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Like It or Not, Destiny 2 is Good for the MMO Genre - Bill Murphy at MMORPG.com

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  • ComanComan Member UncommonPosts: 2,173
    Did we not hear the same type of hype with the first version? Fool me once.....
  • Shana77Shana77 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    I'm normally a PC gamer and just discovered Destiny a few months ago. Whatever you call it, MMOFPS, ARPGFPS or whatever, one thing to me is really clear. PC gamers have really missed out on a very solid and unique experience. A mix of some sorts between Diablo and MMO's featuring the awesome combat and gameplay of the Halo series.

    So yeah if you insist any game that deviates more then a little bit from classic Everquest 1 should be burned at the stake you may not like Destiny 2 coming to PC, but everyone else should smile and rejoice, because you are about the discover the joys of being a guardian!
  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Member RarePosts: 1,234
    Destiny has the potential to become one of the greatest, I think there were mistakes in 1 made, hopefully that's why instead of launching a massive expansion, they decided to launch an entirely new game, launching on pc makes the mmo part more relevant and a triple a mom fps with massive upside is definitely good for the genre. A word of caution though, if it flops it can be devastating to the genre
  • Shana77Shana77 Member UncommonPosts: 290

    Wizardry said:

    So we will curb the many complaints about Destiny 1 and hide that behind an argument weather it is mmo or not?



    There is a LOT that goes into game design,it takes a LOT of work to make it really good,so i am not about to start praising any developer until i see what they can do.

    To lay claim Destiny 2 is good for the industry before it is even out is like saying Wow was good for the industry even though it kickstarted nothing but clone after clone after clone.



    It takes a lot of effort to make a game, a JOURNEY,to create lots of systems and scripts the entire way.

    So let's WAIT and see if they can build a game as good as they advertise.



    Complaints about Destiny 1 are mainly about the original game as it was launched. With the many expansions and patches, particularly the taken king, I'd argue the game had a FF14 style turnaround.
    Not to say it's perfect but it's certainly easily the best online shooter ever.

    Is it an MMO? Propbably not though it often feels like an mmo when you meet strangers in your adventuring or when you're doing raids with your clan. In many ways it's a mix of an ARPG like Diablo, the Halo series and a dash of MMO here and there.
  • KalebGraysonKalebGrayson Member RarePosts: 430
    Shana77 said:
    I'm normally a PC gamer and just discovered Destiny a few months ago. Whatever you call it, MMOFPS, ARPGFPS or whatever, one thing to me is really clear. PC gamers have really missed out on a very solid and unique experience. A mix of some sorts between Diablo and MMO's featuring the awesome combat and gameplay of the Halo series.

    So yeah if you insist any game that deviates more then a little bit from classic Everquest 1 should be burned at the stake you may not like Destiny 2 coming to PC, but everyone else should smile and rejoice, because you are about the discover the joys of being a guardian!

    My little brother loved Destiny and he's really stoked for Destiny 2.  We live pretty far apart so I might get this game to spend more time with him.  He swears by Destiny, so I'm going to give it a shot (pun intended).
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,733
    Bright spot heh? If AAA means having to deal with instanced lobby gaming, then no thank you, I'll pass and wait for a good indie MMORPG.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,733

    CrazKanuk said:


    Kyleran said:


    Torval said:
    The phrase "massively multiplayer" in that definition is defined as "interacting with a large number of players". That is clearly defined according to Random House. That happens in the hubs in the case of Destiny and GW.

    The anecdotal examples you provide in the body of your post don't contradict that definition even if you choose to imply those numbers mean something else.

    You haven't proven or more importantly disproven the premise that the definition clearly defines massively multiplayer clearly.



    masterful stroke of "Blackwhite"

    Ignore the clear examples of almost every game in the genre created in the first 10 years or more of it's history and point to a model first made popular in 2005 by GW1 who's creators clearly labeled it a CORPG because they understood what they had built with their "lobby" game.

    Nothing anecdotal about the evidence in any way.





    I'm not saying Destiny is or is not an MMO, BUT @Torval has a valid point, too. Also, if we're being fair, I'm not even sure how many players are supported in modern MMOs. Aren't games like ESO, WS, WoW, etc. broken down into instances, zones, shards, etc. all convening in hubs? I could be wrong, that's an actual literal question. 

    From a philosophical question, If Destiny said they supported 1000 players per zone and then load balanced their servers to never put more than 16 per zone, would that make them an MMO? I think it's more than players supported too. 



