Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

So the story begins

1246

Comments

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    edited February 2017
    Leiloni said:
    Kyleran said:
    Leiloni said:
    That just means it might get bigger. He already confirmed they have more than enough cash and it's a non-issue.
    If they already have more than enough cash to build everything they need there are no reasons whatsoever to go for crowdfunding. You definitely wouldn't pay 15% for every referral for the game.

    This is another one where they promise an extremely ambitious game while showing very little of actual gameplay because they are in pre-production. This smells like another everquest next except they want hyped fans to foot the bill for it.

    The game has a creative director that never created a game and now he is supposed to bring us a revolutionary mmorpg. Yeah, that's totally realistic.

    Regardless, I'm sure its going to be funded through kickstarter and I'm sure they will keep getting money from fans because people want to believe in miracle mmorpg and are ready to pay for them. Chances that it gets released in a polished state.....I will leave that unsaid
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • RelampagoRelampago Member UncommonPosts: 412
    Kyleran said:
    Aethaeryn said:
    ScottB2J said:
    Lol. This slap shot guy is something else
     Anytime a game offers referral links etc. and someone defends the game it always puts the defense into question. 
    "This game is awesome and these guys are haters. . here. . try it out with my link and I'll send you in game currency".
    Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/461165/so-the-story-begins/p2#XJ5osOvFpHzB1LjU.99
     
    What's even more concerning to me is that this is NOT just in game currency.  It's REAL LIFE CASH!  I can never buy the game, but simply write a great piece on it and have a link at the bottom.  For every person that clicks the link I get 15% of what they spend... forever!  According to their forums these links are already active.  So if I get someone to use my link to make an account and they go to Kickstarter (or whatever) and plop $1000 down... I get a smooth $150 in cash.  If I simply get 10 people to buy the game (guess $50) and 1 year sub (guess $15) then I get $345 as my "share'.

    Those numbers are made up for example purposes... but this is FAR beyond giving you a nice sparkly pony if you get a friend to join the game.


    Wait, this will result in real life cash payouts?

    Guys, forget everything I just said..... Going to be the greatest thing ever....watch for my upcoming infomercial, think I'll call it "Ashes to Cashes"  :p
    Reminds me of a Biggie quote...
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    Relampago said:
    Kyleran said:
    Aethaeryn said:
    ScottB2J said:
    Lol. This slap shot guy is something else
     Anytime a game offers referral links etc. and someone defends the game it always puts the defense into question. 
    "This game is awesome and these guys are haters. . here. . try it out with my link and I'll send you in game currency".
    Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/461165/so-the-story-begins/p2#XJ5osOvFpHzB1LjU.99
     
    What's even more concerning to me is that this is NOT just in game currency.  It's REAL LIFE CASH!  I can never buy the game, but simply write a great piece on it and have a link at the bottom.  For every person that clicks the link I get 15% of what they spend... forever!  According to their forums these links are already active.  So if I get someone to use my link to make an account and they go to Kickstarter (or whatever) and plop $1000 down... I get a smooth $150 in cash.  If I simply get 10 people to buy the game (guess $50) and 1 year sub (guess $15) then I get $345 as my "share'.

    Those numbers are made up for example purposes... but this is FAR beyond giving you a nice sparkly pony if you get a friend to join the game.


    Wait, this will result in real life cash payouts?

    Guys, forget everything I just said..... Going to be the greatest thing ever....watch for my upcoming infomercial, think I'll call it "Ashes to Cashes"  :p
    Reminds me of a Biggie quote...
    If you can't beat em, join em.

    I may never buy the game myself but I will make some cash off it!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,922
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    ....
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Fair enough.  Personally I'm looking forward to making some cash from a game I'll likely never play but you never know. If he follows through on the refund guarantee in the Kickstarter maybe I'll even be a backer. I think this is going to be an interesting ride.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    edited February 2017
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    You might think its childish behaviour to go for the who-will-be-right stuff but the extremely ambitious mmorpg just never happen. They are constantly underfunded with creative directors that never even created a simple game in the past. Its extremely difficult to make these types of games even for people with huge experience.

    Seen lots of people with big confidence come in and try to be mmorpg developer, guys like Mark Kern, Ryan Dancey and Curt Shilling.

