What class mechanics do you want to see?

Dagimir

Each class will likely resemble its Everquest 1 counterpart. With that being said, what kind of new skill/mechanics would you like to see added to the classes?

Adamantine

Well ... read the FAQ first, maybe ?

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/

The class ability system is actually very different from EQ1 and Vanguard.

As usual, you get basic abilities from trainers, but the rest you have to find in the world. Which we already had in Vanguard, but apparently now to a much greater extend. So probably everybody has a bit different set of abilities in the end ?!? Not sure.

Either way, you collect your abilities in the "spellbook", the codex - which isnt only for spells, but for any class ability. And then you choose what abilities you need for the next battle. So you can only access a part of your whole set of abilities at any time.

Given that we have a lot more abilities than in Vanguard and a LOT LOT LOT more than in EQ1, yes you betcha theres more stuff than before.



Specific abilities I'd want:

- I really liked the point systems in Vanguard found on Monk, Disciple, Blood Mage, Druid, Paladin and in a very limited way also Cleric (really just a timed limit on how often they could use Turn Undead though I think the ability was actually named differently). These points worked differently on any class, but really added a nice layer of complexity to the regular combat and really made you think what button to press next.

- I would like to see more of what we already got in Vanguard. Ability sets that match the concept of the class.

- In that spirit, I would for example like to see mounts for Paladin made special. Like a charging attack that implies they ride a horse and wield a lance, even if I strongly doubt mounted combat is in Pantheon (or will ever be in).

- I definitely liked the life to mana abilities of Necromancer and Blood Mage, even if it killed me sometimes and depending upon player actually quite often.

- I also absolutely loved the original Chaos Volley on my Sorceress. An ability that kept doing more damage if you kept it up, but also increasingly damaged yourself. SO fun lolz !!!

- I would like classes to feel "organic". Many classes in Vanguard already did. For example, my Dread Knight, once I studied the class in detail and fully macro'ed it, felt almost too simple (but I never felt bored; a tank has a ton of stuff to do already anyway). But my Cleric, I just never found any working routine for it. Even after half a decade playing the guy it still was a mess. I had the same trouble with the Warrior, of all classes. What should have ben the most simple, most straightforward of all classes actually was a ***load of very situational special abilities and poorly done mechanics like this Power Attack.

delete5230

As much as I'm waiting for Pantheon, I'm not studying any of this stuff yet, and for good reason, its a long way off. 


All I need is the basic synopsis of the over all game and absolutely love where this game is leading to.  Some time is late 2017 or early 2018 I'll study the hell out of it, and know every last detail. 

I do know my first class will be a healer because often their need for groups and right up front I plan on embracing the community and taking advantage of all group features.  Soon after I'll make my stealth class.  At one point I knew the classes for Pantheon and forgot them.  It would only take me two minuets to review each class, but why bother, it's way too early !

I'll spend my energy reading up of Ghost Recon that goes live tomorrow, I have my friends lined up for co-op.....Until then mmos SUCK !

svann

bard should be able to make song mixes and title them like in vanguard

Wizardry

class mechanics?
Not entirely sure what the op is looking for in way of answers bu i have ideas i wan to see.

Something similar to a TP bar,"tactical points" bar,instead of the way overused mana and stamina bars we always see.

So by utilizing actions you open up powerful abilities and versions of by saving and unleashing your tactical points.

Example you heal and you get 5 tp,you hit the mob you get 10 tp,then if you want you can save the tp from 100>200>whatever maybe 500.The longer you save the more potent the result,so [perhaps a heal at 500tp gives 15% more heal as well a 10% defensive buff for 30 secs.

I would also like to see player>player mechanics,meaning you work as a team and not as a pretend to be group player.SO the mob is Fire based magic ,me and a fellow group member would try to combo a Water or Ice based attack that have to attack with precise timing like waiting 2 secs after first player ,then i have 2 secs to perform my attack or perhaps have to wait for some tell by the mob that opns up a weakness opportunity.

I would like to see as much versatility per class as possible but also needs to be plausible.So for a mage the class could SLOW a mobs attacks and actions,Gravity which slows it's movement for kiting or to retreat.Paralyze which acts like a random stun,one time stuns,shield blocks etc etc ,i think we all catch the drift.

However ,i don't want to see ideas done meaningless the way it was done in the EQ games.Example 1-2 sec debuffs,why bother?Now obviously a stun can't last but 2 secs max but most other debilitating ideas should last MUCH longer with a proc rate.Basically what the EQ franchise did was basically have stuff proc once ,again don't be chap or lame with ideas,give the players some FUN,with better procs.

