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Should boxxing be disallowed?

svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
Boxxing is running 2 or more characters at once by having more than one or several accounts and a computer that is strong enough to run more than one game client.  It is common in EQ for there to be entire groups run by one person.

It seems to me that all the people that are against soloing should be even moreso against boxxing since its just as anti-social plus it takes away group content from groups and reduces the population of players looking for groups.  EQ has recently started a no-boxxing server by not allowing 2 accounts to run from the same computer.  Its still possible if you have 2 or more computers but by all accounts it has greatly diminished boxxing on that server.

Should Pantheon copy that idea?
Keeno
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Comments

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,270
    edited April 2017
    I certainly hope so I hate people who do this. This will mean less groups for me if one player can play the game by themselves multiboxing.

  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    We answer that question and more in our detailed FAQ: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/ :)
    CatibrieNyctelios

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    In my opinion, there should at least be certain servers where it's disallowed. Perhaps hardcore servers.


  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,143
    edited April 2017
    I don't mind boxing, or boxers, at all. If you want to do your own thing - you paid for the game, do what you want.

    I hated having content where boxing was the only reasonable way to get through it. Everquest is notorious for it; there is just so much varied content out there,  limited methods to find someone to do it with you, and and even more limted player base.

    If you didn't have a fairly large guild of really helpful people who played at the same time as you, you were going to be boxing to clear a lot of content. I have come and gone from EQ more times than I care to remember now, and every time I come back, I hit some stretch where it's box (and with that I'm including soloing w/merc, which is essentially the same thing), or kite, or sit around and stare at the guild hall.

    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing. Blame the game that makes it easier to load up 6 characters on one computer and find some way to marionette them all, than it is to find a group of 5 other real players.
    [Deleted User]GolelornUproar
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2017
    Ridelynn said:

    I don't mind boxing, or boxers, at all. If you want to do your own thing - you paid for the game, do what you want.

    I hated having content where boxing was the only reasonable way to get through it. Everquest is notorious for it; there is just so much varied content out there,  limited methods to find someone to do it with you, and and even more limted player base.

    If you didn't have a fairly large guild of really helpful people who played at the same time as you, you were going to be boxing to clear a lot of content. I have come and gone from EQ more times than I care to remember now, and every time I come back, I hit some stretch where it's box (and with that I'm including soloing w/merc, which is essentially the same thing), or kite, or sit around and stare at the guild hall.


    The problem with that "they paid for it" line of thinking, is that it's the same justification used for pay 2 win and cash shops in general. Part of the challenge in a massively multiplayer game is coordinating with other players to progress. By allowing players to pay to do that on their own, it really becomes it's own variety of pay to win.

    DMKano said:
    For a pure sub game boxing is additional revenue. It would be insane for them to disallow multi-boxing.

    As the FAQ states they are trying to make it to where multi boxing is hard to do via in game mechanics. Of course this will not be an issue for hardcore multiboxers but it's a nice gesture.

    The first thing they should do to make boxing hard is removing auto-follow, tbh. At that point, it will become pretty obvious who is boxing, and who is cheating.
    Viper482


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740

    Dullahan said:

    Ridelynn said:


    I don't mind boxing, or boxers, at all. If you want to do your own thing - you paid for the game, do what you want.

    I hated having content where boxing was the only reasonable way to get through it. Everquest is notorious for it; there is just so much varied content out there,  limited methods to find someone to do it with you, and and even more limted player base.

    If you didn't have a fairly large guild of really helpful people who played at the same time as you, you were going to be boxing to clear a lot of content. I have come and gone from EQ more times than I care to remember now, and every time I come back, I hit some stretch where it's box (and with that I'm including soloing w/merc, which is essentially the same thing), or kite, or sit around and stare at the guild hall.



    The problem with that "they paid for it" line of thinking, is that it's the same justification used for pay 2 win and cash shops in general. Part of the challenge in a massively multiplayer game is coordinating with other players to progress. By allowing players to pay to do that on their own, it really becomes it's own variety of pay to win.


    DMKano said:
    For a pure sub game boxing is additional revenue. It would be insane for them to disallow multi-boxing.

    As the FAQ states they are trying to make it to where multi boxing is hard to do via in game mechanics. Of course this will not be an issue for hardcore multiboxers but it's a nice gesture.


    The first thing they should do to make boxing hard is removing auto-follow, tbh. At that point, it will become pretty obvious who is boxing, and who is cheating.


    The more sophisticated boxing software out there makes little use of in game auto-follow, they have their own movement routines that allow for quite complex formation movement.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    If this game takes off we will see levels of boxing that are unprecedented. People will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid socializing.
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,336
    I am a no and yes for this.  For PVE I see no reason at all to ban boxing.  If a person wants to play by themselves and has the money and know how to do it let them.  For PVP based gaming yeah ban the crap out of it. 
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,143
    edited April 2017
    Naw, multiboxing and Pay to Win are totally different, at least in my opinion.

