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What remains of Vanguard

AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,268
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard:_saga_of_heroes

YIKES !

What remains of the best MMO of all times is a very, very, very short description of its gameplay:

" As with any MMORPG, Characters in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes are a player's avatar in the game environment. Twelve characters can be created on a regular account. At creation, the name, gender, race, and adventuring class of the character are chosen and cannot be changed later. The character's appearance is also chosen, but can be modified by the player at any time thereafter, from the character selection screen. After his or her creation, the character can start play either in the starting area of his or her chosen race or in the trial zone called the Isle of Dawn. The character also has the option of picking a crafter class and two harvester skills.[citation needed]

Solo play is possible, but, as in many MMORPGs, the classes differ in their solo performance because of the unequal distribution of crucial abilities. Typical soloing strategies, such as self-healing, kiting and fear kiting, are only available to some classes; likewise, controlling fights with crowd control, avoiding fights with stealth or invisibility, and terminating lost fights with fake death or emergency evacuation teleports is not possible for all classes. Some classes, such as the Necromancer, have more soloing options, while some others, like the Warrior, are more narrowly focused. Player vs player (PvP) was available on the Sartok FFA PvP server, in the PvP arenas, or on PvE servers using the /duel command. This aspect of gameplay has never been a priority for the SOE developers. Vanguard classes are therefore not balanced with PvP in mind, and some classes are much more capable in this regard than others. For example, the maximum damage of a single attack is restricted to 20% of a target's maximum hitpoints, but certain classes can combine multiple instant attacks, resulting in "one-shotting", or immediately killing other players in one shot with no chance for the victim to fight back.[citation needed]

The second sphere of Vanguard is Crafting, and involves creating in-game items using 'recipes' and raw materials. Crafting recipes are a set of actions that must be performed in a particular order to produce a final result. Each of these actions costs 'action points', taken from an action pool. The maximum number of action points available varies with each recipe. During the crafting process, 'complications' may arise which affect the crafting process, usually, but not always negatively. The crafter can attempt to correct complications or resume crafting and deal with the consequences or benefits of ignoring the complications. 'Diplomacy' is a concept unique to, or at least first introduced by, Vanguard. It is basically a card game inspired in style and rules by collectable card games. Diplomats can enable certain city wide 'civic' buffs and gain certain special items needed for end-game content such as Guild Houses, the Griffon Mount, and other important end-game quests. Harvesting forms a fourth, simple sphere. Characters have a general harvest skill, which controls how well one can help others with their harvest, and can choose two out of five harvest types they want to specialize in, out of the pool of Mining Metal Ore, Quarrying Stone Slabs and Gemstone Samples, Lumberjacking Wood Timbers, Skinning Leather Hides, and Reaping Cloth Bales. Rechoosing these skills is possible, but all previous progress is then lost.[citation needed]

Vanguard is set in a high fantasy world called "Telon", unusual among MMO worlds in that it is almost entirely persistent, with no instancing or load screens. Telon does not have "zones" in the manner of most fantasy MMOs, but there are discrete areas, sometimes called "chunks" which delineate content to some extent and serve to provide general geographical reference points. The world contains 19 playable races, many of which are drawn from or inspired by traditional high fantasy sources such as the work of J. R. R. Tolkien and the tabletop fantasy role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons. There are three "continents" on the world of Telon. Each is reachable by direct, contiguous travel from the other continents, via air or sea, or by NPC boat from the major ports of call. There are various ways to travel through Telon, besides simple walking on land: by mount (horse), by player-crafted ships, by a riftway, and by flying mounts. Vanguard players can build two houses per server per account.[citation needed] Telon contains a large number of dungeons with a broad range of size and theme, found in many types of locations; some are very large, and many are above-ground structures or even outdoor adventure areas rather than traditional subterranean catacombs as such. Although most of the dungeon content is aimed at the 'full-group' encounter (six players) there are numerous areas, particularly at the lower levels, designed for solo play and small groups (2-3 players). All dungeons but one are open "public" dungeons; there is no instancing anywhere in Telon with the exception of the Ancient Port Warehouse (APW), added to Vanguard by SOE in late 2007. There is a total of six copies of APW, called "shards," and any new raid force has to choose which of the six copies to enter. Vanguard also features several overland raid encounters.[citation needed] "

This is a wild mix of what was available at different times.

