Roleplaying (RPG) first, then MMO (massive players)

nerovergil

1. Roleplaying game is not pvp game, its pve. If you want core PVP game go moba or shooter. PVP is meaningless anyway, what impact if u strong in the game? u still working at the mcdonald.

2. PVE is the heart of RPG. Immersion is the core. Immersion is like a dream, where you go to your lala land, having fun with your fantasy world. Why lala land? because reality is tough when good guy act stupid and let bad guy wins and you cant do anything about it, you will become stress. Why not jump into fantasy world and have fun a little bit.

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

4. Years of playing RPG game i have invented a random dynamic systems for questing. After i saw how interesting dynamic quest in skyrim.

5. Random dynamic system  start from NPC (non playable character) itself. Every dynamic quest occur at the past (u have complete it if u not new to the game), present and future. It continue to trigger with different NPC with the same roles.

6. Example, The Haunted Tavern quest. I create this quest myself, using what possible for coder to code and even can be code into skyrim. Its a dynamic quest.

In a 'insert timer' at random location. A haunted tavern will appear at dusk/night to attract traveler going into them and absorb their soul that result might fatal the victims.

The haunted tavern has a boss monster in it (lv 100 MVP) call Succubus, a female demon that will disguise as female human with her 40 demons (high level mobs) that will pretend to be humans to populate the tavern and make it look alive.

Victims who fall into this traps will get sick. and wake up at the forest near the tavern (not inside the haunted tavern, probably demons put them outside while they sleep). Victims who order food will also eat disgusting foods but their been fool to see it as delicious food.

Low level player can do this quest by helping to cure the victims. The victims need papaya leaf, cinnamon tea and lemon to be healthy. Low level who cant defeat the demons can craft this items to cure the victim from dying.

While of course, high level player can defeat the haunted tavern and all the demons. However, the haunted tavern will respawn at 'insert timer' in different location at later time with different (random looking) npc with the same roles. It will continue forever because its a sandbox game.

7. About Random Generated Systems (RGS), its same like the sims (3 or 4) when u press random, it will randomized the looks, the traits. with the same role.

8. What is the same role? The same role doesnt mean it has the same personality/traits. Example some evil demon is funny, some is serious, some is friendly, some is cruel, psychopath

Kyleran

PVE is meaningless to me, it's just a means to get to the PVP portion of the MMORPG, which have included PVP more often than not over the years.

I do a lot of PVE, but only in terms of what gold, gear, levels, progression it can give me in order to crush my opponents, take their lands and hear the lamentations of their women and children.

Daikuru

1. PvP is roleplaying too, not only PvE, since most games have at least two factions (at war) if you dont like it, go and play singleplay RPGs

2. its MMORPG not RPGMMO 

nerovergil

Kyleran said:

PVE is meaningless to me, it's just a means to get to the PVP portion of the MMORPG, which have included PVP more often than not over the years.

I do a lot of PVE, but only in terms of what gold, gear, levels, progression it can give me in order to crush my opponents, take their lands and hear the lamentations of their women and children.

what if it is your women and children who been stole away? is it fun? not everyone is skillfull like you to win a pvp battle. that where pve is important. everyone wins. real life already a hard pvp battle.

MMOExposed

PvE is Story

PvP is Defense

thats why I like Faction based MMOs because usually they have both interconnected. 

Aethaeryn

PvP can be a lot more immersive than PvE. . . I LOVE role playing and PvE but I find that a world in which I am able to be attacked by others, and not having that artificially inhibited, makes the game world much more realistic etc. depending on the theme of the game.

cameltosis

nerovergil said:

1. Roleplaying game is not pvp game, its pve. If you want core PVP game go moba or shooter. PVP is meaningless anyway, what impact if u strong in the game? u still working at the mcdonald.

I disagree. Roleplaying games, in my opinion, are about you are the player being able to define a role for yourself and then being able to play that role within the game world. 