    Zones are persistent and shared by all gamers, instances are solo / group only, reducing the MMO to MO. The massively multiple player to player interaction in a virtual world is greatly reduced in a game with one persistent hub and instances for the rest of the content. The differences in gameplay and player experience of the virtual environment between a game like GW1 and Destiny versus WoW or EQ are vast.

    I don't want games like Destiny to be painted as the new kind of MMO as that diminishes the meaning of the term as well as sets a precedent to the industry to stop catering to the true MMO audience.

    image
  • MyriaMyria Member UncommonPosts: 699
    laserit said:
    What do you want? Would you rather have cash shops? Me, I want content, I don't want a shopping mall. IMHO A business model that makes it money from selling gameplay is much better than one that makes its money selling pixel pants.
    Destiny 1 has a cash shop called "Eververse".

    While certainly not as badly handled as many games, Destiny's in-game "events" have tended to turn into little more than an attempt to sell random loot boxes and, frankly the existence of a cash shop in a game that charged for DLC that, at least for the first couple, were little more than patches attempting to fix the lack of content and terrible loot systems (which, to be fair, they did improve greatly over time), was more than a tad insulting to the playerbase.

    Presumably Destiny 2 will have a cash shop as well.
  • skeaserskeaser Member RarePosts: 4,129
    Unless I missed something, there are 0 details about the game. Isn't this a bit premature?
    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • strykr619strykr619 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    LOL if this is an MMO then a Mini-van now is a drag car because it has mickey tompson slicks and an aggressive profile.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 8,560
    This genre is so desperate for anything that if more than one person can play it its considered a MMO
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,401
    TimEisen said:

    Wizardry said:

    So we will curb the many complaints about Destiny 1 and hide that behind an argument weather it is mmo or not?



    There is a LOT that goes into game design,it takes a LOT of work to make it really good,so i am not about to start praising any developer until i see what they can do.

    To lay claim Destiny 2 is good for the industry before it is even out is like saying Wow was good for the industry even though it kickstarted nothing but clone after clone after clone.



    It takes a lot of effort to make a game, a JOURNEY,to create lots of systems and scripts the entire way.

    So let's WAIT and see if they can build a game as good as they advertise.



    Ok let's try this angle, mmo sites are starving. Any sort of MMO that can get some clicks is huge for us right now. IMO Destiny was a major let down but it has a following and generates clicks so i welcome Destiny 2. Besides it's not like we have a lot of non crowd funded options right now.
    Awesome, honest and spot on answer Tim, keeping the lights on here is a terrific reason to cover it.

    Fact its coming to the PC means its good for players who prefer the platform.

    But as its not an MMO except only under the most extreme twisting of the term don't make the claim it's good for the genre.

    As is clear from this thread, you are just confusing people.  Soon they won't have any idea what the term actually means.

    Weird

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,401
    Renoaku said:
    SirBalin said:
    Myria said:
    SirBalin said:
    Or is it just zones for pvp, or no pvp?
    Destiny 1 has arena PvP only. For reasons that escape me, it's extremely popular.

    I would be amazed if Destiny 2 did things any differently.
    That's what I'm wondering when I hear talk of, "mmo."  Will this game now have open world pvp, if so...I'm so all freaking in, the warmonger will return for Bill!
    Any games with open world pvp that don't suck?

    Besides Dark Fall?
    EVE.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241





    dude Massively had people calling Call of Duty and any other online game "MMOS" as well.. that term has lost its meaning and now is just a marketing PR tactic.

    I told you all here years ago we should abandon the term MMO all together. no more MMO-RPG, or MMO-FPS, or MMO-anything. Just abandon that term and create a new term to replace the old. Let Developers and Marketers continue to use the term which lost its meaning.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241

    garrett said:

    Destiny is 100% an MMO and was designed that way from the beginning. It is instanced out purposefully to fit players so you are never alone. Hosting off the central hub system where players interacted and having PvP separated out into its own arena zones...honestly, the game is more MMO than you realize. Just because it is not one giant open world, it hosts large groups of players in zones throughout the game. Lots of MMOs have gone this route over the years as it is just easier to manage your player base and not have latency issues. Console game play had to be fast paced and smooth, so breaking it out made sense. Destiny and Destiny 2 are shooter MMOs. All Bungie said was they did not want the game categorized into one genre.



    Wait so is 7 Days to Die a MMO as well using your logic?

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241

    Xiaoki said:

    Why are people so hung up on labels?



    Some people around here spend so much time and effort trying to define what it and what isnt an MMO I dont think they actually play them anymore.