And nothing is described with any accuracy.

And the various "citation needed" arent helping. Citing WHAT ? The game is GONE ! The official sites are gone. Anything official is gone. Does SOE even exist anymore ? Sigil certainly doesnt. There is nothing to cite.


Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
Viper482
«1

Comments

  • G3NexisG3Nexis Member UncommonPosts: 43
    Not sure what there is to discuss about what remains of vanguard... Really nothing remains aside from good memories.

    Vanguard was also not the best MMO of all times but it could have been had Brad not been loopy while developing it and SoE had given it the love it deserved.
    Ridelynn
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,014


    And the various "citation needed" arent helping. Citing WHAT ? The game is GONE ! The official sites are gone. Anything official is gone. Does SOE even exist anymore ? Sigil certainly doesnt. There is nothing to cite.


    It's Wikipedia. If you need/want to change that info then do it. If there is no one who wants to change that info then it doesn't get changed.



  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 622
    i still have the launcher installed on my computer does that count as what remains
  • B14cKs0LB14cKs0L Member UncommonPosts: 146
    "What remains of the best MMO of all time?"

    That game is called Asherons call and it's being emulated at a fabulous rate!

    Hehe nice try though..

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    Hopefully Pantheon can give many back the feeling of EQ/Vanguard with a live game.

    The AC emulator is interesting (my first mmorpg) but I'll likely be playing Project Gorgon to get my old AC feel back in a game entirely fresh and new.

    You stay sassy!

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Aside from it's 50 fans absent of any standards, Vanguard was considered a trashheap. They need to make a hall of shame forum for games like EQNext, Warhammer Online, Pathfinder and of course....Vangaurd.
    LasterbaTheScavenger
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Aside from it's 50 fans absent of any standards, Vanguard was considered a trashheap. They need to make a hall of shame forum for games like EQNext, Warhammer Online, Pathfinder and of course....Vangaurd.
    The same people who wanted a game like Vanguard, are the same people who didn't like a game like Vanguard. Instead they whined launch was bad (even though it got MUCH better post-launch) and wanted another game like Vanguard, which would then die as well and the cycle would repeat.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • LasterbaLasterba Member UncommonPosts: 132
    Not sure what there is to discuss about what remains of vanguard... Really nothing remains aside from good memories.

    Vanguard was also not the best MMO of all times but it could have been had Brad not been loopy while developing it and SoE had given it the love it deserved.
    Brad got FUCKED in production.  His promised funding was cancelled and his timeline was shifted impossibly to the left.  Only the uninformed blame VG on Brad.  The fault lies squarely at the feet of SOE.
  • LasterbaLasterba Member UncommonPosts: 132
    Aside from it's 50 fans absent of any standards, Vanguard was considered a trashheap. They need to make a hall of shame forum for games like EQNext, Warhammer Online, Pathfinder and of course....Vangaurd.
    Ridiculous.  
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    Lasterba said:
    Aside from it's 50 fans absent of any standards, Vanguard was considered a trashheap. They need to make a hall of shame forum for games like EQNext, Warhammer Online, Pathfinder and of course....Vangaurd.
    Ridiculous.  
    Precisely. It's just someone clueless to the real history of a game. Including 2 never released games to 2 poorly received games as well ... lol.

    Vanguard had a very rough start and once it finally shaped into a playable game the interest of the player base was lost due to newer and already more successful mmorpgs. However, those who did play it, love it. At it's core it was a pretty good game that simply didn't catch it's audience.

    Bad launches killed mmorpgs ... especially at a time when free to play, mass market salvation wasn't around to prop shit games up like today. Anarchy Online never had a massive following but it had it's rabid supporters despite one of the worst launches in mmorpg history.

    Sadly we freely hear the opinions of those with no experience in what they are talking about. They are blind to the fact this thread wouldn't exist if there weren't those who loved Vanguard.
    Cazriel

    You stay sassy!