So, if I want to be a crazy melee brawler, the game should allow me to build a character that can perform that role (usually by selecting the right class and then speccing / gearing a certain way) and then provide me with opportunities to perform that role. 

As PvP is nearly always 100% focused on combat, I'm limited to role-playing combat roles, but it is still an RPG. For example, when I played LotRO a lot, I used to PvP a lot in monster play. When I played as my reaver (dual wielding orc), I would repeatedly charge in to the enemy and die because that is the role I had defined for myself, using the game mechanics. I could have played more cagey and specced differently to give myself a different role, but never the less, it was still RPG...

nerovergil said:

2. PVE is the heart of RPG. Immersion is the core. Immersion is like a dream, where you go to your lala land, having fun with your fantasy world. Why lala land? because reality is tough when good guy act stupid and let bad guy wins and you cant do anything about it, you will become stress. Why not jump into fantasy world and have fun a little bit.

Again, I completely disagree. 

The only thing I would say is that RPGs have existed for far longer in the single-player domain than they have in the multiplayer domain and so the concepts of roleplaying in a single player environment (pve) are more developed than roleplaying in a multiplayer environment. Sandboxes push the RPG part of a multiplayer game, but have never gotten the love / budget to take their rough concepts and make them mainstream. 

nerovergil said:

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

I don't even know where to being with this..... 

nerovergil said:

4. Years of playing RPG game i have invented a random dynamic systems for questing. After i saw how interesting dynamic quest in skyrim.

I don't recall any dynamic quests in skyrim, they all seems very linear and pre-programmed, nothing dynamic. That said, I never completed all quests in Skyrim and didn't repeat content many times as the questing was mostly dull, so I guess I could have missed the dynamic content. 

nerovergil said:

5. Random dynamic system  start from NPC (non playable character) itself. Every dynamic quest occur at the past (u have complete it if u not new to the game), present and future. It continue to trigger with different NPC with the same roles.

I don't understand this paragraph. 

nerovergil said:

6. Example, The Haunted Tavern quest. I create this quest myself, using what possible for coder to code and even can be code into skyrim. Its a dynamic quest.

In a 'insert timer' at random location. A haunted tavern will appear at dusk/night to attract traveler going into them and absorb their soul that result might fatal the victims.

The haunted tavern has a boss monster in it (lv 100 MVP) call Succubus, a female demon that will disguise as female human with her 40 demons (high level mobs) that will pretend to be humans to populate the tavern and make it look alive.

Victims who fall into this traps will get sick. and wake up at the forest near the tavern (not inside the haunted tavern, probably demons put them outside while they sleep). Victims who order food will also eat disgusting foods but their been fool to see it as delicious food.

Low level player can do this quest by helping to cure the victims. The victims need papaya leaf, cinnamon tea and lemon to be healthy. Low level who cant defeat the demons can craft this items to cure the victim from dying.

While of course, high level player can defeat the haunted tavern and all the demons. However, the haunted tavern will respawn at 'insert timer' in different location at later time with different (random looking) npc with the same roles. It will continue forever because its a sandbox game.

I don't think you understand the word dynamic. This is not a dynamic quest. The content and quest goals remain static and linear, the only things that change are the appearance of the NPCs which doesn't affect gameplay, and the location of the quest, which again doesn't affect gameplay. 

Also, the only sandbox thing about this quest is if you, personally, created the quest yourself within the game. If that is the case, fine, but then I would never play a game where any old player could create content and have it added to the game in such a way. Most people are idiots and most player-generated content like this sucks so I wouldn't want my game world cluttered with it. 

nerovergil said:

7. About Random Generated Systems (RGS), its same like the sims (3 or 4) when u press random, it will randomized the looks, the traits. with the same role.

8. What is the same role? The same role doesnt mean it has the same personality/traits. Example some evil demon is funny, some is serious, some is friendly, some is cruel, psychopath

Is there a point to these two points?



