with in a fantasy world. You have a personal role you wish to enact out in the world that you want to be immersed in for each character.

    Role-playing two characters at the same time would mean you'd need to abstract yourself out of each character all the time and would be very difficult. It would be hard to really form any attachment to the world or the character(s) you're playing and playing with. I'm not saying it would be impossible but it would be very silly as it would be very hard to truly be the character(s) you're playing day in and day out. Keeping track of it all would be difficult.

    2) Advantage & Finance.

    From a non-RP stand point not only does it give you an edge with gear, combat, stats etc.. But it also places someone else or even others on that LFG tag for longer. It's not fair in my opinion from a financial situation from one player to another. I strongly believe everyone should have a fair chance regardless of their financial situation in a game. (No P2W or any form of it.)

    If you've played this type of game before.. and the more we play just one character each the better the chances we all have of finding a group in the long run. (fairer.)



    To me it's a no-brainer. But people will argue because they want that advantage. Believe me.. I could afford multiple accounts and box quite easily. But I've choosen not too for these very reasons.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    edited May 2017
    I'll be two boxing without any third party help, it will be me just playing in windows mode on auto follow. Nothing wrong with that, in fact if I run a healer then that means the group has an extra healer. 

    I did it in EQ and I did it in vanguard so I'll be doing it in Pantheon. If I want to buy two accounts I will and should be allowed to. I'm not playing the game to make those who don't like it feel better. 

    As for pvp, why would you want to buy two accounts for an mmo where pve comes first. 

    Great. 
    Kilsin




  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,381
    I don't have a problem with people doing traditional multi-boxing, where they have to switch tabs to perform actions on each character.

    My issue is with the players that automate keystrokes, or have macros that can perform actions on their other characters without switching from their main character. This allows people to multi-box entire groups.

    I don't know how VR plans to stop the latter from happening. If they can, then I would consider the problem solved. If they can't, then they need to take the approach that EQ1 is with their progression servers, and stop everyone from boxing by preventing multiple game clients from running on the same machine. 
    Kilsin
    --------------------------------------------
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,381
    @DMKano Whatever they did to stop it in EQ1 on their progression servers helped a ton.

    Maybe there weren't any "serious" multi-boxers playing, idk.

    But the multi-boxers running 6+ mages and killing raid bosses solo no longer seemed to happen. 

    Also, if boxing was against the rules and someone bypassed the system in order to run many multiple accounts, it'd be pretty obvious and GM could intervene.
    svann
    --------------------------------------------
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    It's not hard to limit number of characters from an IP address. There are even ways of detecting whether your IP is from a normal ISP or a VPN.
    Phry


  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    svann said:
    Boxxing is running 2 or more characters at once by having more than one or several accounts and a computer that is strong enough to run more than one game client.  It is common in EQ for there to be entire groups run by one person.

    It seems to me that all the people that are against soloing should be even moreso against boxxing since its just as anti-social plus it takes away group content from groups and reduces the population of players looking for groups.  EQ has recently started a no-boxxing server by not allowing 2 accounts to run from the same computer.  Its still possible if you have 2 or more computers but by all accounts it has greatly diminished boxxing on that server.

    Should Pantheon copy that idea?

    Stopping it is just bad business.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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