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Like It or Not, Destiny 2 is Good for the MMO Genre - Bill Murphy at MMORPG.com

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    You all missed the point. Whether it's an MMO or not doesn't matter. What matters is that it will inevitably bring more development into persistent online worlds (MMO). But keep arguing over the meaning of the acronym. We haven't done that enough these last 15 years. 
    I dont think that people dont realize that just because some mmo/rpgs have opens worlds, doesn't mean they aren't the same as a hub based game. FFXIV and not long ago with WoW, both acting the same way since you'd been spending 90% of the time in one spot waiting for instanced content.
  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565
    Instead of arguing over what is or isn't an MMORPG, we should be banding together about how sick we are of shitty games.

    We leap from release to release, each new game the savior. But 9/10 are utter rubbish. As a fandom, we deserve better.

    So again, it doesn't matter what requirements we individually hold for a game to be an MMO. What matters is that they stop being trash.

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

  • Lambon23Lambon23 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    You're arguing with children. This is an MMO. What they should be arguing about is why the hell do these games suck so much,
  • KilraneKilrane Member UncommonPosts: 322
    Instead of arguing over what is or isn't an MMORPG, we should be banding together about how sick we are of shitty games.

    We leap from release to release, each new game the savior. But 9/10 are utter rubbish. As a fandom, we deserve better.

    So again, it doesn't matter what requirements we individually hold for a game to be an MMO. What matters is that they stop being trash.
    Not everyone agrees that the first Destiny was a good game to begin with. I personally don't care if it's an MMO,  or not. I have interest in multi-player games as a whole overall. With that said,  the first game left a bad enough impression that I'm approaching this sequel with great caution. 

    Yes, the original Destiny has a huge following regardless of how I feel about it, but an under performing sequel could do more harm than good in the long haul. What if Bungie burns a lot of their fans of the first game? Your argument on the good for the future of large scale multi-player video games (which is exactly what you're referring to) becomes moot. 

    Instead of constantly writing hype train, fanboy articles/reviews, you and your publication should take a more neutral and critical stance for the good of the genre. Assisting the sale of false promises, even if not intended, does way more harm to the industry as a whole. 

    I'm not accusing you or your publication of intentional "sell out" status, because I generally don't believe publishers buy out the media like so many on these forums seem to believe. Why buy something which is given out for free? If you catch my drift.... 
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    acidblood said:
    Destiny is not an MMO for the simple fact that it doesn't feel like an MMO... All those other players in the shared hubs, and yet there is no way to interact with them; <snip>
    So just like all the other WoW players on servers you cannot interact with - and the only thing making WoW an mmo is the LFG tool?

    Houston we have .... !
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    The Mundanely Evil Wizard's gem of immortality was destroyed and shattered into shards; a copy of the world stored in each shard. Some day, it was said, the shards would be reunited. Now, thanks to the power of the megaserver that time has come.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Destiny 2 may be a good game, or not.
    It may be highly successful, or not.
    It may give hours of pleasure and fun to millions of people, or not.
    It may have a major influence on the design of games for years to come, or not.

    But it will not be good for the MMORPG genre, because it is not part of that genre. It may be bad for the genre, in that it lures players and cash elsewhere but not good.
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 878
    gervaise1 said:
    acidblood said:
    Destiny is not an MMO for the simple fact that it doesn't feel like an MMO... All those other players in the shared hubs, and yet there is no way to interact with them; <snip>
    So just like all the other WoW players on servers you cannot interact with - and the only thing making WoW an mmo is the LFG tool?

    Houston we have .... !
    ??? except in WoW you can type /w [playername] and actually talk to anyone on the same server... hell, even /say Hello! works for anyone around you... in Destiny you can't even do that much; all those other players around you, and it wouldn't matter if it was 10 or 10000, they are effecitively little more than moving wallpaper.

    And why does this matter? Because the main thing that seperates an MMO (i.e. 'Massively' multiplayer) game from other multiplayer games (such as Battlefield or Quake) is the ability for large groups of players to communicate and interact in a dynamic manner. Destiny totally lacks this.

