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Future MMORPGs: Do we really need a Monk class?

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  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Definition of fantasy
    plural 

    fantasies


    the free play of creative imagination

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    edited March 2017
    To my knowledge, there was no such thing as a warrior monk fighting with martial arts outside of Asia (particularly China). I would like to see some evidence of that since so many of you assert that something like monks can also be European historically...I don't think that's true. 

    Yes Europe and other cultures have martial arts...but not a warrior monk sect. This is an example of European martial arts:



    Basically -- it was just part of warrior training. This is kind of my point. It's not like plated fighters didn't know martial arts either. It really should just be part of the warrior (and possibly rogue) class and not soloed out into a unique martial arts only class...but that's not even what the monk is. It's martial arts + Asian blunt weapons class....again, clearly a reference to Asian warrior monks.

    Now Monks have been in MMORPGs for awhile now (EQ actually being one of the first that popularized it). So since then there has been some European concept monks around. But I think it's fair to say that's not genesis of the class. 

    My point here is mostly about game play and not lore. When you make a rogue and warrior class, then add monk, I feel like it takes potential away from rogues and warriors. Now these classes have to be balanced around the concept of monk as well. Is there really all that much room there? Monks tend to be rogue clones with slightly different utility these days.

    Other than that I wouldn't say that classes are too specialized and narrow in Pantheon so far. 




  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.
    No they were not they were based on the David Carradine character in the 1970's TV show 'Kung Fu'.
    Actual Shaolin monks were quite different. Although there is a very colorful and largely fictional story associated with the temple going back to the seventeenth century they were not the magical Kung Fu artists they are regarded as, particularly in the West.

    The lack of weapons has more to do with the laws imposed by the Manchu dynasty than Buddhism.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Zuljan said:
    Monks were always offtanks not tanks. Seeing as they pull and take lots of damage in the process, it always made sense to me they got an AC boost. Without him you had SKs pulling and FD failing or warriors raw-dogging 4 packs (which is what happened if you didn't have a chanter). They also didn't have endurance issues like rogues in raid situations and featured different combat mechanics/disciplines to feel fresher than other melee classes. Cool class like the Beastlord; uncommonly played but 100% necessary to maximize a group/raid. No doubt it'll be a fun, complete class in Pantheon
    In EQ2 Monks are quite often progression raiding main tanks. So it depends on the game.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    No matter their inspiration, monks are warrior monks who specialize in martial arts.

    European mediveal ages also knew martial arts. It was just less common and less developed, because metal was much easier and cheaper to get in Europe than in Japan. But otherwise theres nothing specifically asian about martial arts. The idea is universally known all over the world.

    To elaborate a bit:
    Martial Arts or Wrestling, was actually very well developed in Europe in the middle ages. Wrestling was integral to any Weapon Master's Curriculum, especially if you were going to be armored. Hell, wrestling was even a practiced sport back then.

    Ever heard of greco-roman wrestling? It's an Olympic sport wrestling has been a martial sport for at least 3,000 years.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Nyctelios said:
    Your interpretation of tank is twisted by mmorpg holy trinity mentality.
    Dude, there isnt even a trinity in D&D
    Depends on how you play D&D, we have had this argument before.
  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,180
    I'm tired of Monk classes being limited to fists and kicks. How about Bo staff and kicks.
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Monk is just another way of saying martial artist. I don't see the problem. 
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    What seems to be left out in discussions about monks in a fantasy context is that there were many orders of Christian monks that were martial: the Templars, the Hospitlers, the Teutonic knights and many others.  These are completely different to Asian monks and the fantasy Shaolin monks.
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    Yes, I would say we do, as it is a word the evokes a unique perspective on pious or spiritual warriors.

    monk
    məNGk/
    noun
    1. a member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.



  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    Aori said:
    I'm tired of Monk classes being limited to fists and kicks. How about Bo staff and kicks.
    I always play monks just for kicks.. :P

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,635
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,476
    Puller and fieng death in EQ, Loved seeing in chat " TRAIN get out of the Way or Help Yourself "
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Nanfoodle said:
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
    Yep but you then descend into silliness yourself what 'real world substance' do enchanter and necromancer have? As for 'monk' giving you an 'explanation' of what the class does WTF?

    Say that we have acquired a set of (mostly) shared EXPECTATIONS of what monks, enchanters and necromancers do in fantasy games and I would agree with you.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,635
    Nanfoodle said:
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
    Yep but you then descend into silliness yourself what 'real world substance' do enchanter and necromancer have? As for 'monk' giving you an 'explanation' of what the class does WTF?

    Say that we have acquired a set of (mostly) shared EXPECTATIONS of what monks, enchanters and necromancers do in fantasy games and I would agree with you.
     If you don't know what necromancy is I don't know how to help you. I will pick just on that alone because I don't care to hand hold you for all of them. Death magic is something humans have been practicing as far back as human history is written. For all we know before that as well. Let me introduce you to a great tool called www.google.com it can stop you from saying silly things by looking them up first. 
  • xyzercrimexyzercrime Member RarePosts: 878
    Rusque said:
    ...imagine a person being able to punch really hard.
    My imagination:




    When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Nanfoodle said::
    Nanfoodle said:
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
    Yep but you then descend into silliness yourself what 'real world substance' do enchanter and necromancer have? As for 'monk' giving you an 'explanation' of what the class does WTF?