I also want to disagree that RPG should come first, followed by MMO. That is the absolute worst way to approach the genre. 

Firstly, being massively-multiplayer-online is the only unique selling point of the genre. There is no other game genre that allows you to play in the same space with 500+ other people. If you aren't designing your entire game around being MMO, you are missing the whole point of the genre and are likely to be better off building something else. By thinking MMO first, this also forces you to ensure that the technology behind your new game is up to scratch - something that too many MMOs forget. 

Secondly, when you think RPG, think of what that term actually means. Role-playing game. Defining and playing a role within a game world. Nothing more, nothing less. People get far too hung up on expected features, like levels, gear, loot, dungeons, classes etc. That way of thinking is very much based on single-player RPGs or small scale multiplayer where playtime is tightly controlled. Thinking that way is extremely limiting as many standard RPG features from single-player games simply don't translate well into a massively-multiplayer environment. The result of thinking like you do has been the solofication and stagnation of our genre. 

Scot

You can do Roleplaying in a PvP game. I remember when in PS2 I saw a guy in world chat exhorting the his side, the Terrans. I started doing a sort of war propaganda message for the glorious Vanu.

Some guy texted "roleplaying on here, are you serious." Yes I was, you have times when you hang around waiting for something in game, why not RP. No doubt PS3 will remove all waiting times even ones of only a nanosecond so we can get to the next ding.

Kyleran

nerovergil said:

Kyleran said:

PVE is meaningless to me, it's just a means to get to the PVP portion of the MMORPG, which have included PVP more often than not over the years.

I do a lot of PVE, but only in terms of what gold, gear, levels, progression it can give me in order to crush my opponents, take their lands and hear the lamentations of their women and children.

what if it is your women and children who been stole away? is it fun? not everyone is skillfull like you to win a pvp battle. that where pve is important. everyone wins. real life already a hard pvp battle.

Oh no, I suck at actual PVP, however I excel at identifying and joining up with strong allies.

You will likely beat me, but not so much the army at my back.

HerbinLegend

cameltosis said:

Again, I completely disagree. 

The only thing I would say is that RPGs have existed for far longer in the single-player domain than they have in the multiplayer domain and so the concepts of roleplaying in a single player environment (pve) are more developed than roleplaying in a multiplayer environment. Sandboxes push the RPG part of a multiplayer game, but have never gotten the love / budget to take their rough concepts and make them mainstream. 

Actually, if we look at what gave birth to MMORPGs, MUDs, they were very much multi-user(Multi-User Dungeon), not single player. If we go further back to what essentially gave birth to MUDs, Pen and Paper games(D&D, GURPS), again, RPGs were rooted in multiplayer game play, not single player game play. So the notion that RPGs have existed far longer as single player games is pretty much false on every front.

People get hung up on expected features because the games that gave birth to MMORPGs, MUDs and Pen and Paper, respectively, had those features; levels, gear, dungeons, loot, classes, etc.

nerovergil

final fantasy 8 vs 9

theme: i love ff9 medieval theme compared to ff8 futuristic theme

character design: i love ff8, 9 too cartoony

music: i love ff9 medieval music!

Wizardry

I am glad OP that you are headed in the right direction but sorry those games you mentioend are not good rpg's,they were imo over rated.

ANY game that locks you in a map area until you beat said Dragon or said Boss,is non immersive,looks fake.Do you honestly believe that if i had a choice of going around a Dragon or fighting him,i would fight him?Oh and locked doors,i am pretty sure again if i had a choice of forcing the gate open or fighting a dragon,i would force the gate open.

However keep me informed,when you actually see an immersive "makes sense" rpg let me know.

BTW devs that focus on pvp only do so because they can't afford to make a content rich game,VERY simple to just flag players for pvp lol.yep over there is a little box that says npc takes damage yes or no,,,click yes,ok good to go, there is our big effort in creating content.