    Edited away my bold statement because maybe it was too much in the being right content but I promise I will put it in my signature if I get the games wrong.
    Post edited by Shaigh on
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    edited February 2017
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,100
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.
    There should be one of those games that eventually gets finished. The problem that shroud of the avatar, camelot unchained, crowfall and pantheon suffer from is living on a $10M budget, if they had $50M one of those game would be getting really close on being finished in 2017. Hard to tell if any of those games will be a huge success but all four failing to deliver on bringing promised feature won't happen.

    The reason a game like elite: dangerous got finished so quickly was that it had a much smaller scope compared to crowdfunded games that aim to be MMORPG. Its not a fantastic game but Braben delivered on most of his promises.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Shaigh said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.
    There should be one of those games that eventually gets finished. The problem that shroud of the avatar, camelot unchained, crowfall and pantheon suffer from is living on a $10M budget, if they had $50M one of those game would be getting really close on being finished in 2017. Hard to tell if any of those games will be a huge success but all four failing to deliver on bringing promised feature won't happen.

    The reason a game like elite: dangerous got finished so quickly was that it had a much smaller scope compared to crowdfunded games that aim to be MMORPG. Its not a fantastic game but Braben delivered on most of his promises.
    Hence my questions and raised eyebrow over claims of "we have all the funding we need to finish the game" followed by "we are crowdfunding to get funding from players, private investors (TBC) before we confirm scope and budget."

    You either have confirmed access to $20 to $50M in funding or you don't. Pretty black and white to me, and if you don't, you can't say you have all you need, except perhaps with the qualifier "for now."

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,285
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    Albion Online did a pretty good job imo.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Maurgrim said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    Albion Online did a pretty good job imo.
    Not released yet, but I did buy the $30 package and look forward to playing it "soon"

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    No they're not. Games get made without publishers. They only find publishers once the game is nearing completion and they're ready to roll it out.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    MMO's don't get made in 3 years. They get made in 4-6 usually.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Leiloni said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    MMO's don't get made in 3 years. They get made in 4-6 usually.
    Alas some crowd funded efforts have promised to deliver in less, a mistake in my book and not one this team has made. (yet)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    edited February 2017
    Leiloni said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    MMO's don't get made in 3 years. They get made in 4-6 usually.
    But most have something to show and claim they have been working on it prior to the Kickstarter.  Let's see what type of date this game proposes and revisit that conversation.  Per your statement we should look for a delivery date of 2021 or further.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    Leiloni said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    MMO's don't get made in 3 years. They get made in 4-6 usually.
    But most have something to show and claim they have been working on it prior to the Kickstarter.  Let's see what type of date this game proposes and revisit that conversation.  Per your statement we should look for a delivery date of 2021 or further.
    And they do have something to show and claim they've been working on it for a year. Steven has even said numerous times in this thread that they specifically are holding off on the kickstarter until they reach some development milestones. Crowfall and Camelot Unchained had basically demos to show off but no real game yet. This game already has a pre-Alpha client up and running. Based on the progress so far, absolutely 2021 sounds reasonable.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    Leiloni said:
    Leiloni said:
    Kyleran said:
    And the who-will-be-right contest continues!

    Me?  I don't give a shit about being right.  I'm looking forward to playing the game.
    Yeah, me too. Thing is I've been waiting 3 or more years for even one of these crowd funded efforts to release a "completed" MMORPG.

    My skepticism is not unwarranted since it has yet to occur.


    MMO's don't get made in 3 years. They get made in 4-6 usually.
    But most have something to show and claim they have been working on it prior to the Kickstarter.  Let's see what type of date this game proposes and revisit that conversation.  Per your statement we should look for a delivery date of 2021 or further.
    And they do have something to show and claim they've been working on it for a year. Steven has even said numerous times in this thread that they specifically are holding off on the kickstarter until they reach some development milestones. Crowfall and Camelot Unchained had basically demos to show off but no real game yet. This game already has a pre-Alpha client up and running. Based on the progress so far, absolutely 2021 sounds reasonable.
    I would agree that 2021 would be reasonable. I'd be concerned with less than that and hope you would agree that we should be concerned with an earlier date.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    edited February 2017
    I think the 2 items that people have problems the most with are the following.