    Say that we have acquired a set of (mostly) shared EXPECTATIONS of what monks, enchanters and necromancers do in fantasy games and I would agree with you.
     If you don't know what necromancy is I don't know how to help you. I will pick just on that alone because I don't care to hand hold you for all of them. Death magic is something humans have been practicing as far back as human history is written. For all we know before that as well. Let me introduce you to a great tool called www.google.com it can stop you from saying silly things by looking them up first. 
    ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Did you really just say that????

    """""Necromancy"""""" is real ????????

    No my friend necromancy is pure fantasy, a fantasy that has a long history, but not part of the real world at all.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,635
    Nanfoodle said::
    Nanfoodle said:
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
    Yep but you then descend into silliness yourself what 'real world substance' do enchanter and necromancer have? As for 'monk' giving you an 'explanation' of what the class does WTF?

    Say that we have acquired a set of (mostly) shared EXPECTATIONS of what monks, enchanters and necromancers do in fantasy games and I would agree with you.
     If you don't know what necromancy is I don't know how to help you. I will pick just on that alone because I don't care to hand hold you for all of them. Death magic is something humans have been practicing as far back as human history is written. For all we know before that as well. Let me introduce you to a great tool called www.google.com it can stop you from saying silly things by looking them up first. 
    ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Did you really just say that????

    """""Necromancy"""""" is real ????????

    No my friend necromancy is pure fantasy, a fantasy that has a long history, but not part of the real world at all.
     Googled "history of necromancy" told to before you looked silly. 


    Necromancy (derived from the Greek nekros, meaning "dead," and manteia, meaning "divination") is the evocation of the dead to obtain omens about future events or secret facts. ... Necromancy is a practice that originated in ancient Persia, Greece, and Rome, but was most popular during the Middle Ages, and is rare today.

  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Nanfoodle said:c
    Nanfoodle said::
    Nanfoodle said:
    Seems like a silly point to pick on. It takes nothing from the game. Most class names have some real world substance. Warrior, Enchanter, Necromancer yet you don't have a problem with them? You can't make a unique name for everything or we would just be spending our time memorizing names. Monk gives you explanations of what the class does. 
    Yep but you then descend into silliness yourself what 'real world substance' do enchanter and necromancer have? As for 'monk' giving you an 'explanation' of what the class does WTF?

    Say that we have acquired a set of (mostly) shared EXPECTATIONS of what monks, enchanters and necromancers do in fantasy games and I would agree with you.
     If you don't know what necromancy is I don't know how to help you. I will pick just on that alone because I don't care to hand hold you for all of them. Death magic is something humans have been practicing as far back as human history is written. For all we know before that as well. Let me introduce you to a great tool called www.google.com it can stop you from saying silly things by looking them up first. 
    ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Did you really just say that????

    """""Necromancy"""""" is real ????????

    No my friend necromancy is pure fantasy, a fantasy that has a long history, but not part of the real world at all.
     Googled "history of necromancy" told to before you looked silly. 


    Necromancy (derived from the Greek nekros, meaning "dead," and manteia, meaning "divination") is the evocation of the dead to obtain omens about future events or secret facts. ... Necromancy is a practice that originated in ancient Persia, Greece, and Rome, but was most popular during the Middle Ages, and is rare today.

    ROFLMAO! Doubling down on it too!!

    A two thousand year old fantasy is still a fantasy. And by the way although your wiki page lumps those things under the heading necromancy they did not use the term at that time it had various names in various places at various times but it was always FANTASY!

    It is not part of the real world. It never has been.
  • CatibrieCatibrie Member UncommonPosts: 81
    Umm, voodoo is still practiced, even today.  Also,  those who commune with their dead ancestors is a form of necromancy as well (no matter what they prefer to call it) 
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Catibrie said:
    Umm, voodoo is still practiced, even today.  Also,  those who commune with their dead ancestors is a form of necromancy as well (no matter what they prefer to call it) 
    Yes but is it real?

    Also much of voodoo is nothing to do with the dead.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,635
    Catibrie said:
    Umm, voodoo is still practiced, even today.  Also,  those who commune with their dead ancestors is a form of necromancy as well (no matter what they prefer to call it) 
    Yes but is it real?

    Also much of voodoo is nothing to do with the dead.
     And yet they practice necromancy in voodoo to this day. By real do you mean dose it have real power? Can people cast real spells? 
  • CatibrieCatibrie Member UncommonPosts: 81
    For those who practice such things, yes it is very real
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,306
    edited March 2017
    To the societies that practiced it, it was real enough.

    It's also the type of history that's inspired us to have games like this. 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,635
    laserit said:
    To the societies that practiced it, it was real enough.

    It's also the type of history that's inspired us to have games like this. 
     That was my point, if the name Monk should not be used because it's real part of history. Then we will be removing many names from our fantasy stories and games. 
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