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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited March 2017
    Adjuvant1 said:
    That only happens when you clown the truths into inanity. Won't you stop?
    You're doing free advertisement for the game. The more crazy there is, the more wild and bold claims of negativity towards this game and its developers there is...

    The biggest will be the gap people will notice, as the game continues to develop and releasing updates. This only captivates interest because it makes unaware people think "is this really as bad as he says it is?" and go check things by themselves and make their own conclusions. ;)

    In truth, you're helping CIG. You'll see.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    CrazKanuk said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    It's false advertisement, and somehow they get away with it in the vague method they convey it. I tried to explain that here...
    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen/p1

    ...but all I got was "HOW DARE YOU SLIGHT A FAN FOR MAKING A VIDEO!!!!11!1one!1!!"

    "What, you thought SQ42 was going to be released in Feb '16? You fool! No one thought that!"
    Why, yes, yes some people did. Some people thought SM would be available in late spring '15. They were led to believe these things (months not years) intentionally to garner profit for the company.

    Just like how the company made money from the statement something to the effect of "3.0 by the end of the year".

    But all you ever hear from the revisionists is "You didn't listen properly!"

    I wasn't slighting the guy for the video, I told him it was good. The issue was that, while he was telling the absolute truth the way it was being pumped into his head, all he was doing was parroting false advertisement. Kinda like what Erillion does, his statements are truthful, from the spun, revisionist gaslighting that's crapped out by CIG, which is the false ad.

    Is that Erillion's "fault"? no, I guess not, and it's not Shodanas' fault, or CrazKanuk's fault, or Max's fault. But in the end, from the source, it's not truthful and it's not good.

    Stop giving CIG money. Tell them to finish with what they have.

    You still haven't answered to why this is ok for some, but it's criminal when SC does it? I mean, FUCK! ED got people to buy into a crowdfunding campaign, shipped them an incomplete game and then made them spend more money to get the additional features, lol. Crickets...... ED even sells you an expansion (commanders, in beta) and then tells you that one of the major features might not even be released with it, lol. Again, if you're REALLY wanting me to, I'll compile a list of games that have issued significant delays. It's not a small list. However, if THAT would satisfy you, I can do it. Just say the word. 

    I guess what I'm asking for is what you're looking for exactly. With the latest Gamestar article, you get some insight into delays. Fuck, that even admits there were delays!! Revisionist or not, CIG is actually saying things were delayed. I can definitely understand your point, but I've given you context and reasoning as to why this might happen, if you were somehow unfamiliar with the industry, and you have just ignored my posts up until now. So what are you wanting exactly?

    If you're now wondering what I want, feel free to enlighten me as to how this is not a common industry issue. I know it is because I can google and find 10, 50, 100 quotes from devs talking about delays, how they're common and why they're common. 
    I'm not replying to you because there's no answer to "many do it, why can't we".

    This is a SC discussion in a SC forum on a gaming website. What matters in this thread is that CIG does this, and it's wrong.

    Tell CIG you want a finished product before you will give them any more money. Simple.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Adjuvant1 said:
    Distopia said:

    What they're doing is quite obvious IMO, they're purposefully undershooting the target dates to get people to spend now, a lot of these projects do this. As it's easier to get people to spend if they think they'll see the return "soon"...

    Call it lying or whatever, all they have to do is say "it's been delayed" and in the software/games world, that's all that's needed more or less to get away with it. 








    I have, and will continue to call it "lying". I don't think I or anyone else here really just tricked you for calling it what it is.

    People need to be aware CIG lies before they give CIG money. They do it routinely, they've been doing it for years. Every uninitiated person who comes across the project deserves to be armed with this information.

    Do you or do you not agree?

    I think we've had a similar conversation before. This time around you're more on the fence. Won't you cross over and help?
    Sure I agree with that, I just don't come across many that I feel need it said to them, as I think most get it (at least in these parts), as the crowd funding market in general is rife with this type of stuff. 

