So the story begins

Kyleran

Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

kitarad

You created a thread here, must have unlocked it.

TheScavenger

I'm excited to see how it turns out. It sounds like my type of game.

But, with that said...

Guild Wars 2 heavily advertised their "dynamic" world and events

It turns out their dynamic world is more static than WoW and their "dynamic" events are put on a timer rofl. That isn't dynamic events, that is timed events. Also GW2 world is static because it just resets all the time back to default settings, with WoW you actually see the changes as you progress the game.

So, I'm optimistic, but will see how much they falsely advertise features like GW2 did.

Also. I know Ashes isn't advertising dynamic events really, but they talk of how the world changes and stuff and how new cities are made and new civilizations. Is it going to be crap like GW2? Or will they actually do a good job of it? If they do good, it'll be a very good MMO (for me) to play as that is something I really want to see in new MMOs.

Slapshot1188

SedrynTyros said:

Consulting my crystal ball, I prophesize that there will be a group of enthusiastic supporters who are interested in playing the finished game but also a group of detractors, who claim it's a scam designed to defraud its supporters, and who will systematically seek to undermine any support for the game at every opportunity.

I think there are legitimate concerns that the head of the company is not from the industry and his background is in Multi-Level-Marketing (INVESTOPEDIA: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/multi-level-marketing.asp ).  Not a good sign to me when they announce they will fund through Crowdfunding and institute a scheme where you can get back 15% cash for anyone that you refer.  To top it off the CFO appears to also lack any industry experience and also appears to be the husband of the company head. Just too close for comfort in my book.  If any of those points are incorrect I welcome a correction.

If they stand, this one sets off more of my internal alarm bells than Pathfinder and CoE combined!  I think these points are more than worthy of discussion...and doing so is a sign of responsibility and not trolling.

Slapshot1188

Xodic said:

@Slapshot1188 is doing his homework! You're an asset to these forums. Keep up the fire.

Thanks.  At this point I do not know enough about the company or these people to say anything definitively.  All I will say is that my Spidey Senses are tingling at DEFCON 1.

Slapshot1188

SedrynTyros said:

I agree, they're worthy of discussion, but hopefully after you've raked them over the coals enough times you'll then let them make their game.  There's a difference between discussion and sabotage.

That should depend on the answers shouldn't it?

Added:  If you should ever find an error in something I say please let me know.  I strive to be accurate in what I say and have no issue making a correction.  That said, if the truth sabotages something... I would think that's a good thing!

Ashes_Steven

Slapshot1188 said:

SedrynTyros said:

I agree, they're worthy of discussion, but hopefully after you've raked them over the coals enough times you'll then let them make their game.  There's a difference between discussion and sabotage.

That should depend on the answers shouldn't it?

Did you pose questions?  If so I did not notice.  I'd be happy to answer anything you are wondering about!

Ashes_Steven

Xodic said:

Ashes_Steven said:

Slapshot1188 said:

SedrynTyros said:

I agree, they're worthy of discussion, but hopefully after you've raked them over the coals enough times you'll then let them make their game.  There's a difference between discussion and sabotage.

That should depend on the answers shouldn't it?

Did you pose questions?  If so I did not notice.  I'd be happy to answer anything you are wondering about!

I believe he means the answers to questions that have yet to be raised, through discussion.

It's good to see someone from the game here. Welcome.

Ah gotcha!  Well either way I am now on MMORPG.com and able to answer questions that people have

Slapshot1188

Ashes_Steven said:

Slapshot1188 said:

SedrynTyros said:

I agree, they're worthy of discussion, but hopefully after you've raked them over the coals enough times you'll then let them make their game.  There's a difference between discussion and sabotage.

That should depend on the answers shouldn't it?

Did you pose questions?  If so I did not notice.  I'd be happy to answer anything you are wondering about!

Hey, I always respect someone who engages the public on a public forum so kudos for that off the bat!   Since you asked:

1. Do you have any industry experience (making online games) outside of playing MMOs for decades?  
2. Does the CFO have any industry experience (making online games)? And a subset of that: is he actually related to you?  I don't actually care about relationships often, but a CEO/CFO being married and soliciting donations through Crowdfunding is a personal concern of mine (no checks and balances).
3. Did you make your money through MLM?
4. Why are you Crowdfunding?  Is it because you need the money or is it because you want to leverage it for marketing? 
5. Will you pledge to return all funds raised if the game fails to deliver (See John Smeadly and Hero's Song). If so will you clearly state that in the Kickstarter?
6. What is the budget for the game?  What are the planned sources (% self funded/crowdfunded/other investors)
7. How much of that do you have in hand today?
8. Using a scheme of 15% cash back (I think lifetime) to anyone that refers players seems very concerning.  As these links are already active.. can people not just spam everywhere and never even buy your game but make an income from getting others to buy it?  Does that not open up vast crevices for unscrupulous folks to hype and "market" their referral links?  Will this not in fact incentivise ACTUAL shilling (which many previously have been accused of, but this would actually be PAYING people to get other people to buy your game)
9. (added via edit) Why would you pick Ashes of Creation (AoC) as a name when there is already an AoC and you know we MMO fans need to speak in acronyms?