Kevan_f

well, I hate pvp too...but your claims are quite weak.
I just hope there'll be more pve focus and completely detached from pvp if both exist in the same game.

I'm worried more about bad pve gameplay (lots of grind, old new tier strategy, new cap level, so on).
look at gw2 and their raped manifesto

SirAgravaine

nerovergil said:

1. Roleplaying game is not pvp game, its pve. If you want core PVP game go moba or shooter. PVP is meaningless anyway, what impact if u strong in the game? u still working at the mcdonald.

2. PVE is the heart of RPG. Immersion is the core. Immersion is like a dream, where you go to your lala land, having fun with your fantasy world. Why lala land? because reality is tough when good guy act stupid and let bad guy wins and you cant do anything about it, you will become stress. Why not jump into fantasy world and have fun a little bit.

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

4. Years of playing RPG game i have invented a random dynamic systems for questing. After i saw how interesting dynamic quest in skyrim.

5. Random dynamic system  start from NPC (non playable character) itself. Every dynamic quest occur at the past (u have complete it if u not new to the game), present and future. It continue to trigger with different NPC with the same roles.

6. Example, The Haunted Tavern quest. I create this quest myself, using what possible for coder to code and even can be code into skyrim. Its a dynamic quest.

In a 'insert timer' at random location. A haunted tavern will appear at dusk/night to attract traveler going into them and absorb their soul that result might fatal the victims.

The haunted tavern has a boss monster in it (lv 100 MVP) call Succubus, a female demon that will disguise as female human with her 40 demons (high level mobs) that will pretend to be humans to populate the tavern and make it look alive.

Victims who fall into this traps will get sick. and wake up at the forest near the tavern (not inside the haunted tavern, probably demons put them outside while they sleep). Victims who order food will also eat disgusting foods but their been fool to see it as delicious food.

Low level player can do this quest by helping to cure the victims. The victims need papaya leaf, cinnamon tea and lemon to be healthy. Low level who cant defeat the demons can craft this items to cure the victim from dying.

While of course, high level player can defeat the haunted tavern and all the demons. However, the haunted tavern will respawn at 'insert timer' in different location at later time with different (random looking) npc with the same roles. It will continue forever because its a sandbox game.

7. About Random Generated Systems (RGS), its same like the sims (3 or 4) when u press random, it will randomized the looks, the traits. with the same role.

8. What is the same role? The same role doesnt mean it has the same personality/traits. Example some evil demon is funny, some is serious, some is friendly, some is cruel, psychopath

If you want an RPG or PVE, play a single-player RPG.

Blueliner

I don't hate PvP and at times it can add to the story. What I hate with PvP games is the giant douche nozzles it attracts to good games and subsequently ruins.

Octagon7711

Every once in awhile I would come across some people in SWG role playing PvP stormtroopers looking for rebels.  Roleplay is pretty much what you want it to be.  All it takes is one person, or a group.  

Like the Bounty Hunter who killed the groom as he was getting married ingame.  PvP roleplay.

Blueliner

Octagon7711 said:

Every once in awhile I would come across some people in SWG role playing PvP stormtroopers looking for rebels.  Roleplay is pretty much what you want it to be.  All it takes is one person, or a group.  

Like the Bounty Hunter who killed the groom as he was getting married ingame.  PvP roleplay.

Man I miss the RP in SWG so many good roleplayers back then. wonder where they all went? /sigh

Loke666

PvP and PvE doesn't exactly have anything to do with roleplaying, it (rpg) do however have a lot to do with the motivation you fight those mobs or other players.

PvP games often misses that motivation and becomes murder sims but that does not mean no PvP works in a RPG. And killing random people to take their stuff is hardly much of a motivation before anyone points that out.

Some games do have good motivation for PvP though like DaoC.

But games where you go on a killing spree for mobs with little motivation isn't much of RPGs either (Diablo comes to mind). Any game where your characters motivation is just XP and loot is an action game, not a RPG.