    PS. Just because all people do in WoW is sit in one spot and do LFG runs doesn't mean that they can't go out into the world and interact with others (that's just the poor design of WoW)... and if WoW got ride of all it's chat channels and relied on third party services to create pre-made groups I wouldn't call it an MMO either.
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    edited April 2017
    Instead of arguing over what is or isn't an MMORPG, we should be banding together about how sick we are of shitty games.

    We leap from release to release, each new game the savior. But 9/10 are utter rubbish. As a fandom, we deserve better.

    So again, it doesn't matter what requirements we individually hold for a game to be an MMO. What matters is that they stop being trash.
    Destiny was hyped to be huge before release but instead it was another game that cobbled together elements of MMO's and while the hype made it gather huge sales the game at release was fairly mediocre.

    As an MMO it was really lacking, another game world with little to no player interaction.The multiplayer had 3-player dungeons and 6-player raids which means a lot smaller compared to older mmorpg. The roles were also limited.

    I find it interesting how you managed to talk about how we make each new game the savior in your own article where you pretty much make destiny 2 the savior of the MMO genre based on no information on the game beyond it being released on PC.

    We already had an MMO'ish shooter releasing on PC in the division. While it had good initial sales and decent reviews people abandoned it within a few months. I don't see how destiny 2 is going to be any different.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 3,109
    I'm happy that Destiny 2 is coming to the PC, that is definitely a good move for gamers in general. The first game was popular, despite being extremely repetitive, so opening up the sequel to a larger audience is great.

    However, I doubt it will be an MMO.

    It's all down to the definition of "massively multiplayer online". For me, I use simple English comprehension. Take a standard multiplayer online game. What is the largest average number of people? 128. There are loads of online shooters that allow 64v64 games to take place.

    So, pick a number that is massively bigger than 128 (I choose 500 as my minimum, but massively is subjective)

    Any game that allows massively more than 128 people to interact with one another, in the game world, at the same time, is an MMO. UO, AC, WoW, DAoC, LotRO, RIFT, Aion, WAR etc, all managed to make that happen and thus are MMOs. Destiny, The Division, GW etc do not, hence they are not MMOs. If you do start calling them MMOs, then you also need to start calling Quake, Unreal Tournament, COD and Battlefield games all MMOs too, which they clearly aren't.

    Destiny 2, we'll have to wait and see, but I seriously doubt it'll be an MMO.


    I know people don't like to argue about labels but I personally find them very important. I love MMOs for the MMO part. It is the one unique selling point of the genre - the ability to play in the same world at the same time as 1000s of other people. I love seeing other people running around the map. I love grouping up with them to take on content. I particularly love large scale pvp with 100s on each side, all fighting over different points on the same map.

    If you start mis-labeling products, firstly it's against the law (false advertising), but secondly you reduce the integrity of the genre. As the scope of what MMO means widens, so the term loses meaning and becomes useless. The genre then either has to create a new label for itself so it can retain it's identity, or else get consumed by other genres. If that happens, then fans from the other genres start placing demands for features on MMOs and at that point, the genre is dead.
  • achrius777achrius777 Member UncommonPosts: 20
    Ok so putting what the name MMO means as a definition (as Destiny does not fit it). Lets look at what an MMO needs to fit that bill.

    Quests: Quests imo have always been a major portion of every MMO design. "But desinty put "quests and bounties in" Not the same in the least bit. In almost every MMO even daily or repeatable quests drove the world or story in some way, randomly getting a mission to kill X amount of enemies in an area we were supposed to have cleared and secured ages ago does not drive the story or world. They did end up putting more actual quest material in Destiny later on but it was way to late at that point.

    Dungeons: Yes Destiny has strikes, yes they appeal to the story and have a point, So +1 for Desinty getting this portion right.

    Raids: Yep they got this point right as well, in a manner of speaking. as I will get to in a minute, Raids are supposed to be 1 part of endgame play for progression. not the ONLY way to truly progress.

    Endgame content: Every MMO that has no question on whether it is an MMO or not has a multitude of content at Endgame to progress your character aside from Raiding. For example: GW2 has Raids/Fractals(for those that don't know look it up, they are awesome)/ PvP ( that gives actual endgame worthy gear)/ Crafting/ Dungeons.