Wizardry

As to stuff like shield blocks,i want to see FULL blocks with a stun effect,not the only blocks 10% kind of lame ideas,again let's see some FUN and not handcuff combat so that everything feels locked in and players have no control over the result.
Example,if i am a tank i want to save my Shield Block that perhaps has a 1 minute timer fo the right moment,like when a mob is about to utilize a strong attack,then i can block it and stun the attack and effects.

What i have seen from combat design ,game after game,feels handcuffed,like i have no control over the result.What the cheap non thinking system designers do is add in manual aims and dodging,that is a cheap lazy cop out way to do it.Give us mechanics and abilities and if we utilize them properly and at the correct time ,we control combat.

I( don't want to see a mana bar that basically says ok ,you can cast 4 spells then your done,that is handcuffed combat.You utilize timers so players cannot SPAM spells or abilities,players have to make wise decisions when to use their spells and abilities.

Warlyx

As summoner i hope and pray everyday for pets to not be just glorified dots , i want to be a summoner not a dot class with a pet that follow me , i want to command my minions to do the dmg , at least it was i expect from a summoner , that the pet does 80% of my dmg , but not as passive , i want to synergy with it , a improved pet system from Aion / FFXI ....

i hope that every class have its own "minigame" , i will name WoW here , rogues had combo points, its like a minigame , hunters used to have aspects , diferent stings for diferent situations , maybe the ranger could use a quiver system , with different arrows ....

Monk could use a combo system , that chain attacks in order ABC = stun BCA = dot CBA = spike dmg ect

i hope we have resources to look at , and not just push the most dmg buttons until empty , and repeat .

I hope the enchanter has racial illusions! charm that doesnt break on dmg would be cool

and some chained attacks with others in the group would be amazing , FFXI skillchains or Eq2 heroic op. , Lotro system too

is too bad that this system usually fall off later on

Adamantine

If the pet would do 80% of the damage, then couldnt the summoer just sit back and do nothing at all ? He then only loses 20% of the damage. There would be almost no difference between a poorly and a great played summoner.

I would rather expect the pet to do 5%, at most about 20% of the damage, while keeping aggro.

Wizardry

Adamantine said:

If the pet would do 80% of the damage, then couldnt the summoer just sit back and do nothing at all ? He then only loses 20% of the damage. There would be almost no difference between a poorly and a great played summoner.

I would rather expect the pet to do 5%, at most about 20% of the damage, while keeping aggro.

I am not going to pretend i just put hours of thought into it but this is NOT how you design a good quality class.

Typically i see stuff like pet does 50% and player does 50% of any normal single class,that comes off as a FAKE pet class.You should be able to do the same combat as any class PLUS have your pet also do whatever type of combat it does.

You simply need to put some effort into  pet class design,you don't just take numbers and split them in half and say ok here is your pet class.If i had to then YES i could design it really well because i have played so many different games i have seen how to implement ideas without making them look bad or fake.

Just quickly off the top of my head ,i can spll out some concepts/ideas.Ok naturally a REAL pet class would be op when compared to any other so you need to make players EARN it and upkeep it.One example using the best pet class design i have ever played the BST from FXI you had to first attain level 30 in a class before you could do the quest to become a BST "beastmaster".

Then perhaps an idea is the player has to farm items to craft into food to feed the pet and it would be real hungry being a combat pet.This craft would perhaps be locked,so no buying off the AH,you have to build up a crafting level high enough and do it yourself.Then another idea would be like you are not able to do any attacks yourself if issuing commands to your pet.so perhaps a sort of stun effect for 2 secs.Again using FFXI as an example,you might have to charm your pets and they might not accept the charm and attack you or they might leave the charm within a couple minutes.Basically you make the pet class something the player has to steadily work at so it becomes an option of convenient easier class choice or the pet class that takes a lot more work and effort to play.

Dagimir

Wizardry said:

class mechanics?
Not entirely sure what the op is looking for in way of answers bu i have ideas i wan to see.