Of course your motivation can still be that in a rpg.

Replacing bad quests with random quests is fine, all MMOs with quests I played besides TSW have a bunch of pest exterminator, FEDEX quests and similar ones. Not a bad idea to vary the fillers.

The good quests (or DEs) still need to be written though, the good ones we actually can remember after doing them and that is fun to complete.

4507

There is actually more opportunity for roleplaying in a PvP game because you're interacting with actual people instead of lines of code. MOBAs and shooters lack the depth and impactfulness that only an MMO can provide (cutting off supply lines, capturing cities, destroying production facilities, building fortifications, outnumbering the enemy using surprise, etc)

As for your suggestion, while it would be better than the current state of MMORPG questing, truly dynamic quests would be better (solving problems that will cause actual harm to the game world if not addressed, rather than problems that just sit and wait to be solved).

Loke666

4507 said:

There is actually more opportunity for roleplaying in a PvP game because you're interacting with actual people instead of lines of code. MOBAs and shooters lack the depth and impactfulness that only an MMO can provide (cutting off supply lines, capturing cities, destroying production facilities, building fortifications, outnumbering the enemy using surprise, etc)

As for your suggestion, while it would be better than the current state of MMORPG questing, truly dynamic quests would be better (solving problems that will cause actual harm to the game world if not addressed, rather than problems that just sit and wait to be solved).

While the first thing is true those opportunities sadly usually get lost. PvP means far too often that you just go out and kill anyone you see and while you can call that "interaction" it certainly ain't roleplaying.

Few people have ever gone out and just killed all random people they met to steal their stuff, and it makes a rather boring game after a while as well. Real people tend to have motive and goals and PvP games need to become far better setting those up.

As for truly dynamic quests the idea in itself is good but it is hard to implement in a good way. More then a few people constantly screws up and that would make most servers a complete mess. The easiest way is the semi way GW2 does it, making the events truly harmful and keeping the game fun is hard. Of course if you would pull it off it would be awesome (unless the events becomes to repetitive).  

bcbully

RPG has ALWAYS been pvp. Ever hear of a Dungeon Master?

Know your history young'n

edit- I missed this - 

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

You don't even know what you don't know.

Blueliner

bcbully said:

RPG has ALWAYS been pvp. Ever hear of a Dungeon Master?

Know your history young'n

edit- I missed this - 

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

You don't even know what you don't know.

The DM ran the game, he was not a player. So no your example is not even true. Maybe you should know your history ... young'n

Loke666

bcbully said:

RPG has ALWAYS been pvp. Ever hear of a Dungeon Master?

Know your history young'n

edit- I missed this - 

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

You don't even know what you don't know.

That could be debated, there is always the question on who's side the DM actually is.

3. Yeah, LOL. He could at least said the Ultima games from the 80s which would be partially right. And roleplaying games in themselves comes from miniature wargames. H.G Wells invented those (or at least did the first known today).

bcbully

Loke666 said:

bcbully said:

RPG has ALWAYS been pvp. Ever hear of a Dungeon Master?

Know your history young'n

edit- I missed this - 

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

You don't even know what you don't know.

That could be debated, there is always the question on who's side the DM actually is.

3. Yeah, LOL. He could at least said the Ultima games from the 80s which would be partially right. And roleplaying games in themselves comes from miniature wargames. H.G Wells invented those (or at least did the first known today).

Nah no real debate. It sure wasn't a PC rolling those dice. Call them NPC, but we all know who controlled those NPCs. The human element is so important to RPGs. We need more of it where ever it can be interjected. 

The quest for "great AI" may be priority missed placed.

VengeSunsoar

Was the DM working against the player? In competition with them to kill them? Or did they just tell the story and set the scenarios.

CrowingOne

3. MMORPG comes from RPG game like skyrim, oblivion, morrowind, dragon age origin, dragon age 2,etc

Dear god read up on some things that happened before 2003.