    As for joining in on this type of thing, I have to emphasize what i just said. I think it falls on deaf ears around here, as most understand when we're likely if ever going to see this as a full blown game, and they're going to spend regardless of what anyone says. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993

    One sure FACT, This thread will end up 15 - 20 pages long and nothing will have changed. The project will continue. As I said in another thread, outside this board, no cares. It's as if we're all stuck in a loop. Same questions, same answers, same speeches we've had for the past 4 years. 
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited March 2017
    Distopia said:
    I think it falls on deaf ears around here, as most understand when we're likely if ever going to see this as a full blown game, and they're going to spend regardless of what anyone says. 
    The majority of the backers of this game is very well aware SC is not to expect anytime soon as a full blown game. Dates are dates, and when they are labeled with "we hope" or even with claims as "don't hold me to this date", people should know what to expect.

    So I think is at least the majority of the people who back into crowdfunding and/or early access. If people want a released game they should buy a released game, that's all.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    At this point, both extreme sides of this CIG struggle need to call it quits. Time to let the game live or die.

    If you're a CIGtologist go pray, drink your kool-aid and be happy.
    If you're a former CIGtologist, time to go make a new life and be happy away from the cult.

    People in the middle really don't care anymore. If the game launches and it's good people will play it, if it's bad they won't. If it doesn't launch we'll all get a good chuckle at the worst debacle in the history of gaming. Nobody gets bonuses for calling the right outcome unless you guys care to make a wager. THAT would actually be interesting since you're all so "invested".
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited March 2017
    FlyByKnight said:
    Nobody gets bonuses for calling the right outcome unless you guys care to make a wager. THAT would actually be interesting since you're all so "invested".
    Not a bad idea. It would be interesting to see how far would both sides be willing to go to defend their belief in the success or failure of Star Citizen.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Herase said:

    One sure FACT, This thread will end up 15 - 20 pages long and nothing will have changed. The project will continue. As I said in another thread, outside this board, no cares. It's as if we're all stuck in a loop. Same questions, same answers, same speeches we've had for the past 4 years. 

    I fully agree. Imagine for a second how these threads would go if denialists didn't go to the lengths that they do. We'd probably have 10 or 20 posts grumbling about missed ETAs and then it would fizzle right out.

    Instead we get this....

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    Herase said:

    One sure FACT, This thread will end up 15 - 20 pages long and nothing will have changed. The project will continue. As I said in another thread, outside this board, no cares. It's as if we're all stuck in a loop. Same questions, same answers, same speeches we've had for the past 4 years. 

    I fully agree. Imagine for a second how these threads would go if denialists didn't go to the lengths that they do. We'd probably have 10 or 20 posts grumbling about missed ETAs and then it would fizzle right out.

    Instead we get this....

    But isn't THIS what you wanted?


    giphy.gif 1001.3K

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • unfilteredJWunfilteredJW Member UncommonPosts: 339
    If I do, will it interrupt your hate boner at all?

    I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.

    Current: Dragonrealms

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,000
    edited March 2017
    Just presented the game to a ~300 crow of computer science freshman's and got amazing return in terms of recruits and broke the chart getting all the ships and bonus! O.o



    To celebrate also pledged for a couple of upgrades:

    Avenger Stalker »» Cutlass Black

    Misc Reliant LTI »» Freelancer

    Thanks Obama Free Flight !



  • nimander99nimander99 Member UncommonPosts: 288

    Been watching this cluster f from the very start. Keep wondering if they are actually going to release a game. Some of the footage looks promising, like the youtube video where the guy flys to a star for 27 hours (timelapsed) now that's space.

    Its has promise, but will it ever actually be released? Idk, Idc, they wont get any $ from me till they have a completed product for sale.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Adjuvant1 said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    It's false advertisement, and somehow they get away with it in the vague method they convey it. I tried to explain that here...
    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen/p1

    ...but all I got was "HOW DARE YOU SLIGHT A FAN FOR MAKING A VIDEO!!!!11!1one!1!!"

    "What, you thought SQ42 was going to be released in Feb '16? You fool! No one thought that!"
    Why, yes, yes some people did. Some people thought SM would be available in late spring '15. They were led to believe these things (months not years) intentionally to garner profit for the company.

    Just like how the company made money from the statement something to the effect of "3.0 by the end of the year".

    But all you ever hear from the revisionists is "You didn't listen properly!"

    I wasn't slighting the guy for the video, I told him it was good. The issue was that, while he was telling the absolute truth the way it was being pumped into his head, all he was doing was parroting false advertisement. Kinda like what Erillion does, his statements are truthful, from the spun, revisionist gaslighting that's crapped out by CIG, which is the false ad.