    Loot Progression: This is the one thing destiny is sorely lacking. Yes you get "loot" in lots of the content, but there is no balanced progression to it. Never in any MMO that I have played have I spent weeks getting random drops that I have to decipher to figure out that it is the same or worse that the pieces I already have.

    Crafting: Never have I seen an MMO, that is beyond question an MMO, that did not have a proper crafting system. Now as much as I hate crafting this is really an integral part of the MMO genre.

    Massive Player Interaction: I could list a book on what this means, but to put it simply, Interacting with players on a Massive scale beyond that of small party groups for instanced content. Im sorry but getting together in 1 or 2 social zones for 10min before queuing up for some instanced content is not good enough. The Ability to Trade, get together is massive groups for random shenanigans in a world environment, and honestly being able to chat with people that aren't in a party with you all are just a few examples of what Massive Player Interaction entails.

    Guilds: OK yes destiny has "Clans" but they dont mean anything, you have a clan of 60 people but only groups of 3-6 can do anything, there are no benefits of the Clans other than being able to bug people about grouping up with you. I know not all Guilds in MMO's give some sort of XP bonus or other such benefits, but there is more to a guild than running some dungeons or the Raid, the pure social interaction alone is a major plus. Something I feel Destiny's "Clans" were sorely lacking. Grant it I will give them a pass on the many console restrictions they have.

    Basically to top it off, does Destiny have some MMO Elements? Yes it does. Does it meet enough criteria to be called a true MMO? No it does not. Throw a social zone into the Borderlands games, does that make it an MMO now? I mean it has dungeons and Raids and quests and story and loot. The answer is no it does not.
  • Binny45Binny45 Member UncommonPosts: 522
    I won't be playing Destiny 2. The game can hardly be called an MMO. More like an FPS with other people running around. Little to no communication between people. Frankly there is little need for other people. The game quickly became boring.

    image

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    acidblood said:
    gervaise1 said:
    acidblood said:
    Destiny is not an MMO for the simple fact that it doesn't feel like an MMO... All those other players in the shared hubs, and yet there is no way to interact with them; <snip>
    So just like all the other WoW players on servers you cannot interact with - and the only thing making WoW an mmo is the LFG tool?

    Houston we have .... !
    ??? except in WoW you can type /w [playername] and actually talk to anyone on the same server... hell, even /say Hello! works for anyone around you... in Destiny you can't even do that much; all those other players around you, and it wouldn't matter if it was 10 or 10000, they are effecitively little more than moving wallpaper.

    And why does this matter? Because the main thing that seperates an MMO (i.e. 'Massively' multiplayer) game from other multiplayer games (such as Battlefield or Quake) is the ability for large groups of players to communicate and interact in a dynamic manner. Destiny totally lacks this.

    PS. Just because all people do in WoW is sit in one spot and do LFG runs doesn't mean that they can't go out into the world and interact with others (that's just the poor design of WoW)... and if WoW got ride of all it's chat channels and relied on third party services to create pre-made groups I wouldn't call it an MMO either.

    I think you're illustrating the point that's being made here masterfully. You've, essentially, boiled down the MMORPG to a singular feature, the ability to chat with others. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but what I will say is that I think that social features are definitely a huge contributor to the makeup of an MMORPG. This is also, possibly, the reason that MMORPGs have been in a decline (the shift of focus in MMOs from a social experience to a solo experience).

    However, it also serves to prove the article title. In fact, many MMORPG developers should take a good, hard look at Destiny, The Division, etc. because they do a lot of MMO features MUCH better than many MMOs do. Despite not having the social features, the focus of Destiny is to bring friends together. The barrier to entry for MMOs is the grind. Both Destiny and The Division blew this grind out of the water and Bungie, specifically, has said that their focus is creating a game which makes it easy for friends to pick up and play together. What a fucking concept, right? So instead of a 100+ hour grind just so you can play with your friends, you now have a game where you can pick up and play, start to finish, in like 20 hours and you're playing with your friends. There is still a grind for gear, but the experience itself isn't inaccessible to new players. So, yes, there is plenty that MMOs SHOULD and NEED to take note of from Destiny, and I'm sure Destiny 2. 


    Crazkanuk

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  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,342
    Some zelda for now, spring will be ESO and TSW Legends, september will be raiding in destiny?!! 