    #1 Getting 15% cash back on what friends they refer spend in either the cash shop or in a subscription.   

    #2 Being Crowd Funded

    Now the Whole Cash Back thing I also think is a load of BS.  HOWEVER I do agree with players who refer friends to the game get a percentage of money off their Subscription for a length of time.  And\OR getting a percentage of credit for the cash shop for a select time.  These are very fair systems which will help take care of marketing for the game without the need to spend much money on marketing.  


    As for the Crowd Funding.  I too find it crap and I am not a fan of it.  I did Crowd Fund SOTA and hated the direction of the game towards a P2W system.   Yes I believe P2W includes spending $10,000 on a player run city.  That is a load of bullshit.  I will not Crowd Fund Ashes of Creation no matter how much I really like this idea for a game so far.  

    A Much better idea than Crowd Funding this game if this game has 20 Million to 50 Million dollars of investors.  Setup Pre-Orders NOW and have Early access in the pre-orders.  This will give investors an idea how many units you will have before launch.  YES more people will pre-order closer to launch BUT if you already have 500K units sold the investors will have a better idea of subscription numbers and a return on investment.  It will not be accurate as all MMORPGs the target will change.  

    • Lowest Package 7 days head start before launch $29.99 (Plus 1 month Sub)
    • Middle Package Automatic Beta Access (This includes Close Beta Phase 1 or 2) Plus 7 days head-start and 1 Month Sub $59.99
    • Highest Package Automatic Alpha Access (Phase 1 or 2) Plus Close Beta Phase 1 Access, Plus 7 days head-start and 1 month Sub $99.99
    Now here is the kicker, You cannot get a full refund.  If you ask for a refund during the Alpha phase you will only be refunded down to the lowest package.  So if you start in Alpha and say after a week or 2 that Alpha testing is not for you, thats fine give you your $50 back and then you just have the lowest package.  BUT you cannot purchase Alpha access again, You can purchase Beta access if you want but you cannot refund Beta Access after you start to play in Beta.  

    Also Taxes will apply.  
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,922
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    No they're not. Games get made without publishers. They only find publishers once the game is nearing completion and they're ready to roll it out.

    Sure, but the guy said he needs to crowdfund to "pull necessary capital to CREATE the game" and in virtually the same breath says he already has enough funds to make a AAA mmo: it can't be both. 


    ....
  • JackFooleryJackFoolery Member UncommonPosts: 8
    I'll keep my eye on it. Looks really interesting
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,262
    edited February 2017
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    No they're not. Games get made without publishers. They only find publishers once the game is nearing completion and they're ready to roll it out.

    Sure, but the guy said he needs to crowdfund to "pull necessary capital to CREATE the game" and in virtually the same breath says he already has enough funds to make a AAA mmo: it can't be both. 


    You're reading into this too much. Every company that isn't NCSoft or Blizzard needs publisher money for their game, and in turn the publisher's need developers to lease them their games so they can make money off of us. This is how the industry works. Ashes will need this money as well. They won't need it now, but eventually they will. Publishers cover a ton of costs from servers, to community management, payment systems, customer service. That's also a ton of employees to hire. That's point 1.

    Typically there's some tension between developers and publishers who have differing interests. We've all seen some of our favorite games take a bad turn because of one or both parties. I've certainly felt frustrated plenty of times as a gamer about this, and clearly so has Steven, so he'd like to avoid having to go to publishers (something we've seen with other in development games recently). So that's point 2.

    I think that should be pretty clear? There's no conspiracy here. His statement was quite clear. 

    Edit: One thing that just occurred to me is they mentioned wanting to take advantage of the vocal feedback from an engaged testing community. Obviously this has been an advantage for other games, but to do that you need servers, community management, CS, etc. These are all things most games don't do publicly, and thus don't need until a game is ready for beta testing. When your pre-alpha, alpha, and initial beta testing is all done privately in house by employees and their friends and family, that's much cheaper to do at the cost of selling your soul to outside publishers later for launch.

    So when you make the choice to take publishing in house via crowd-funding, you may need the money (and services) you'd otherwise get from a publisher earlier, because you're actually using those services earlier. Because you can't exactly get away with crowd funding and then keep all your backers in the dark until public beta tests a few years from now lol.