New ideas. Things that you have yet to see in an mmo like everquest or vanguard. Problem with most of the replys sofar is that you guys are stating things you want that have already been done. Im asking for something new and unique that you would like to see.

svann

Id like to see ability interaction, somewhat like vanguard's combo strings.  You used attack A and if it crit then attack B got a buff so you used that and if it crit then attack C was more powerful so you used that.  Except vanguard suffered because ultimately you only wanted to do the same combo string every time.  The string needs alternate choices, so A critted buffs B or C not just B, then if B crits it buffs D or E and if C crits it buff F or G.  Still even then, players will figure out which ability has more damage and will always choose that path.  There needs to be some reason to choose one sometimes and another at other times. 

At the same time there needs to be a limit to the number of abilities that are commonly used.  I think 6 is a good number for the ones that are used over and over in a fight.  Other abilities can have usage and value, but not repetitively.

Zuljan

This is one of my recent posts from the Pantheon forums, so it's a little formal but just gonna  copy pasta since it's on topic:

I want to recognize a more microcosmic aspect of balance, as per hybrid classes (i.e. rangers, druids, perhaps paladin). While VG attempted (in my vague recollection) to make rangers for example more useful (they were given a debuff of sorts that were used in raids), it felt inorganic or just something thrown in to make rangers wanted. Rangers in EQ suffered from being almost useless before end game (other classes had snares and our dps was awful) with EQ/AM3 and even then they were subpar dps (druids suffered the same burden, only on the caster's spectrum/side).

I feel it's important to truly give these hybrid classes a reason to be wanted by groups, perhaps by giving them the usual patch heal, but then additionally a huge HoT or complete heal (only give it an hour or so CD) or huge wizard-esque nuke, but only outdoors (just thinking outloud). Just something to make these classes truly hybrid in certain situations, and not a weakened jack of all trades, with "1 ranger buff or debuff" thrown in, for it takes away from the identity and therefore immersion of you into your character. Hybrids should, at the least, have their moment where groups say "oh yeah definitely pick a druid up for this run" instead of the usual "yeah if we can't find else anything a ranger will work."

Dullahan

I agree on chain attacks. Not really a class mechanic, but just a general mechanic for all classes.

I felt like random chain attacks made every ability kind of exciting in that you didn't know if it would open a chain and give you access to different abilities.

The problem I see with chain attacks is that it could end up pigeonholing players to focus on whatever causes the chain to proc. If chains are important and triggered by criticals, then people will be forced to stack +crit builds and limit diversity of play styles.

If there are chain attacks, I think it should be random.

Dagimir

Personally I would like to see some melee crowd control instead of just magic CC. Something like weapon pins, Nets, Tosses, trips, etc. In the monk thread I said Monks should be Melee CC instead of a Melee dps class to differentiate it from rogue even further.

TyranusPrime

While this might be asking for too much, I would personally like my class to allow me to point at my enemy and for it to explode.. I am perfectly willing to be declared OP and will sign autographs if cornered on the street.. I also request that my class have 100% resistance to death and nerf-bats..

Mendel

Dagimir said:

Personally I would like to see some melee crowd control instead of just magic CC. Something like weapon pins, Nets, Tosses, trips, etc. In the monk thread I said Monks should be Melee CC instead of a Melee dps class to differentiate it from rogue even further.

Melee crowd control.  No game has bothered to implement the grab 'em, knock 'em down then let the fat kid sit on 'em approach for a crowd control system.  It works in all types of situations, from Americanized football to 'rasslin' to movies (who hasn't seen a struggle for the dagger on the ground) to even actual weaponless combat.  Let's get opponents on the ground, get the weapons out of their hands, and go at it.

Thebeasttt

Abilities that are only useful when another class uses a certain ability. Maybe a shaman slow that's useless solo but when used after a wizards frost attack or rogue snare, slows for twice as much. Or if a wizard uses and earth spell after a blunt melee ability, the spell costs half the mana, etc.

BeansnBread

A literal dice roll in the combat chat.

Aelious

I would like to see the Paladin be more like the DAoC Paladin than a EQ Paladin. A defensive/healing type of Bard that can be tank or support. That and I would like to DW with it. I understand the "classic" Paladin is either 2h or Sword/Board but I'd like to see Pantheon break the mold a bit here.

Aelious

Dullahan said:

I agree on chain attacks. Not really a class mechanic, but just a general mechanic for all classes.

I felt like random chain attacks made every ability kind of exciting in that you didn't know if it would open a chain and give you access to different abilities.

The problem I see with chain attacks is that it could end up pigeonholing players to focus on whatever causes the chain to proc. If chains are important and triggered by criticals, then people will be forced to stack +crit builds and limit diversity of play styles.

If there are chain attacks, I think it should be random.