Those are off the top of my head 

And just to restate what I posted earlier:  Should you find that I misstate or post something incorrectly please do let me know.  I never want to post something that is inaccurate.

MadFrenchie

Ashes_Steven said:

Xodic said:

Ashes_Steven said:

Slapshot1188 said:

SedrynTyros said:

I agree, they're worthy of discussion, but hopefully after you've raked them over the coals enough times you'll then let them make their game.  There's a difference between discussion and sabotage.

That should depend on the answers shouldn't it?

Did you pose questions?  If so I did not notice.  I'd be happy to answer anything you are wondering about!

I believe he means the answers to questions that have yet to be raised, through discussion.

It's good to see someone from the game here. Welcome.

Ah gotcha!  Well either way I am now on MMORPG.com and able to answer questions that people have

To that end...  I mentioned this in another thread...  You had mentioned there that developing a particular node absorbs the nodes around it, and that there are various node types that offer different benefits.

Does absorbing neighboring nodes mean that you lose their potential benefits?  I feel this would be a mistake, but you didn't seem to indicate one way or another in the thread where you mentioned this.  I'd certainly feel like incorporating those nodes at a pro-rated benefit and/or unique "hybrid" benefit to the primary node ZOI would encourage more server to server diversity and enhance the depth of the system.  However, if you and your team have witnessed pitfalls in that version of the system and choose to overwrite the adjacent nodes instead of incorporating them, I'd be interested to hear more about why!

Ashes_Steven

@Slapshot1188

Do you have any industry experience (making online games) outside of playing MMOs for decades?
Read more at

I have only played MMOs for over 25 years (Since the original Neverwinter Nights circa 1991), since I am not building this game alone,  I hired a team of industry veterans that developed the following games; Everquest 1 + 2 + Next, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, Planetside 1 + 2, XCOM, CoD and many more.  For more info on our team, you can visit https://www.ashesofcreation.com/the-team/

Does the CFO have any industry experience (making online games)? And a subset of that: is he actually related to you?  I don't actually care about relationships often, but a CEO/CFO being married and soliciting donations through Crowdfunding is a personal concern of mine (no checks and balances).

Our CFO has a background in accounting, and has my complete trust.  It is actually quite common for company founders to be married.  If it is concerning to you then I am sorry to hear it.

Did you make your money through MLM?

One of my backgrounds is the Multi-Level Marketing industry (Which is a great industry, though some companies have tarnished it's reputation, others such as Mary Kay, Avon and XanGo are great examples of what can be accomplished with MLM).  Though my primary sources of income are real-estate and investments.

Why are you Crowdfunding?  Is it because you need the money or is it because you want to leverage it for marketing?

Well to be fair, we have not started crowdfunding yet.  When we reach certain development milestones with the game, we will likely move to a crowdsourcing platform.  There are several reasons for this; First, crowdsourcing allows us to pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers who have led the MMORPG genre to it's current state. We are fully aware and agree that the downfall of many of the MMO’s that have come out recently are a result of flagrant pay2win strategies from their monetization process. We will not follow in those footsteps. Second, there is no more involved and dedicated community than those who arise from crowdsourcing.  It is a reciprocal relationship between our studios depending on the necessary testing and development of early backers, and being able to have that dialogue with people who are as invested as we are in the success of the project. Third, We want to be able to offer people who see our project early and decide to back it with unique in-game cosmetics and alpha/beta access.

 Will you pledge to return all funds raised if the game fails to deliver (See John Smeadly and Hero's Song). If so will you clearly state that in the Kickstarter?

Yes.

What is the budget for the game?  What are the planned sources (% self funded/crowdfunded/other investors)

Our budget is not yet determined. We plan to fund the project from Self-funding, Crowdsourcing, and private investors.

How much of that do you have in hand today?

Alot.