    So it's a trade-off. Unless you're one of the big guys, you have tough decisions to make.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,922
    edited February 2017
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    No they're not. Games get made without publishers. They only find publishers once the game is nearing completion and they're ready to roll it out.

    Sure, but the guy said he needs to crowdfund to "pull necessary capital to CREATE the game" and in virtually the same breath says he already has enough funds to make a AAA mmo: it can't be both. 


    You're reading into this too much. Every company that isn't NCSoft or Blizzard needs publisher money for their game, and in turn the publisher's need developers to lease them their games so they can make money off of us. This is how the industry works. Ashes will need this money as well. They won't need it now, but eventually they will. Publishers cover a ton of costs from servers, to community management, payment systems, customer service. That's also a ton of employees to hire. That's point 1.

    Typically there's some tension between developers and publishers who have differing interests. We've all seen some of our favorite games take a bad turn because of one or both parties. I've certainly felt frustrated plenty of times as a gamer about this, and clearly so has Steven, so he'd like to avoid having to go to publishers (something we've seen with other in development games recently). So that's point 2.

    I think that should be pretty clear? There's no conspiracy here. His statement was quite clear. 

    Edit: One thing that just occurred to me is they mentioned wanting to take advantage of the vocal feedback from an engaged testing community. Obviously this has been an advantage for other games, but to do that you need servers, community management, CS, etc. These are all things most games don't do publicly, and thus don't need until a game is ready for beta testing. When your pre-alpha, alpha, and initial beta testing is all done privately in house by employees and their friends and family, that's much cheaper to do at the cost of selling your soul to outside publishers later for launch.

    So when you make the choice to take publishing in house via crowd-funding, you may need the money (and services) you'd otherwise get from a publisher earlier, because you're actually using those services earlier. Because you can't exactly get away with crowd funding and then keep all your backers in the dark until public beta tests a few years from now lol.

    So it's a trade-off. Unless you're one of the big guys, you have tough decisions to make.

    Your post highlights one of the key problems with crowdfunding: the lack of transparency. I appreciate that you took the time to explain your thoughts on the matter, but your assumptions about how much things will cost are too vague to justify the contradiction of management saying they have both a AAA budget and need to crowdfund.

    But I don't think its that important atm to be honest: the pre-alpha footage looked great so if they can bring that vision to fruition it will be awesome. Plus the ideas about nodes and so forth sound really fresh; its the kind of thing I've wanted to see in games. I just hope the crowdfunding part doesn't end up as a massive p2w scam like in CoE and SC, and of course I hope it actually gets made and released!
    ....
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    edited February 2017
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    YashaX said:
    Leiloni said:
    Assuming everyone was as informed as we are that would be correct,  But Ithink it's safe to assume the vast majority of gamers are less informed,
    Someone is not informed. They read someone lying about this game. They get fooled. They go to the website to buy the deceitful game. They see there is a promotion going on. They are now informed. 

    The thing is, they are going to advertise this promotion heavily in order to gather their marketing army. It's not somewhere hidden between the lines. 

    You know sometimes on some level as a consumer people have to think what are they doing with their money. I agree with a lot of your concerns when it comes down to Kickstarter and campaigns and I believe we should discuss them more. But thinking this sort of promotion is shady, while it is the exact opposite. Because right now ALL companies are doing this via 3rd-parties, but they are not telling people about it. That's shady--not being open about it. 

    I think there are more important issues to discuss about crowdfunding campaigns and now is a great time, because I think this game is going to attract a lot of people. 
    What questions are there about crowdfunding? He's already said they have a AAA game budget and are using Crowdfunding for other reasons - namely so they can self publish and not rely on game ruining publishers, and also so they can take advantage of early player testers giving good feedback who are really invested in the game. Seems ok to me? He also mentioned that if the game doesn't get made he'll return the crowdfunding money, but he also said with their current budget the game will be made regardless.

    Honestly not sure why everyone is so upset about this game when they don't care about others. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing here. My only concerns are regarding gameplay choices like combat design, but they're supposed to be revealing more details on that today or tomorrow anyway.
    Actually you just said untrue things.  The CEO said they did not have a budget yet.  He said it right on these forums.
    He said a couple of things: 
    1) "the amount of resources at my disposal when making this MMO are large.  Comparable to other MMOs that have been made by AAA studios." (said in relation to suggestion of a shoestring budget).

    and also:
    2) Crowdfunding will allow us to "pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers"

    Neither of those gives a budget, but the two statements are contradictory. 

