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Please have a good percentage of solo content.

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,581

    Kyleran said:





    I don't think many here get my point.  Reflecting back on the original post, I can see why because I rambled on too much instead of being crystal clear of what I was trying to get across.

    I understand their will be solo content, it would be crazy not too.  Everyone would need solo time for what I call prep work.



    I'll try and rephrase:
    The only turn off to a large amount of TRUE mmo players is the advertisement of group content. Please understand I'M ALL FOR THIS.

    Pantheon has developed a stigma that may turn off many potential players, EVEN THE HARD CORE !
    Maybe the group stigma through advertisement is real and that's what they want and only want.  Understand I'm totally ok with this for myself........ But does it have to be totally niche ?



    To rephrase again:
    99.9 % niche ?........ By referring people to a Q&A web site saying "their will be some solo content" doesn't answer anything....... If developers are shooting for 99.9 % and this is their goal, then OK !




    You have previously stated a preference (or belief) this game should (or would) rival WOW in popularity.

    Clearly the devs here are not shooting for that niche and have set their sights on a much smaller target.

    How small that ends up to be is debatable of course but to vary from their core design (and message) at this time would only serve to alienate their core target audience.

    I'm not sure you have much experience with old school "camp grinding" games but players will find ways (sometimes novel) to solo content when they wish.



    I understand your point too Klyeran,


    I don't have much experience with the very old school camp grinding, this is true.

    I'm not saying to mess with their core design.  But to "add on top of" is what I'm trying to say. 



    No one knows how much solo content...... V Realms is not clear.......Maybe 1%, maybe 20%, But one thing for sure, it's causing a stigma.....And a good chance an un-needed one !
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003

    Kyleran said:

    You have previously stated a preference (or belief) this game should (or would) rival WOW in popularity.

    Clearly the devs here are not shooting for that niche and have set their sights on a much smaller target.

    How small that ends up to be is debatable of course but to vary from their core design (and message) at this time would only serve to alienate their core target audience.

    I'm not sure you have much experience with old school "camp grinding" games but players will find ways (sometimes novel) to solo content when they wish.


    Abandoning your small core audience in favor of a larger audience is a sound business decision if you become concerned about your game's sustainability. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. 

    In a genre where players can barely speak with each other let alone group with each other almost guarantees a very small player base. Whether it's sustainable or not only time will tell. 

    That's the reality of the situation regardless of how anyone feels about it.
    MrMelGibson
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited April 2017
    postlarval said:
    Abandoning your small core audience in favor of a larger audience is a sound business decision if you become concerned about your game's sustainability. It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. 

    In a genre where players can barely speak with each other let alone group with each other almost guarantees a very small player base. Whether it's sustainable or not only time will tell. 

    That's the reality of the situation regardless of how anyone feels about it.





    The only thing we know isn't sustainable for anyone in many years, is creating an MMO that targets a larger audience, ie. the mainstream. It takes megabucks to compete in that space, and the more they have to compete with those games, the worse they will do.

    The only sound "business decision" at this point, is providing a unique product. Lucky for Pantheon, there are millions of people out there that have played it's spiritual predecessors, and no one is currently offering anything similar. It's really a no-brainer what game they should be making.


  • CaseyxCaseyx Member UncommonPosts: 15
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's human nature to take the path of least resistance. If the game has too much solo content, people will not group or form the communities that made games like EQ so legendary.

    Players are smart and will figure out ways, with enough effort, to solo in various scenarios as mentioned above by many people, some that the devs didn't intend or prep for. I don't mind that sort of thing, it's usually challenging and not for every class or person. Keeps a lot of players from even bothering with it.

    I remember in Ruins of Kunark, a necro buddy running circles around a zone kiting stuff and me and a few other guildies just sat on a hill watching him, trying to figure out why he went thru so much trouble. We must have watched for an hour, laughing at his close calls, sometimes a little envious, entertained for sure.

    You know the thing I remember the most? Sitting on that hill with people I had never met before in RL almost 15 years ago, but still considered actual friends and am still in contact with a bunch of them.

    I only remember a few from WoW and never developed the same friendships, not even close.

    So yeah, I get to OP's post but I'd rather the game have very little solo PvE content in order to foster the same chance of real community and that is what will give this game legs.
    Scott23

    Caseyx

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432

    Caseyx said:

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's human nature to take the path of least resistance. If the game has too much solo content, people will not group or form the communities that made games like EQ so legendary.