    Whether its a Persistent Online Shooter or a MMORPG doesnt matter. What matters is the people playing it and there will be overlap with shooter players and MMO players with a game like Destiny.



    But, Destiny 1 was very popular despite the many many flaws it launched with. If Bungie can take the opportunity afforded them with a sequel to outright change some of the more problematic systems for the better then Destiny 2 could firmly entrench itself as a major force among MMO players.



    well because we as consumers use labels to identify products. Calling NBA2k17 a fighting game, could lead somebody to buy it trying to get a Shaqfu fighting game. But hey, it was mislabeled and caused damage to consumers that didnt know better. Some of us here are experienced to know the differences, but when new games come out with little info other than the stuff from media outlets, and those media outlets are calling NBA2k17 a fighting game, and we want to new fighting game, what results do you expect to get?

    radical example, but still the point still stands. I want a MMOFPS, but all the MMOsites are telling me Call of Duty Advance World Warfare 2, is a MMO and I get it, I will be disappointed because I got a false advertised product. Wasted my time and money.

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited April 2017
    Iselin said:
    MMO is so 2000. It's a shared world FPS.... get with the program SWRPG.COM :)
    You realize how many folks would click on the link to the SWRPG.COM homepage and be utterly disappointed when it wasn't an official site for a new Star Wars RPG??  :p

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241


    Iselin said:


    Distopia said:


    Xiaoki said:

    Why are people so hung up on labels?



    Some people around here spend so much time and effort trying to define what it and what isnt an MMO I dont think they actually play them anymore.



    Whether its a Persistent Online Shooter or a MMORPG doesnt matter. What matters is the people playing it and there will be overlap with shooter players and MMO players with a game like Destiny.



    But, Destiny 1 was very popular despite the many many flaws it launched with. If Bungie can take the opportunity afforded them with a sequel to outright change some of the more problematic systems for the better then Destiny 2 could firmly entrench itself as a major force among MMO players.


    Agreed, but in the end it's hipsters being hipsters. There's always a subset of an audience who thinks they're the authority on all aspects of their interest, when in the end it's just about them being the authority (they were there first in their minds so they own it).............. It's worthless to engage such people really... 


    Maybe to some it's that but labels, as descriptive shorthand are only useful when your audience agrees that you're both talking about the same thing.

    I seriously think that Funcom had a stroke of genius when they decided to call their Secret World relaunch a "shared world RPG." It's a much more inclusive and descriptive label that sidesteps all the inevitable discussion about whether an old label is being used in the old fashioned or new way.

    I think Shared World is a much better label for a lot of these games than MMO ever was... and then we can just argue about how RPGish the games are :)



    I had a better way to call them.

    Hard Cap Multiplayer Online Game,

    and

    Soft Cap Multiplayer Online Games


    Since all multiplayer games, MMO or not, have some kind of cap on the number of players, some games just have a more flexible number of players in the same gameplay without breaking the design. Those are what I call Soft Caps.

    Basketball for instance has a hard cap of 10 players at a time. putting 15 players in the game suddenly would break the mechanics. Thats why this is a Hard-Cap multiplayer game.
    Games like Call of Duty has a hard cap fixed number of players. Destiny has a hard cap fixed number of players. Guild Wars 1 had a fixed number of players.

    World of Warcraft doesnt have fixed numbers of players except in instances such as Raid Dungeons, and PvP. The World is fully open to all the players to interact with each other until the soft cap is reached and effect stability.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241

    Tiller said:



    @SBFord I actually did and he said it was an mmo so what exactly are you talking about? I'm not insulting anything, I'm stating the fact that it is not an mmo which the creators of the game have even said.






    MMORPG


    massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players.




    "mmorpg". Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. 31 Mar. 2017. <Dictionary.com http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mmorpg>.



    It fits the definition. Your personal opinion of what an MMO is means nothing.



    So Diablo 2 is a MMO?
    Ark a MMO?

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,241

    CrazKanuk said:


    Kyleran said:


    Torval said:
    The phrase "massively multiplayer" in that definition is defined as "interacting with a large number of players". That is clearly defined according to Random House. That happens in the hubs in the case of Destiny and GW.

    The anecdotal examples you provide in the body of your post don't contradict that definition even if you choose to imply those numbers mean something else.

    You haven't proven or more importantly disproven the premise that the definition clearly defines massively multiplayer clearly.



    masterful stroke of "Blackwhite"

    Ignore the clear examples of almost every game in the genre created in the first 10 years or more of it's history and point to a model first made popular in 2005 by GW1 who's creators clearly labeled it a CORPG because they understood what they had built with their "lobby" game.