    No they're not. Games get made without publishers. They only find publishers once the game is nearing completion and they're ready to roll it out.

    Sure, but the guy said he needs to crowdfund to "pull necessary capital to CREATE the game" and in virtually the same breath says he already has enough funds to make a AAA mmo: it can't be both. 


    You're reading into this too much. Every company that isn't NCSoft or Blizzard needs publisher money for their game, and in turn the publisher's need developers to lease them their games so they can make money off of us. This is how the industry works. Ashes will need this money as well. They won't need it now, but eventually they will. Publishers cover a ton of costs from servers, to community management, payment systems, customer service. That's also a ton of employees to hire. That's point 1.

    Typically there's some tension between developers and publishers who have differing interests. We've all seen some of our favorite games take a bad turn because of one or both parties. I've certainly felt frustrated plenty of times as a gamer about this, and clearly so has Steven, so he'd like to avoid having to go to publishers (something we've seen with other in development games recently). So that's point 2.

    I think that should be pretty clear? There's no conspiracy here. His statement was quite clear. 

    Edit: One thing that just occurred to me is they mentioned wanting to take advantage of the vocal feedback from an engaged testing community. Obviously this has been an advantage for other games, but to do that you need servers, community management, CS, etc. These are all things most games don't do publicly, and thus don't need until a game is ready for beta testing. When your pre-alpha, alpha, and initial beta testing is all done privately in house by employees and their friends and family, that's much cheaper to do at the cost of selling your soul to outside publishers later for launch.

    So when you make the choice to take publishing in house via crowd-funding, you may need the money (and services) you'd otherwise get from a publisher earlier, because you're actually using those services earlier. Because you can't exactly get away with crowd funding and then keep all your backers in the dark until public beta tests a few years from now lol.

    So it's a trade-off. Unless you're one of the big guys, you have tough decisions to make.
    Reasonable explanation, might even agree except founder stated earlier in this thread he can't confirm the final feature set or budget until he knows how much money they'll have to work with once the crowdfunding and private investor funding (which is likely dependent on the success of the CF effort) has been secured.

    So the short of it is they don't have all of the funding to build the complete game, but do have enough to build some MVP version if necessary.

    Just the way I view it and the company has said nothing to refute, such as say confirming financing in hand plus projected goals. If I start seeing figures in the $20-$50M range then I'll start believing it can be done.

    Otherwise I'll remain skeptical until they launch the complete game. (EA doesn't count)

    BTW, I'm not singling this title out, I'm skeptical that any studio can deliver what I consider a full featured MMORPG on a low budget, though Albion online may prove me wrong soon.

    But even there, you can see where the lack of budget impacted the graphics significantly, so not really a full featured game up to modern production standards.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    Leiloni said:



    You're reading into this too much. Every company that isn't NCSoft or Blizzard needs publisher money for their game...
    How much do you think they are going to raise on Kickstarter?

    My best guess is that they will need $20M+ to deliver on all the promises.  Maybe I'm wrong and if so the CEO can come back once he has a budget and explain why.   If they raise a million on KS it would be a success.  So are you trying to tell me that they somehow have the internal resources to get $20M but just can;t scrape up the last $1M? 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,156
    Leiloni said:



    You're reading into this too much. Every company that isn't NCSoft or Blizzard needs publisher money for their game...
    How much do you think they are going to raise on Kickstarter?

    My best guess is that they will need $20M+ to deliver on all the promises.  Maybe I'm wrong and if so the CEO can come back once he has a budget and explain why.   If they raise a million on KS it would be a success.  So are you trying to tell me that they somehow have the internal resources to get $20M but just can;t scrape up the last $1M? 
    That's the red flag. If the KS / private investor goals were realistic they would ask for like $5M on the KS, which might trigger another $5-10M in private funding, and then I'd start believing in "the vision"

    See how DF went if you want a real example of how underfunded development usually turns out, and I think even they had access to more funds than most indie devs claim. (not saying Ashes team doesn't have more, we have no idea at present)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






Sign In or Register to comment.