    Players are smart and will figure out ways, with enough effort, to solo in various scenarios as mentioned above by many people, some that the devs didn't intend or prep for. I don't mind that sort of thing, it's usually challenging and not for every class or person. Keeps a lot of players from even bothering with it.

    I remember in Ruins of Kunark, a necro buddy running circles around a zone kiting stuff and me and a few other guildies just sat on a hill watching him, trying to figure out why he went thru so much trouble. We must have watched for an hour, laughing at his close calls, sometimes a little envious, entertained for sure.

    You know the thing I remember the most? Sitting on that hill with people I had never met before in RL almost 15 years ago, but still considered actual friends and am still in contact with a bunch of them.

    I only remember a few from WoW and never developed the same friendships, not even close.

    So yeah, I get to OP's post but I'd rather the game have very little solo PvE content in order to foster the same chance of real community and that is what will give this game legs.



    I loved kiting the plane of nightmare with my bard, great tier one xp lol. 




  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,864
    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.
    MrMelGibson
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,082


    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.


    And yet everywhere I turn so many EQ1 and Vanguard fans are supporting this game. Off that note: Pantheon has a whole list of modern elements they are adding to Pantheon. As it says in their FAQ. "They took from EQ what made sense" as in not all of it. If you read the FAQ, you will see there are many new things added to make teaming convenient. Caravan system, down level system and a bunch of others. 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    edited April 2017


    Theocritus said:kl


    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.



    Lol you still don't get it. 


    The game is not going to be a quick fix game, it will be a slow long but enjoyable journey so many of us so called EQ vets have all the time in the world. 

    No hurry at all. 




  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    edited April 2017


    DMKano said:


    is 7% good?


    Things that OP got wrong:

    Pantheon forums here are not the most viewed

    mmorpg.com is not the most viewed site for mmo news (IGN has way more traffic)

    Even bringing up "wow killer" for any game is laughable, for Pantheon its just downright ridiculous




    You clearly didn't read the part where he said your opinion was wrong. All the ones that disagree with him are. :pleased:



    Sure, who am I ?......... I'm just an active poster that thinks too much.  But I just would like to humbly say a few things from my years of observations.  With everything in life and with and a big obsession for mmo's, I study shit.  I always go beyond just having fun.  From day one of any mmo I go right for the " social panel " and check populations, tell me that's not obsession.  Many here think I'm a troll or like to cause controversy but that's not true, I deeply care.......My negativity comes from a REAL knowledge that mmo gamming has 100% fallen apart leaving us with nothing but Asian grinders.  I don't care if others here with this obsession say different, if so their wrong.  This is not a troll statement because its true.





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  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,309

    Mendel said:








    Nanfoodle said:



    Also the main way to solo in EQ1 was kiting and fear kiting.






    I always preferred pet tanking. Easier to deal with summoning mobs and less worry about adds.




    I always preferred root-DoTTing over kiting with my druid.  Safer, in my opinion, as it didn't need acres of space.   South Karana - bring on the kiting.  Dulak's Harbor - snare, root, DoT.


    root rotting is how i soloed on my shaman and it worked well. IMO they really don't need to do anything different from EQ1 in terms of soloability. 

    make soloing totally possible but make it less efficient and slower xp and make the content that drops the good loot not possible to solo. 
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003


    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.


    Unless all of us old school players die of old age before this thing releases. 
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,543


    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.


    I don't know about that.  I found a vanilla DAOC server and I'm back playing with the same guys I played with at launch. Having a blast.  Do we play for 12 hours every day?  No but we play for 2 hours or so. It's nice to be needed in a group.  We all have our roles. When one of us can't play we switch to lower alts.

    Easilly the best time playing an MMORPG in years and that's even with the ancient graphics and UI.


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  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    Albatroes said:

    People dont realize that there has always been "solo content" without devs going out of their way to make it for particular things. It was called farming and leveling/grinding. That may not be the type of "content" people in today's age wanted but it was still something. And yes you could solo level back in the day, it was just inefficient to do it and some classes had easier times doing it vs others. People are playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game but want 90% of the game have solo and/or easy mode options defeating the point. If you want a game like that, just play one of the 20291083 that are currently out, GW2 and TSWL(?) being good games that you can solo most of the stuff in. This game should be 90% grouping with the option to solo but with solo'ing being so outrageously inefficient that you just dont do anything until you get a group. That's pretty much how FFXI went for years. Sure you could solo level, but it wasn't worth the time to do it before Abyssea.