    Is that Erillion's "fault"? no, I guess not, and it's not Shodanas' fault, or CrazKanuk's fault, or Max's fault. But in the end, from the source, it's not truthful and it's not good.

    Stop giving CIG money. Tell them to finish with what they have.

    You still haven't answered to why this is ok for some, but it's criminal when SC does it? I mean, FUCK! ED got people to buy into a crowdfunding campaign, shipped them an incomplete game and then made them spend more money to get the additional features, lol. Crickets...... ED even sells you an expansion (commanders, in beta) and then tells you that one of the major features might not even be released with it, lol. Again, if you're REALLY wanting me to, I'll compile a list of games that have issued significant delays. It's not a small list. However, if THAT would satisfy you, I can do it. Just say the word. 

    I guess what I'm asking for is what you're looking for exactly. With the latest Gamestar article, you get some insight into delays. Fuck, that even admits there were delays!! Revisionist or not, CIG is actually saying things were delayed. I can definitely understand your point, but I've given you context and reasoning as to why this might happen, if you were somehow unfamiliar with the industry, and you have just ignored my posts up until now. So what are you wanting exactly?

    If you're now wondering what I want, feel free to enlighten me as to how this is not a common industry issue. I know it is because I can google and find 10, 50, 100 quotes from devs talking about delays, how they're common and why they're common. 
    I'm not replying to you because there's no answer to "many do it, why can't we".

    This is a SC discussion in a SC forum on a gaming website. What matters in this thread is that CIG does this, and it's wrong.

    Tell CIG you want a finished product before you will give them any more money. Simple.

    I totally agree!! And I think that spending crazy amounts of money on virtual items is crazy to begin with. However, I got my package for $20, so there's great value in it for me. If someone can find similar value, then go for it. However, I would never advise someone to back something that isn't already released and reviewed unless they felt like they were getting good value for their money. However, that's subjective. 

    What you're claiming is a "many do it, why can't we" argument is called context. That means that chastising one company and praising others for similar practices makes you a hypocrite or, at very least, destroys your credibility. Like I said, I have no problem with you saying stuff like, "I wouldn't give these guys another dime because of all the delays in the past. Plus they've got enough money!" yada yada. However, when you are, essentially, eluding that their practices are criminal in some way, that's a pretty serious accusation for something that is pretty normal when placed in the CONTEXT of the industry. 

    Without context, you can make things seem much worse than what they are. For instance, did you know that Kinder Eggs (candy) are one of the most dangerous things ever. If you don't believe me, you can actually be arrested for attempting to bring them over the US border and can be fined $2500 per egg! I find it sad that US children are missing out on a childhood. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    First, yes, I am a backer. I've got a whole $20 tied up in this game. 

    /*
    snip
    */

    A. But that is not a fact. Just because something happened in your situation does not mean the same is happening in a totally separate situation.
    No I am not claiming there has been no gameplay devleopment, does this even need to be stated?
    I am showing a video of Brian Chambers talking about stuff for 3.0 and he mentions it within that context which is why it's relevant.

    B. LOL you didn't "shatter" my point. Haha.
    No I don't think they were going to skip something that was the main bullet point for 3.0, nor were they going to skip the Room System which is deemed as being essential for 3.0. It would be far more likely that they have to delay the whole thing which is what we are seeing now. 

    C. You clearly do otherwise you wouldn't be running this diatribe and making repeated snipes about objectivity. Virtually everytime you address any of my posts you take this approach and yet now you're claiming all opinions are fair? 

    D. See the thing is I have no problem being called critical, overly critical even because admittedly I am very critical. But doomsaying is just a stupid thing to say because that would only be hurting myself due to me having money involved in this project.

    Anyway, this is getting marvelously off topic.


    A. *sigh* No, just because something happened one way in my situation doesn't mean that's what's happening here. HOWEVER!! It also doesn't mean it's happening the way that you say it is. I don't know why that's so difficult to understand. 

    Yes, Brian Chambers DOES mention that they are creating a gameplay TEAM. By process of elimination, that would mean that prior to now gameplay design was being performed by software developers. It is relevant that he's talking about a gameplay team, though, because hopefully it means that the gameplay won't suck. I used to work with this crazy Russian (sorry Ukrainian) developer who decided he knew best how people would use a system. No..... just no..... He's actually one of the reasons you'll commonly see me state on here that you never let developers talk to people.

