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Crowdfunded MMORPGs [STATUS]

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  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 330
    Kyleran said:
    Still not seeing Ashes of Creation which some might argue has moved up to the front of the pack with their alpha supposedly happening "soon."


    It's almost at the end of the list, between Dual Universe and LiF:MMO
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 596
    edited February 14
    The ones that have semi-complete loops are so boring and uninspiring too; like Crowfall or star citizen. For all their faults at least the suits pushed developers into quicker development cycles. Now it takes x2+ as long for the same low-quality content. Abysmal state for the mmorpg genre...still. Sadly it makes me yearn for the WoW clone days where a new AAA was pumped out at least once a year.
    ---------------
    Cmon don't act like kickstarters/crowdfunded did anything to progress the genre. We got phrases to overexaggerate mechanics in the game(like Sega's Blast processing) Most are dumbed down to the point of mobile game levels or grossly exaggerating ideas and barely have core concepts down(SC). None have innovated anything except for removing the middle man and getting to pocket money without retribution. All we have are ideas and dreams that we paid for or empty husk indie games in perpetual EA.
    irpugboss said:
    I work with game, web and software devs. There is a reason for Pre-alpha, alpha, beta, etc. despite some of the understandably deserved cynical beliefs.

    This covers it fairly well, so no need to type out the concept behind the stages of software development.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle

    So do some game devs misname their stages, probably. Do some devs try to milk money from CF, Alpha, etc. most likely.

    Most however I bet are inexperienced project managers and are thrust from being an enthusiastic game developer into a small/medium sized business owner with a sudden influx of cash and business responsibilities for a very demanding audience.

    Sure you may reasonably say, well if they are such noobs they shouldn't ask for money! Well consider there are those (such as myself) who are willing to gamble on a big dream and some promising demos, experience or backgrounds. So if the market is willing to pay them then they definitely should ask for the money and learn as they go. All in the hopes of pulling it off where there would not likely be a realistic chance without such funding.

    Without crowdfunding we would be stuck with little innovation for MMOs. Being that they are too costly in time and money on top of risk towards ROI for publishers and investors to really grow the genre as it needs to. So if it is in a bad state now for most of you, it would be even worse off without crowdfunding.

    Hopefully the first larger projects from more distinguished teams make it across the finish line and make enough revenue to improve. So players get a game, the genre gets some more fuel towards innovation/features to draw upon and the devs are rewarded for their risks doing this job vs taking more lucrative and safer career options.
    BabuinixGdemamiILLISET

    MurderHerd

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,345
    The ones that have semi-complete loops are so boring and uninspiring too; like Crowfall or star citizen.
    Could you mention the specific loops you are referring and how would you make them less boring and more inspiring?

  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,619
    Thanks for the updates!

    I didn't know City of Titans was in BETA! Where's the FANFARE! Hurray!
    francis_baud
    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • Party_at_PoD_LiftParty_at_PoD_Lift Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    As long as Pantheon and Ashes are doing okay--I'm happy.
  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,055

    I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
    Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
    Gdemami
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,345
    madazz said:
    francis_baud said:
    I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
    Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.

    Most of them actually do livestreams. The biggest issue for crowdfunding studios is needing to keep a community engaged while they are building a company and creating their games.

    Since most of them were crowdfunded because they aim to bring something new to the market that means they have to make it happen from scratch. Which means figuring out how to develop the technology needed themselves. R&D (research & development) is highly costly and time consuming and rely on a lot of skunk work that doesn't necessarily translate into something palpable to showcase the community right away. Some tech can take literally years of trial and error to get "right".
    francis_baudGdemami
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 330
    edited February 18
    madazz said:

    I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
    Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
    I'll talk about the two studios I know the most, CSE and ACE.

    CSE for years had daily live stream that last for hours, plus one "end of the week" live stream with the head of the studio (or designer/producer/engineer), plus a weekly lengthy update, monthly newsletter, Discord chats, Twitter and Facebook updates, forums news and posts, website news/screenshots, plus an up-to-date user stories, and appearances on MassivelyOP, reddit, mmorpg.com, Dragon's Con 2015 & 2016, etc.

    ACE for years had twice a week updates, forum posts, development videos, art videos, monthly Q&A, Kickstarter updates, monthly newsletter, daily tweets and Facebook posts, A Murder of Crows series, Discord chat, screenshots and artworks sections updated, Gamescom 2017, 12-hours livestream, reddit AMA, etc.
    Post edited by francis_baud on
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,501
    Tokken said:
    Thanks for the updates!

    I didn't know City of Titans was in BETA! Where's the FANFARE! Hurray!

    So far as I know the only thing available for CoT is a costume creator that lets you run around an environment one you're completed the costume.

    I'm a backer and receive regular emails regarding the development progress and have not been notified of the game going to beta.
    tzervo
  • ILLISETILLISET Member UncommonPosts: 38
    As long as Pantheon and Ashes are doing okay--I'm happy.

    I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure Pantheon has been in trouble for awhile now.  Too heads moving around for thr worse, losing their production, not meaning their own deadlines or even commenting on them. 
    Gdemami
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,501
    madazz said:

    I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
    Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.

    Perhaps it isn't about what they have to do, but what they feel they should do.


  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 330
    I misunderstood this image :



    It seems like they're still in Alpha =/

  • MonsutaManMonsutaMan Newbie CommonPosts: 2
    The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.


    Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.

    The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?

    A 2D  beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.

    Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.


    francis_baudGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,218
    madazz said:

    I think one of the big issues with crowdfunding is that the developers have to spend an astronomical amount of time just interacting with the community, releasing updates, user stories, live streams, etc. That surely drains a lot of resources.
    Is nice that you're making excuses for them, but no, they not only don't have to do ALL of that (and they don't either), but they also don't have to do that daily. Nothing about updates is astronomical. None of them do live streams. Developers don't create user stories, users do. Updates can be done on a weekly/monthly basis as well. A weekly/monthly update with maybe an hour here or there to respond to community questions is not a big deal.
    I'll talk about the two studios I know the most, CSE and ACE.

    CSE for years had daily live stream that last for hours, plus one "end of the week" live stream with the head of the studio (or designer/producer/engineer), plus a weekly lengthy update, monthly newsletter, Discord chats, Twitter and Facebook updates, forums news and posts, website news/screenshots, plus an up-to-date user stories, and appearances on MassivelyOP, reddit, mmorpg.com, Dragon's Con 2015 & 2016, etc.

    ACE for years had twice a week updates, forum posts, development videos, art videos, monthly Q&A, Kickstarter updates, monthly newsletter, daily tweets and Facebook posts, A Murder of Crows series, Discord chat, screenshots and artworks sections updated, Gamescom 2017, 12-hours livestream, reddit AMA, etc.
    Welp, guess we know why their games are still not done, wasted too much time on live streaming and other such fluff.


    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,218
    The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.


    Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.

    The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?

    A 2D  beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.

    Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.


    Welcome to the forums, keep coming back.
    Scot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,534
    edited February 21
    The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.


    Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.

    The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?

    A 2D  beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.

    Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.


    Not sure a 2D beat-erm-up is going to satisfy my need for a Supers MMO. You are right it  has been tried before but compared to fantasy themed or even Sci-Fi there have been hardly any Supers MMO's made. The need is so great that fans brought CoH back!

    Good to see new posters giving us something to think about. :)
    francis_baud

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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,501
    The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.


    Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.

    The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?

    A 2D  beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.

    Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.



    At the time those projects started CoH wasn't widely available and there was no reason to believe it would be. If not for the leak it would still be available to only a select few.

    The spiritual successors still remain important as there is no telling if or when NCSoft might stop playing nice, so it's better to have eggs in other baskets to fall back on.

    Superhero MMORPGs aren't a proven failure. They have comparatively niche appeal, but of the three released to date two are still being offered commercially and the one not is avidly supported nonetheless.

    It's not a path of insanity. There is money to be had. They may not be market juggernauts, but they are profitable. Even CoH was profitable before closing down, just not to the degree NCSoft wanted. A company more modest in expectation could have kept it running successfully. After all, it is widely considered to be the best of the three and the other two are still around.

    If something else were to be offered instead, I'd rather have something like Marvel Heroes with an original setting instead and character customization. That was plenty accessible and there is a built in audience as many still miss that game, and the genre is pretty popular at the moment as well.

    I didn't know any 2d beam 'em up MMOs were thriving, but there are a few around so maybe they are more popular than I think. That isn't something I would have much interest in but I suppose it would appeal to some.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,501
    Scot said:
    The fact that CoH shutdown, then comes back before the successors even release their games must be a reality check for them. It is like those folks who jokingly said City of Heroes had a better chance of coming back than one of these projects releasing. It happened though lol.


    Those superhero mmo were too ambitious. They wanted to recreate an out of date mmo, but that out of date mmo is currently live once again. Not only that, we are talking about a 3D open world title.

    The open world superhero formula is a proven failure. History shows this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, and over expecting a different result...How insane are the people watching others be insane, but follow their path anyway?

    A 2D  beat em up style superhero mmo with character customization would thrive in my opinion. It is cheaper, and more accessible. Anyone can pick it up and play.

    Someone has to change up the game. These numerous open world superhero mmo can fail only so many times before someone tries something new.


    Not sure a 2D beat-erm-up is going to satisfy my need for a Supers MMO. You are right it  has been tried before but compared to fantasy themed or even Sci-Fi there have been hardly any Supers MMO's made. The need is so great that fans brought CoH back!

    Good to see new posters giving us something to think about. :)

    Unless there is some secret project by a major developer gets unveiled there likely won't be anything new in superhero MMORPGs for awhile, unless Ship of Heroes is getting close.

    The City of Titans character generator is improving, as is moving about in the environment after, but it still has a long way to go. Valiance Online is in a rougher state aesthetically, but is minimally playable.

    I haven't been tracking Ship of Heroes much at all, but from a couple of videos I saw it seemed the most reminiscent of CoH. It also seemed the furthest along, so maybe it will be the first successor out of the gate.
    Scot
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,542
    You make it sound like AAA games don't delay, stall or get cancelled. Sure, it probably takes longer to make an MMO if you don't get the proper funding, but what is the alternative to that? A completed game that is absolute bureaucratic garbage? Most publishers only care about return on investment. They don't give a rats ass about a game being fun anymore. All they see is, how can we make the most money with the least amount of effort.
    GdemamiKyleran

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 330
    edited February 22
    Rhoklaw said:
    You make it sound like AAA games don't delay, stall or get cancelled. Sure, it probably takes longer to make an MMO if you don't get the proper funding, but what is the alternative to that? A completed game that is absolute bureaucratic garbage? Most publishers only care about return on investment. They don't give a rats ass about a game being fun anymore. All they see is, how can we make the most money with the least amount of effort.
    If I added AAA games with publishers most likely there would be delays too. And in the contrary, some crowdfunded games released with little or no delay (Albion Online, Elite: Dangerous). So I guess it really depends on how the studio is managing the development, how they're interacting with the community and a couple other factors.

    For sure if a studio is busy creating & polishing multiple testing environments over the years (as it's often seen in crowdfunded MMOs) rather than creating THE game, then naturally delays ensue. 
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