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited June 2017
    If an MMO launches badly (which the vast majority of MMOs do), but is fixed later on...then it has nothing to do with launch but in fact no one wants to actually play that game, even if they say they want to play it. If I was looking for an MMO or any game of any genre, and its been one I've been asking for and really looking forward to...and if it launched badly but got fixed (or greatly improved since launch). I'd definitely buy it, I wouldn't let a bad launch ruin a game I asked for for years.

    In truth, the vast majority of people asking for oldschool MMOs like Vanguard don't really want an MMO like that or they'd have played it, bad launch or not. 

    What would have been successful is if they expected it to be a NICHE mmo (which would have been vastly better), because that is pretty much what it is. Even people (not all, but a majority) asking for it didn't actually like it. Instead they rode in on WoW's backside and expected millions like Blizzard got...obviously not the smartest of moves.

    If they expected somewhere say 50k to MAYBE 100k, I think they'd been a lot more successful. That is pretty much how much oldschool MMOs got for the most part, not millions like WoW. They expected too many people to like an oldschool style MMO.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited June 2017
    If an MMO launches badly (which the vast majority of MMOs do), but is fixed later on...then it has nothing to do with launch but in fact no one wants to actually play that game, even if they say they want to play it. If I was looking for an MMO or any game of any genre, and its been one I've been asking for and really looking forward to...and if it launched badly but got fixed (or greatly improved since launch). I'd definitely buy it, I wouldn't let a bad launch ruin a game I asked for for years.

    In truth, the vast majority of people asking for oldschool MMOs like Vanguard don't really want an MMO like that or they'd have played it, bad launch or not. 

    What would have been successful is if they expected it to be a NICHE mmo (which would have been vastly better), because that is pretty much what it is. Even people (not all, but a majority) asking for it didn't actually like it. Instead they rode in on WoW's backside and expected millions like Blizzard got...obviously not the smartest of moves.

    If they expected somewhere say 50k to MAYBE 100k, I think they'd been a lot more successful. That is pretty much how much oldschool MMOs got for the most part, not millions like WoW. They expected too many people to like an oldschool style MMO.
    Sorry but that is ignorance. Vanguard was mega-hyped during it's development. The majority if EQ players considered it a true successor to their game. The drama of it's development created a unique issue for Vanguard above and beyond merely a bad launch and the length of time before it was playable contributed to it's issues further.

    This was all during the old school era so I have no idea what you are going on about. Everything was niche then.

    You stay sassy!

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Sorry, but launch has nothing to do with it. Nor does drama matter if the game itself if what people want to play...someone else's drama has no effect on you or myself unless it involves you personally. I do remember it was first going to be supported by Microsoft, but then SOE took over...I find that would be a huge bonus as SOE DOES support a lot of MMOs (well I dunno about daybreak, but this is about SOE of old)...even if they may or may not make that much money. Compared to NCsoft for example that kills MMOs when they are MAKING money lol. So if the drama is because SOE took over, well that is GOOD "drama".

    Look at Elder Scrolls Online. It was one of the worst MMOs at launch I ever played. Only Anarchy Online could be worse. They changed payment models, did One Tamriel and it massively recovered into one of the most populated MMOs out there. It ALSO had "drama" with singleplayer elder scrolls fans pissed at ESO (not all, but a lot of the hardcore singleplayer only ES fans hated the idea of ESO and thought it would ruin the chances of getting a new singleplayer elder scrolls game)...yet...despite all the hate and drama surrounding ESO...only have to glance at it to know how good its doing. And at launch most people actually didn't even like it, I remember most of my friends quit and went back to WoW.

    Why did it recover? Because its what a lot of people want to play and they made good changes. Where as in Vanguard, even after launch, there were massive campaigns to get people to play...very few actually stuck with it.