    B. Honestly, I only have so many hours in a day and I have mostly resigned myself to the fact that I'm not going to convince you, or @Adjuvant1 of anything other than you think. So, being that I'm a conscientious observer, I felt like someone at least needed to provide something that people who are maybe trying to make a purchase decision might find useful in making an objective decision.

    C.  All opinions are fair. Not all opinions are right. Some opinions even border on being bat-shit crazy. There is a big difference between having an opinion and being objective. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one! Do I feel it's necessary to call out people who are being bat-shit crazy? Maybe. I've done it in other threads too. Go look. Nothing grinds my gears more than people trying to pass of fiction as fact, though. So, yeah, I'll do my best to interject and be a white knight or an Internet Crusader or whatever else you'd call me. Honestly, I'd like to think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I'm going to change someone's mind or actually help them think logically about a situation. I'm probably a fucking idiot for thinking that, though. My biggest problem is that I should know, and do know, to just stay the fuck away from this shit because it's absolutely pointless, but here I am, like Goldmember eating my fucking scabs. 

    D. I don't know if you can be critical without objectivity, can you? Being critical expressly involves being analytical or involves some level of evaluation, which would lend one to believe that there is some level of objectivity. After all, there is a reason they call people "Critics". Are you assuming that they don't have some method of reviewing things that are metric-based? Or based on their breadth of knowledge of similar things? Foods, wines, games, movies, whatever! 

    Honestly, saying you're invested doesn't really mean anything. Derek Smart was invested at one point, too. Actually, there are people who simply bought in just to issue refunds. I'm not saying you're at that extreme a level, I'm just saying that there is no correlation between being financially-invested in the project and being objective. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Anyone with any sense realized SC was something between a cult and a ponzi scheme some time ago, or the worst managed game effort in history: CIG has taken in $140 mil+, the game is more than 2 years behind schedule and full release is no where in sight. And yet they keep trying to find new suckers to keep buying packages to continue to fund development that should have been paid for 3 time over. The only reasonable response now is for the game to be released in good shape and then ask people for even more money. Where's the finished game?
    Arclan
  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 564
    Burntvet said:
    Anyone with any sense realized SC was something between a cult and a ponzi scheme some time ago, or the worst managed game effort in history: CIG has taken in $140 mil+, the game is more than 2 years behind schedule and full release is no where in sight. And yet they keep trying to find new suckers to keep buying packages to continue to fund development that should have been paid for 3 time over. The only reasonable response now is for the game to be released in good shape and then ask people for even more money. Where's the finished game?
    Since the devs are allegedly in the process of figuring out a netcode, patcher, what kind of game mechanics they'll implement with the engine they have, you could say it's currently in pre-alpha.
  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    There will be a case study written about this when it is all over.  Its 50/50 whether it will be a Marketing or Criminology case study through at this point. Maybe even alt Religion 
    Arclan
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Maybe some people don't really know how MMO's work.  They say a lot in the planning stage which is taken as gospel by a lot of people.  But a game can have major changes during it's development stages and might end up being completely different then the original plan.  

    The devs don't even know how the game will really be because they are not gods who can do exactly what they say they will.  They will run into unforeseen problems and have to come up with unforeseen solutions. Lots of mistakes will be made and lots of changes will be made both large and small.  

    About the game not delivering updates on time.  It's pretty much never delivered on time which is why some people are projecting a 2022 launch date.  Maybe, maybe not.  Only time will tell.

    I have seen a lot of complaints in the forums lately and and a lot of anti-SC videos popping up.  The last video I saw made by CIG, roughly suggested that you could already land on planets and that they were working on even more planets to land on.  Further on they stated they were still in alpha and were working on a lot of things.  With that alone I could see how people might rush to the game thinking it looked like the slick videos they produce and find out a lot of things are yet to be.

    People were also complaining that the store in which you buy upgrade items for your ship has several items in it that no longer work, yet people won't know this until they buy one or do a lot of research on the forums.

    Being a first time project, new company, new teams working together for the first time, I'm not really surprised by all the trials and errors and just plan dropping stuff without a word. But hope they will one day get things to come together at least  close to their plans.