  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791
    Why would I play this over Warframe?
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 3,539

    Tiller said:



    @SBFord I actually did and he said it was an mmo so what exactly are you talking about? I'm not insulting anything, I'm stating the fact that it is not an mmo which the creators of the game have even said.






    MMORPG


    massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players.




    "mmorpg". Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. 31 Mar. 2017. <Dictionary.com http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mmorpg>.



    It fits the definition. Your personal opinion of what an MMO is means nothing.



    I'm so sure the person that authored that entry has ever played an MMO before.

    So to me it all depends on the gameplay. I understand this is a hub game, but when you leave the hub is it to play around in open world zones like Skyforge? Or is it all instanced like Guild Wars 1? Are you really playing with a "large number of other players"? Or are you playing with a few in an instance?
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • KilrainKilrain Member RarePosts: 1,180
    When I log into Destiny 2, will I run into hundreds or even thousands of others? Will I see my friends when I tell them to meet me at x location or will I have to switch servers/instances? These are the first 2 questions I ask when I see someone mention Massively Multiplayer Online and not just Multiplayer Online.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited April 2017
    How can something be good for the genre when we don't even know what IT is yet?

    Bungie avoided the word "MMO" like it was an STD before it released. Was THAT good for the genre?

    Now it's magically good for the genre after they've decided to grace us lowly PC plebs with the sequel. How about ask the developer some hard questions like "Why the change of heart on PC?" or maybe "Why were the letters MMO so fiercely avoided earlier?"

    MMORPG.com may not do the paid shill thing, but they sure AF fumble at quelling suspicions.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,441
    I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.

    Now we're on the same page. B)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence Member UncommonPosts: 565
    Leon1e said:
    Why would I play this over Warframe?
    because endgame D:

    Hype train -> Reality

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kyleran said:
    I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.

    Now we're on the same page. B)

    Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs. 

    So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it :) At least then I can selectively filter the list of people who I associate with. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,399
    Instead of arguing over what is or isn't an MMORPG, we should be banding together about how sick we are of shitty games.

    We leap from release to release, each new game the savior. But 9/10 are utter rubbish. As a fandom, we deserve better.

    So again, it doesn't matter what requirements we individually hold for a game to be an MMO. What matters is that they stop being trash.
    http://www.mmorpg.com/reviews

    I dunno what your talking about this looks like a party of 7's, 8's and 9's.



    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,441
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kyleran said:
    I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.

    Now we're on the same page. B)

    Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs. 

    So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it :) At least then I can selectively filter the list of people who I associate with. 
    I've never actually heard of this, not in my current game fortunately.  (no global chat is probably why)  


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • JinzouningenJinzouningen Member UncommonPosts: 39
    I'm just really burnt out on the hype machine of upcoming games. We hardly know anything about this game aside from its predecessor and its name.

    I played Destiny 1 beta on the ps3 and it was "meh" to me. I cant say its a bad game but I didnt care for it. That being said i have a long history of online gaming, so its pretty hard for me to be "wowed" by anything.

    I played UO for the years it was hot and i played Planetside the original when it had full servers. So I expect a lot.

    I dont care if someone wants to call Destiny or Dest. 2 an mmo I personally want to know if the PS4 version of destiny 2 will support a keyboard and mouse out the box?
    I can forget about any of these versions being cross platform. Every ones stingy and wants to keep their players on their platforms even though that diminishes the player experience. Heck i played Quake 3 arena on my sega dreamcast against quake 3 players on the pc. Huge fun.

    Anyway. thats my deal. I dont preorder because imo thats just stupid. I was stupid for preordering SWTOR and i learned my darn lesson. Im not going to miss out on anything by waiting till launch day and seeing what people playing it live are saying.

    I saved my bro in law from the misery that is the No Mans Sky preorder.

    Other stuff to play. Hype is just that hot air. If hype had substance every kid and his parents would be playing SWTOR non stop. most hyped piece of crap. So much newer than World of Warcraft but plays and looks like its 10 years older.
  • YumeTsukaiYumeTsukai Member UncommonPosts: 40
    Ha ha ha... Destiny is an MMO... HA HA HA! Hilarious! Best pre-April fools' article!

    Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it :)

    Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!! =)

    Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!

    Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
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