    The Devs are allowed to set limits on how they want you to play the game - they can say "You can only use a Controller and not a Keyboard/Mouse". They can say "You can't load two instances of the client at a time".

    But, barring a dev flat out saying it's not allowed for whatever reason, why are the other players trying to make that decision for another player? 

    I don't like chocolate ice cream, it removes ice cream that could be vanilla from the world, so no one can have chocolate ice cream. That makes even less sense to me than pay to win. Using that same (very poor) analogy, I would say it's on the dev to make ice cream taste better, not to just dump chocolate all together.

    rochrist
  • damond5031damond5031 Member UncommonPosts: 445
    Boxing allows a relatively small amount of people to monopolize the most rewarding mobs/camps in the game. Boxers find the most rewarding areas to farm, set up camp, and completely take over the most rewarding non instanced content 24/7. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    With the right difficulty I don't think it will be a large problem, just force us to focus on our character to win. When someone can run a whole party they are either some kind of prodigy or the game is way too easy, and it is usually the last.

    I certainly know people who box 6 players in EQ2 but the group dynamics and generally difficulty there is rather easy.
    Stuff like skill rotation makes boxing pretty easy and it is a rather boring mechanic anyways, put.focus on timing the right skill at the right moment.

    And what thebeasttt said about auto follow. 

    If boxing still becomes common we can start discussing banning it...
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2017
    DMKano said:



    Dullahan said:
    The first thing they should do to make boxing hard is removing auto-follow, tbh. At that point, it will become pretty obvious who is boxing, and who is cheating.




    Multiboxing technology has advanced a lot over the years, follow commands are done via "gps" location system that is not dependent on in game follow commands.

    Of course this will most likely be illegal for Pantheon, but as in any MMO, boxing is there.






    Right, but without such a command available in game, it makes boxing more difficult. If it's more difficult, people have to rely on actual other people. The up side is that it also makes it obvious to see who is botting or using other forbidden tools.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,082
    I used to run 3 accounts in EQ1 all the time. My Necro, a cleric and my friends ranger. Chain pulling in PoP with my necromancer. If a tank and other dps wanted to join I was always game. I don't see a problem with it. 
    Catibrie
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,631
    I'm not a fan of boxing but I don't mind it either. I've only every had one or two bad encounters with them in all this time. I've had several fun interactions.

    I've met a couple where we teamed up for a bit. They were just 2 boxing and enjoyed a live 3rd and our dungeon run was smoother.

    I always found 2 and multi-box players were pretty into the game. They seem kind of 4x/RTS types that liked to build units. The few I talked to like to build their entire characters builds around each other. Pretty cool.

    The bad experience was in pvp land. A full party of boxed characters can sync and focus fire pretty good. They make good quick hit squads. They make terrible long term fighters because there are tactics you can do to confuse the software.

    I don't think they should be allowed on pvp servers. Other than that let the community grow organically and work through actual social issues as they surface.
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  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    edited April 2017


    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.





    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member UncommonPosts: 1,500
    I like the people who do it manually. Watched some guy with 4 ps4's do a complete run of a 200 floor dungeon in FFXIV.
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,309
    i see nothing wrong with manually dual boxing. it's when you got full groups of multi boxers who are cheating by using third party programs that are the problem.


    Golelorn
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,309

    svann said:



    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.






    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.


    it is the same thing, no doubt about it. but as long as dual boxing isn't as efficient as two real players, then i'm still fine with it. but there must not be macroing allowed, that's when you get full multiboxing groups that are very efficient.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,082

    svann said:



    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.






    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.


    The reason is, solo players normally refuse a team. Most of the boxxers I know will add people to their team. I ran a team of setup of my Necro, Tank and cleric. If a healer asked to join I would just log off my cleric and enjoy just playing. If a Tank showed up I would stop kiting and let them tank. There are some boxxers that play a full team and let no one join but with Pantheons rules and class mechanics, I dont see that happening. 
    Catibrie
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:


    Ridelynn said:



    I don't mind boxing, or boxers, at all. If you want to do your own thing - you paid for the game, do what you want.

    I hated having content where boxing was the only reasonable way to get through it. Everquest is notorious for it; there is just so much varied content out there,  limited methods to find someone to do it with you, and and even more limted player base.

    If you didn't have a fairly large guild of really helpful people who played at the same time as you, you were going to be boxing to clear a lot of content. I have come and gone from EQ more times than I care to remember now, and every time I come back, I hit some stretch where it's box (and with that I'm including soloing w/merc, which is essentially the same thing), or kite, or sit around and stare at the guild hall.