    I would be more than happy with soloing in Pantheon being roughly equivalent to soloing tin EQ.


    Kiting, root rotting, pet tanking, fear kiting, all should have their places in the game.

    You don't need specific content for those options to work, just give the players the tools and some of us will use them, even if they are inefficient compared to grouping.

    Lets face it, even if you enjoy grouping, it's not always an option.

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,082




    Albatroes said:


    People dont realize that there has always been "solo content" without devs going out of their way to make it for particular things. It was called farming and leveling/grinding. That may not be the type of "content" people in today's age wanted but it was still something. And yes you could solo level back in the day, it was just inefficient to do it and some classes had easier times doing it vs others. People are playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game but want 90% of the game have solo and/or easy mode options defeating the point. If you want a game like that, just play one of the 20291083 that are currently out, GW2 and TSWL(?) being good games that you can solo most of the stuff in. This game should be 90% grouping with the option to solo but with solo'ing being so outrageously inefficient that you just dont do anything until you get a group. That's pretty much how FFXI went for years. Sure you could solo level, but it wasn't worth the time to do it before Abyssea.




    I would be more than happy with soloing in Pantheon being roughly equivalent to soloing tin EQ.


    Kiting, root rotting, pet tanking, fear kiting, all should have their places in the game.

    You don't need specific content for those options to work, just give the players the tools and some of us will use them, even if they are inefficient compared to grouping.

    Lets face it, even if you enjoy grouping, it's not always an option.



    Pantheon Devs have said this would be the case with one small difference. The AI is something you would find a little more 2017. So you can kite but some mobs would respond different. Some would just let you kite them. Others wont follow snared, they will run to help, others will kite you back and yet other NPC may do something you dont expect. They did say people will find creative ways to solo and they would likely not change the game just to stop people who figure out ways to solo. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    It won't be only former EQ players playing Pantheon. It will be that type of player. People who want a more cooperative, challenge and immersive environment. It's not like nobody under the age of 30 likes those qualities in an mmo. They just haven't had the option available.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534




    Albatroes said:


    People dont realize that there has always been "solo content" without devs going out of their way to make it for particular things. It was called farming and leveling/grinding. That may not be the type of "content" people in today's age wanted but it was still something. And yes you could solo level back in the day, it was just inefficient to do it and some classes had easier times doing it vs others. People are playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game but want 90% of the game have solo and/or easy mode options defeating the point. If you want a game like that, just play one of the 20291083 that are currently out, GW2 and TSWL(?) being good games that you can solo most of the stuff in. This game should be 90% grouping with the option to solo but with solo'ing being so outrageously inefficient that you just dont do anything until you get a group. That's pretty much how FFXI went for years. Sure you could solo level, but it wasn't worth the time to do it before Abyssea.




    I would be more than happy with soloing in Pantheon being roughly equivalent to soloing tin EQ.


    Kiting, root rotting, pet tanking, fear kiting, all should have their places in the game.

    You don't need specific content for those options to work, just give the players the tools and some of us will use them, even if they are inefficient compared to grouping.

    Lets face it, even if you enjoy grouping, it's not always an option.



    I would actually be pretty disappointed if the trivial means of killing mobs in EQ existed in any similar form in Pantheon. Mobs should kite you in Pantheon rather than you kiting them. I want to see mobs proactively dispelling or curing themselves if they have the appropriate spells. I want to see them looking to dispel the player to remove movement buffs.

    Soloing in Pantheon should be considerably harder than EQ, or Pantheon will have failed to innovate or improve upon the simple AI from 1999.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,020
    edited April 2017










    Counting on the old school 2000 EQ crowd for your business is very risky...Most of them have  families, jobs, etc that make the "lets group for hours" model a very difficult business proposition.






    I don't know about that.  I found a vanilla DAOC server and I'm back playing with the same guys I played with at launch. Having a blast.  Do we play for 12 hours every day?  No but we play for 2 hours or so. It's nice to be needed in a group.  We all have our roles. When one of us can't play we switch to lower alts.

    Easilly the best time playing an MMORPG in years and that's even with the ancient graphics and UI.