I think Aion did chain attacks really well. There was a handful of different chained "lines" along with static and proc-based abilities so combat didn't seem too repetitive... at least less repetitive than a normal 1,2,3 hotkey setup. There are times you have to decide to continue to the next chain ability or give that up to start a different one.

With the right branching options in Pantheon it could really make spot decisions important and dependent on the specific fight you are in.

kjempff

Nothing specific in mind, but generally I would like to see a game that tries to be as advanced as eq became mid 2000s. With the thousand small tricks and things to learn about classes and how to combine and use their abilities in combat, eq is still unmatched by any mmo since, when it comes to advanced combat mechanics. I don't expect Pantheon to deliver that level of eq mechanics at launch but it would be something to strive for. I am sick and tiered of simplistic mmos.

Machkeznho

A full on summoner class where you buff your pets, and most of your abilities are all focused on that specialty, you could bring out a pet that could tank or a pet that can heal or dps or one that just buffs the party.  Flexibility of this class would be determined on the needs of the group.  So many games have failed to hit the mark with such a class, I haven't seen it done right since.... Anarchy Online(MP/ENG)?  Rift had some decent pets but it wasn't all focused on the pets.  Final Fantasy 11 had a good smn class.  Just seems to be a class that is never properly done, if pantheon brings something like this to the table I'm so down.

Blueliner

Give me EQ1 class mechanics and combat. I have had far too much of the 7 full hotbars full of attacks and faceroll your way to victory games.

Dullahan

I think they'd do well to combine aspects of both EQ and VG. I agree with avoiding multiple hotbars of active abilities, and the need to spam them all. Abilities should be impactful and tactical, requiring players to load the right ones prior to enter a certain area or encounter. I will never play another MMO where I have to memorize more than 20 keybindings at any given time.

That said, something like a combo system would work with 1 hotbar of abilities. Lets say we only have access to 10 active abilities at a time. Every ability has a classification, whether it's an attack, a buff, a defensive ability and so forth. Each ability class could proc a chain of the same type. For instance, if you used a heal ability and it procced, it would offer a follow up single target heal, group heal, or group heal over time.

kjempff

Dullahan said:

That said, something like a combo system would work with 1 hotbar of abilities. Lets say we only have access to 10 active abilities at a time. Every ability has a classification, whether it's an attack, a buff, a defensive ability and so forth. Each ability class could proc a chain of the same type. For instance, if you used a heal ability and it procced, it would offer a follow up single target heal, group heal, or group heal over time.

That sounds too much like the overcontrolled approach all new mmorpgs suffer from, or as some others call "lock-in". Instead I would suggest continuing the spirit of eq, which is giving the player as much freedom as possible to combine abilities tactically, and when something breaks the systems only THEn limit its uses.
Well anyways about combo systems, they always looked cool on paper but as seen in eq2 and other mmos they kindda removes some tactical finesse of combat and narrows the players thinking - If combos/chains were to be implemented the freedom aspect should be considered very very carefully in my opinion.

Adamantine

Wizardry said:

I am not going to pretend i just put hours of thought into it but this is NOT how you design a good quality class.

"Its not good quality class design" is a pretty vague statement, you dont explain it further, and the examples in your posting are outright horrible, since they dont solve the issue.

I repeat, hopefully this time more clearly: the issue is that combat itself should offer a challenge. You shouldnt just do a fixed scheme like "press A, press B, press C, repeat" or, in this case, even worse "sit back and watch the pet do the work".

Characters, and thus classes, should be nontrivial to play in Pantheon, as they have been in Vanguard. Thinking about what you're doing should pay off. When to press what button, thats the question that should be hard to answer. Thats what kept me playing Vanguard, anyway, and if Pantheon fails in this respect, its likely it wont keep my interest.

So ideally a poorly played character should do maybe 5% or 10% of the damage of a skillfully played character. Because if the pet automatically does 80% damage, there is no point at all for a summoner to use their attack abilities at all. Having the pet do 50% of the damage would be much better already, sure, but still offers an very strong easy mode.

The examples you give in your posting dont help at all. I'm perfectly fine with summoners having to work for getting certain pet types, getting pets at all, or working on getting food for their pets, but that shouldnt be a too excessive game, because the main game needs to be adventuring, and it certainly cant compensate for having trivial combat gameplay.

We have lots of MMOs out there that already dont offer a challenge. Pantheon on the other hand is supposed to offer one, just like Vanguard did.