    Even game chat people were saying how much better it was since launch, but no one actually stuck with it. That has nothing to do with drama or a bad launch, that has to do with a game a lot of people didn't like. It was, again...a niche MMO that was advertised and hyped up to be the next WoW...but it was always far better if it was regarded as a niche MMO experience for a small (compared to main stream MMOs) target of oldschool MMO fans

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,043
    If an MMO launches badly (which the vast majority of MMOs do), but is fixed later on...then it has nothing to do with launch but in fact no one wants to actually play that game, even if they say they want to play it. If I was looking for an MMO or any game of any genre, and its been one I've been asking for and really looking forward to...and if it launched badly but got fixed (or greatly improved since launch). I'd definitely buy it, I wouldn't let a bad launch ruin a game I asked for for years.

    In truth, the vast majority of people asking for oldschool MMOs like Vanguard don't really want an MMO like that or they'd have played it, bad launch or not. 

    What would have been successful is if they expected it to be a NICHE mmo (which would have been vastly better), because that is pretty much what it is. Even people (not all, but a majority) asking for it didn't actually like it. Instead they rode in on WoW's backside and expected millions like Blizzard got...obviously not the smartest of moves.

    If they expected somewhere say 50k to MAYBE 100k, I think they'd been a lot more successful. That is pretty much how much oldschool MMOs got for the most part, not millions like WoW. They expected too many people to like an oldschool style MMO.
    I think this is generally untrue for most products.

    If a customer decides a product is not good, it's incredibly difficult to convince them otherwise.

    This is why the first few minutes of gameplay are usually the most polished. Some of the bigger companies will likely have people purely dedicated to crunching the numbers and optimising the first impression.

    I'd imagine the vast majority of players who leave a game at launch never come back. It would be really interesting to see the numbers. If we define a "leaving" player as someone who doesn't renew their subscription, what % of people would ever return at a later point? I think it must be less than 10%, possibly a lot less than that. I would not be surprised if it was way below 1%.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,871
    edited June 2017
    Man i miss Talon , one of my favorite games , and the best collection of classes under one roof , hands down ... imo
    Scarah
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Scorchien said:
    Man i miss Talon , one of my favorite games , and the best collection of classes under one roof , hands down ... imo
    Yeah, despite it seeming like I'm anti-vanguard, it was one of my favorite MMOs. I just knew what it was, a niche MMO. It just wasn't treated as such. However. It had AMAZING classes, and by far the best Necromancer in any MMO (well except Guild Wars 1, no MMO has beat GW1 necro). Very unique classes. The druid was a lot of fun too, that was an awesome class.

    On top of that, each race had its own starting area...so sorta like WoW in that regard...each race had its own story. That was pretty awesome. My favorite was probably the Dark Elves, second was the desert humans (forgot their name) which were pretty fun.

    However what I liked most probably...holy heck were the cities in Vanguard amazing. The vanguard cities were huge, and actually felt like a real city. Not a tiny village like most MMOs do. They even beat GW2 cities in terms of size, depth and literally could easily get lost in cities in Vanguard lol.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,517
    I got a $100 + afew years worth of sub fees hole in my wallet. That counts as something right?

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,134
    edited June 2017
    I had a blast - nothing but fond memories of leveling up my monk to max and later my bear shaman and  disciple. Raided with my monk 

    Played VG from launch for 2 years straight - no regrets.


    Post edited by DMKano on
    MrMelGibson
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Only MMO I actually miss playing.

    Played all the way up to the end. *sniff*
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • KeushpuppyKeushpuppy Member UncommonPosts: 158
    Sorry best ever was Asherons Call.
    postlarval
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,705




    What remains of the best MMO of all times......


    Huh?
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,014
    I was playing this afternoon. It's buggy but it's there.



  • karmathkarmath Member UncommonPosts: 896
    Thats kinda disappointing seeing how important that game was. If Vanguard had actually lived up to what it could have been, we would be enjoying a very different style of mmo today and the industry would look a hell of a lot different.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,822
    As I've posted in another thread before, I played there several times and the maximum number of players online EVER was 5. I loved Vanguard dearly but no, 5 is in no way or shape a number of players you can enjoy this game with.

    So I unistalled and quit Vanguard again. Aside a few passionate people Vanguard has unfortunately been forgotten.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
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