    I'm on the same DAOC server, playing with my friends from 2002 days.  While much older, most of us had jobs back then, we still have jobs now, nothings really changed. (well, I no longer have young children around, and now they do... bwa ha ha)

    Not sure where this myth comes from that most old school players were no lifers without jobs, computers to play MMO's were expensive back then, broke people didn't join the genre until WOW made playing on lower end machines possible.




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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538

    Kyleran said:


    I'm on the same DAOC server, playing with my friends from 2002 days.  While much older, most of us had jobs back then, we still have jobs now, nothings really changed. (well, I no longer have young children around, and now they do... bwa ha ha)






    Is that DAOC server F2P?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,020

    Tiamat64 said:



    Kyleran said:



    I'm on the same DAOC server, playing with my friends from 2002 days.  While much older, most of us had jobs back then, we still have jobs now, nothings really changed. (well, I no longer have young children around, and now they do... bwa ha ha)








    Is that DAOC server F2P?


    Yes

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538
    edited April 2017


    Kyleran said:





    Tiamat64 said:







    Kyleran said:





    I'm on the same DAOC server, playing with my friends from 2002 days.  While much older, most of us had jobs back then, we still have jobs now, nothings really changed. (well, I no longer have young children around, and now they do... bwa ha ha)












    Is that DAOC server F2P?






    Yes




    Is Pantheon (going to be) F2P?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Pantheon will be b2p + sub. There will be a trial up to around level 10.


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,538

    Dullahan said:

    Pantheon will be b2p + sub. There will be a trial up to around level 10.


    Okay, that's what I thought.  So those DoaC servers that have old school DoaC players are F2P while Pantheon will be both B2P and sub.

    Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Pantheon has a significant hurdle to overcome that those DoAC servers do not.  Of course, a hurdle is not an insurmountable mountain, but it's still a hurdle.


    Dullahan said:


    I would actually be pretty disappointed if the trivial means of killing mobs in EQ existed in any similar form in Pantheon. Mobs should kite you in Pantheon rather than you kiting them. I want to see mobs proactively dispelling or curing themselves if they have the appropriate spells. I want to see them looking to dispel the player to remove movement buffs.

    Soloing in Pantheon should be considerably harder than EQ, or Pantheon will have failed to innovate or improve upon the simple AI from 1999.


    I recall an interview with the EQ developers long long ago where they said EQ's AI used to work like that in the Alpha stages of the game.  It ended up making the game way too hard.  A computer AI simply has a much bigger advantage when it comes to strategy games like Chess than any human player can deal with.  I remember another interview with another dev who said that programming a good AI to do things like that is actually very easy, but they ended up scrapping it because it made the game too unfun.

    At any rate, I'd be surprised if the Pantheon developers went that far.  Odds are pretty good some of them are those same developers from that interview and thus already tried AI like that, before.
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 878
    Personally I hope, though don't really expect, that it will have a good range of content for all group sizes, and compositions... nothing like waiting 2 hours for X class (that has all the right attunements) just so you have a hope in hell of making any progress on anything.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,082

    acidblood said:

    Personally I hope, though don't really expect, that it will have a good range of content for all group sizes, and compositions... nothing like waiting 2 hours for X class (that has all the right attunements) just so you have a hope in hell of making any progress on anything.


     As they showed in the stream roles are spread over many classes. 3 healer classes but the healers can also cover roles like dps, debuff and buffer. This will be the same with the other classes, Rogue a dps class can also be the CCer. So in the end, so many combinations of classes to cover the required roles mean making teams will be easier then EQ1 days. This will become more apparent as we get more details on all the classes. 
  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    From what I understand, Pantheon is definitely group-content focused.. and while I myself do enjoy solo gameplay, I am not bothered by this idea at all.. If I want to play Pantheon, I will simply dust off my old grouping skills, make a tank, and play the game..

    I don't think every game should HAVE to hold content for all the styles we have become used to.. PvE games don't HAVE to have PvP.. PvP doesn't NEED PvE.. A group-oriented game doesn't NEED solo play.. But, a solo game NEEDS group content or its not an MMO.. Too often, games suffer for trying to implement something that just wasn't in design conception.. Does minimal solo content ostracize a portion of the MMO player-base? It can, yes.. Or it might inspire diehard solos, who never got to experience EQ-style grouping, to try it..

    If the devs want to put in content for solo players, and they know it can be done without hurting the vision, then more power to them.. Conversely, if they can't, then don't.. Claim your player-base and don't give in to pressure.. More games have been ruined by "generalist" thinking than I can count..

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