    Nothing anecdotal about the evidence in any way.





    I'm not saying Destiny is or is not an MMO, BUT @Torval has a valid point, too. Also, if we're being fair, I'm not even sure how many players are supported in modern MMOs. Aren't games like ESO, WS, WoW, etc. broken down into instances, zones, shards, etc. all convening in hubs? I could be wrong, that's an actual literal question. 

    From a philosophical question, If Destiny said they supported 1000 players per zone and then load balanced their servers to never put more than 16 per zone, would that make them an MMO? I think it's more than players supported too. 



    WoW back when I played it had "Zones", same as the country of the USA has different states, all linked together to form a large body of land that you can travel freely between. So zones in WoW were not instances. They were segments of the game world. The world itself was still persistent and seamless.

    image

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,436
    CrazKanuk said:
    I'm not saying Destiny is or is not an MMO, BUT Torval has a valid point, too. Also, if we're being fair, I'm not even sure how many players are supported in modern MMOs. Aren't games like ESO, WS, WoW, etc. broken down into instances, zones, shards, etc. all convening in hubs? I could be wrong, that's an actual literal question. 

    From a philosophical question, If Destiny said they supported 1000 players per zone and then load balanced their servers to never put more than 16 per zone, would that make them an MMO? I think it's more than players supported too.
    Zones are persistent and shared by all gamers, instances are solo / group only, reducing the MMO to MO. The massively multiple player to player interaction in a virtual world is greatly reduced in a game with one persistent hub and instances for the rest of the content. The differences in gameplay and player experience of the virtual environment between a game like GW1 and Destiny versus WoW or EQ are vast.

    I don't want games like Destiny to be painted as the new kind of MMO as that diminishes the meaning of the term as well as sets a precedent to the industry to stop catering to the true MMO audience.
    Time. Things change, mature, age, evolve. You can't stop that (outside of a spiritual discussion about time and space -- and we won't go there).

    We, as people, can filter criteria and compartmentalize down to a fine grained detail. Is anyone confusing WoW with Destiny? Although you could argue that the open world in most MMOs is just a larger insignificant lobby for instanced dungeons and raids.

    Maybe MMOs are just big lobbies. I guess size matters more to some than others. ;)
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,436
    Tiller said:

    MMORPG

    massively multiplayer online role-playing game: any story-driven online video game in which a player, taking on the persona of a character in a virtual or fantasy world, interacts with a large number of other players.

    "mmorpg". Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. 31 Mar. 2017. <Dictionary.com http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mmorpg>.

    It fits the definition. Your personal opinion of what an MMO is means nothing.
    So Diablo 2 is a MMO?
    Ark a MMO?
    Does your MMO have 30M players? By comparison most MMORPG don't seem that massive.

    WoW isn't seamless like you claim. Any one of those "states" (servers) could go offline or have connectivity problems. There is a seam between those two servers just like there is a seam between two states called "the state line". At any time either state can stop traffic at their line just like server issues can. They appear seamless and fool you into thinking so, as an experience, but they're not.

    Later on WoW introduced phasing to deal with story continuity issues that a "seamless" static world creates and to help further balance server load. That means they're limiting people you see and interact with based on "criteria" because that ends up being a better experience than crudely shoving people all in the same room and waving a flag called "seamless".
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KilraneKilrane Member UncommonPosts: 322
    Renoaku said:
    Well it's on PC, I was looking at it but does this game use Denuvo?
    I doubt anyone can answer that just yet. Probably won't get full details on anti-cheat software they plan to use till close to launch. 
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    Looter shooters can be fun with friends but I prefer a solid singleplayer shooter experience over the bullet spongy type bosses you get in looter shooters.

    The conversation about whether destiny and wow is the same genre is fairly pointless, the gameplay isn't the same and it won't make any difference to the mmorpg genre if destiny 2 is successful.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,957
    "I know many of you hate the idea of Destiny being considered an MMO. It is one. Even Bungie admits it without outright saying it by including us in all of their media invites."

    I don't care what genre people think Destiny fits into, but this statement is asinine. This hasn't been an MMO exclusive site for quite a while now. You cover Overwatch, LoL, Mass Effect, and plenty of single player games. Inviting you to their press events means absolutely jack shit about what genre Bungie considers their game to be.

    A couple of years ago, you may have had a point. Today, it just looks foolish and pretentious, and this is coming from somebody who has defended (for the most part) the decision to broaden the spectrum of games covered here.

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

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