    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited March 2017
    Maybe some people don't really know how MMO's work.  They say a lot in the planning stage which is taken as gospel by a lot of people.  But a game can have major changes during it's development stages and might end up being completely different then the original plan.  

    The devs don't even know how the game will really be because they are not gods who can do exactly what they say they will.  They will run into unforeseen problems and have to come up with unforeseen solutions. Lots of mistakes will be made and lots of changes will be made both large and small. 


    All the more reason for them to be careful with what they say and how they say it.  Personally I think it's very important for developers to use appropriate wording when encouraging people to open their wallets. A lot of the problem here is that is not how CIG have operated.

    Instead of saying "we would like" or "we will look into" or "this is not on our plan", they have practically said yes to everything under the sun. People used to joke about 10ftC being about a show where you heard Roberts say yes 10 times...

    Things that were "promised" as stretch goals are being walked back on and if there is any repercussion it is only because CIG have themselves to blame.

    For example the game was described as a space sim with flight mechanics affected by shifting mass, this was one of their selling points, they promised that this sort of thing would be what separates SC from the competition and now they have dumped that as they've realised it isn't fun or it's too hard to implement.

    When a developer uses phrasing that makes it sound as though they are certain you cannot blame people for taking that onboard. These are people that are experienced in their field so backers (typically people with no developer experience) are going to listen to them, much in the same way you would listen to your car mechanic or whatever.

    That was one of the things I liked about Frontier, on the whole they were very careful about what they agreed to.


    I know it sounds like I'm ragging on CIG but I have this opinion about any and all developers, Sean Murray was another prime example, Frontier and how they handled their offline mode and so on.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    I voted you an "insightful" for catching on! Great job!
    So your argument is that the CIG higher ups and employees were all lying?

    Your argument is that they were not working towards a late-year release of 3.0 and knew that when it was announced?
    I don't honestly believe 3.0 was anything other than a statement "there will be a 3.0" when it was discussed last fall. There's no possible way it could have been.

    You didn't even like how I caught out Erillion's argument on page 1 about reneging on "limited availability spaceship.jpgs". It's like you're being lied to so much, all over, you're not even seeing it fly by your eyes.
    >>>
    You didn't even like how I caught out Erillion's argument on page 1 about reneging on "limited availability spaceship.jpgs".
    >>>

    I stated the reason why CIG did make limited ships available again ... to crash the grey/black market that was getting out of hand ... and in my opinion it was an excellent decision and worked very well.

    CIG also stated officially why they decided to again offer limited edition ships .... there are literally hundredthousands of new backers that never had the chance to get such ships because they did not know about Star Citizen back then.  Seems like quite a  few asked CIG for a chance to obtain these ships too.


    Have fun

    Crashing the market is understandable,  even if CIG themselves created the market through limited edition ships to make money for themselves.  

    Bringing them back for new backers??  What?  The entire point of limited edition is that, if you don't get them during the limited windows you don't get them.
    CIG allowed the grey market to foster by ignoring it and letting it grow and grow. It's just a convienant excuse to say "we are bringing back limited ships to crash the market" when really it's just a way to play on people's need to have something that's perceived to be around for a limited time only. 

    They are greedy bastards and they barely try to hide that fact anymore. And please don't lecture me about no one is holding a gun to their head bull. 
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited March 2017
    Instead of saying "we would like" or "we will look into" or "this is not on our plan", they have practically said yes to everything under the sun. People used to joke about 10ftC being about a show where you heard Roberts say yes 10 times...

    Things that were "promised" as stretch goals are being walked back on and if there is any repercussion it is only because CIG have themselves to blame.
    Seriously?

    One of the most common terminologies that were always used on places as 10ftc, is "we plan", "we hope", "we would like X and Y", "in the far future", for many many things that are part of this game's scope of things that might or not be.

    I really can't see where you are coming from, it's easy to dig into the terminology he uses and understand a majority of his answers always felt under the realm of possibility, not a certainty.

    For example http://scqa.info/?show=10FTC&episode=86&qid=1
    Our plan / I think / I guess. There's a freaking lot of answers like that, showing something is planned to be like that, but not confirming it will be.
This discussion has been closed.