    The problem with that "they paid for it" line of thinking, is that it's the same justification used for pay 2 win and cash shops in general. Part of the challenge in a massively multiplayer game is coordinating with other players to progress. By allowing players to pay to do that on their own, it really becomes it's own variety of pay to win.



    DMKano said:
    For a pure sub game boxing is additional revenue. It would be insane for them to disallow multi-boxing.

    As the FAQ states they are trying to make it to where multi boxing is hard to do via in game mechanics. Of course this will not be an issue for hardcore multiboxers but it's a nice gesture.



    The first thing they should do to make boxing hard is removing auto-follow, tbh. At that point, it will become pretty obvious who is boxing, and who is cheating.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything
    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with
    the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.
    Viper482
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,911
    I dont mind multi-boxing. I used to box myself in Lineage 2.

    If the server population is healthy, so that you can find whatever role you need within a reasonable time frame, then I would not mind if it is not allowed.

    It also depends on the playstyle of the classes ingame, for me. For instance, in L2, it was almost impossible to play the quick casting mage without a mana healer as you would spend much more time resting than grinding. You could invite another player to join your group and heal your mana, but it was not ensured that there is always someone to join you whenever you want to play and you also lose a bit of freedom when you have another player in your group (e.g. to take a break whenever you feel like, to play in a slower pace when you want to just chill, etc.).
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    edited April 2017


    Nanfoodle said:





    svann said:





    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.








    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.






    The reason is, solo players normally refuse a team. Most of the boxxers I know will add people to their team. I ran a team of setup of my Necro, Tank and cleric. If a healer asked to join I would just log off my cleric and enjoy just playing. If a Tank showed up I would stop kiting and let them tank. There are some boxxers that play a full team and let no one join but with Pantheons rules and class mechanics, I dont see that happening. 




    Disagree.
    1. Most boxxers dont even hear calls for player looking for group unless you send them a tell personally, and it needs to be addressed to the one leading the group not the boxxes.

    2. Most soloers would love to join a group but are not willing to search for 40 minutes to find one.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2017


    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything


    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.


    Actually the meaning has never changed. It's literally paying more money to succeed. In an mmo, especially one that's meant to be more strictly cooperative, paying more money to succeed without needing other people meets all the p2w criteria. It's just such an accepted norm that people overlook it.

    If the way people play the game effects me, I'm going to say something. Just as cash shops effect me, I will also bring up the negatives of boxing.

    There's a reason EQ was a great game. People needed each other. Especially for the first 3 or 4 years where almost no one boxed. When boxing became the norm, the quality of the community and respect players had for each others was reduced drastically.
    HrimnirViper482


  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,541

    Nanfoodle said:



    svann said:




    Ridelynn said:
    Don't blame the player who's just doing it to keep progressing.







    I dont blame anyone.  Im just trying to force people to consider the comparison between boxxing and soloing.  I really dont get why so many are ok with boxxing but think soloers are an anathema.  Its practically the same thing.




    The reason is, solo players normally refuse a team. Most of the boxxers I know will add people to their team. I ran a team of setup of my Necro, Tank and cleric. If a healer asked to join I would just log off my cleric and enjoy just playing. If a Tank showed up I would stop kiting and let them tank. There are some boxxers that play a full team and let no one join but with Pantheons rules and class mechanics, I dont see that happening. 


    I have found the opposite to be true because multiboxers want to keep the loot for themselves and being able to handle harder content they have that possibility and solo players tend to want to group because they can handle the mobs faster and also take on stronger foe.
    Chamber of Chains
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,020

    Dullahan said:




    Multi-boxing is not P2W. I swear people change the meaning of everything



    to make anything they have an issue with look bad when its them with the issue.

    Play the game the way you want, and leave everyone else to play the way they want.



    Actually the meaning has never changed. It's literally paying more money to succeed. In an mmo, especially one that's meant to be more strictly cooperative, paying more money to succeed without needing other people meets all the p2w criteria. It's just such an accepted norm that people overlook it.

    If the way people play the game effects me, I'm going to say something. Just as cash shops effect me, I will also bring up the negatives of boxing.

    There's a reason EQ was a great game. People needed each other. Especially for the first 3 or 4 years where almost no one boxed. When boxing became the norm, the quality of the community and respect players had for each others was reduced drastically.


    You clearly don't understand what the term "win" means which invalidates your argument.

    By your definition if I buy better computer hardware, secure a better internet connection or purchase a game guide its P2W.

    The term becomes meaningless when bastardized to this extent.

    Multi boxing may provide advantages others don't have, but winning isn't one of them.




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