Using a scheme of 15% cash back (I think lifetime) to anyone that refers players seems very concerning.  As these links are already active.. can people not just spam everywhere and never even buy your game but make an income from getting others to buy it?  Does that not open up vast crevices for unscrupulous folks to hype and "market" their referral links?  Will this not in fact incentivise ACTUAL shilling (which many previously have been accused of, but this would actually be PAYING people to get other people to buy your game)

Well, first off it is not a "scheme".  I take offense to that, considering the word implies a negative connotation of deceit. 

Our referral program rewards players for what they already do.  So much of what an MMO is, revolves around social interaction, and players often when they find a game they think is promising want to spread the word of that game, aka "Hype".  I felt, that allowing players to be rewarded with actual money for something they already do, made sense.  Is there concern for people misusing the system and spamming these links, yes there is.  But I am not of the mindset, that those bad apples should ruin the reward for the rest of us.  Besides, those spammers tend to get banned/ignored pretty quick on sites such as these. 


Hope that answers some of your questions!

Ashes_Steven

@MadFrenchie MadFrenchie said:

To that end...  I mentioned this in another thread...  You had mentioned there that developing a particular node absorbs the nodes around it, and that there are various node types that offer different benefits.

Does absorbing neighboring nodes mean that you lose their potential benefits? 

Absorbing the neighboring nodes does not mean that they disappear, it means that their zoi becomes a part of the parent node's zoi.

The node that is absorbed will not be able to advance to the stage of the parent node. But it will continue to exist with all of it's benefits intact

ConstantineMerus

Hello @Ashes_Steven,

I suggest an official AMA if it's possible for you. Because I have several questions and right now I'm driving.

Slapshot1188

Ashes_Steven said:

@Slapshot1188

Do you have any industry experience (making online games) outside of playing MMOs for decades?
Read more at

I have only played MMOs for over 25 years (Since the original Neverwinter Nights circa 1991), since I am not building this game alone,  I hired a team of industry veterans that developed the following games; Everquest 1 + 2 + Next, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, Planetside 1 + 2, XCOM, CoD and many more.  For more info on our team, you can visit https://www.ashesofcreation.com/the-team/

Does the CFO have any industry experience (making online games)? And a subset of that: is he actually related to you?  I don't actually care about relationships often, but a CEO/CFO being married and soliciting donations through Crowdfunding is a personal concern of mine (no checks and balances).

Our CFO has a background in accounting, and has my complete trust.  It is actually quite common for company founders to be married.  If it is concerning to you then I am sorry to hear it.

Did you make your money through MLM?

One of my backgrounds is the Multi-Level Marketing industry (Which is a great industry, though some companies have tarnished it's reputation, others such as Mary Kay, Avon and XanGo are great examples of what can be accomplished with MLM).  Though my primary sources of income are real-estate and investments.

Why are you Crowdfunding?  Is it because you need the money or is it because you want to leverage it for marketing?

Well to be fair, we have not started crowdfunding yet.  When we reach certain development milestones with the game, we will likely move to a crowdsourcing platform.  There are several reasons for this; First, crowdsourcing allows us to pull necessary capital to create the game without appealing to industry publishers who have led the MMORPG genre to it's current state. We are fully aware and agree that the downfall of many of the MMO’s that have come out recently are a result of flagrant pay2win strategies from their monetization process. We will not follow in those footsteps. Second, there is no more involved and dedicated community than those who arise from crowdsourcing.  It is a reciprocal relationship between our studios depending on the necessary testing and development of early backers, and being able to have that dialogue with people who are as invested as we are in the success of the project. Third, We want to be able to offer people who see our project early and decide to back it with unique in-game cosmetics and alpha/beta access.

 Will you pledge to return all funds raised if the game fails to deliver (See John Smeadly and Hero's Song). If so will you clearly state that in the Kickstarter?

Yes.

What is the budget for the game?  What are the planned sources (% self funded/crowdfunded/other investors)

Our budget is not yet determined. We plan to fund the project from Self-funding, Crowdsourcing, and private investors.

How much of that do you have in hand today?

Alot.

Using a scheme of 15% cash back (I think lifetime) to anyone that refers players seems very concerning.  As these links are already active.. can people not just spam everywhere and never even buy your game but make an income from getting others to buy it?  Does that not open up vast crevices for unscrupulous folks to hype and "market" their referral links?  Will this not in fact incentivise ACTUAL shilling (which many previously have been accused of, but this would actually be PAYING people to get other people to buy your game)

Well, first off it is not a "scheme".  I take offense to that, considering the word implies a negative connotation of deceit. 

Our referral program rewards players for what they already do.  So much of what an MMO is, revolves around social interaction, and players often when they find a game they think is promising want to spread the word of that game, aka "Hype".  I felt, that allowing players to be rewarded with actual money for something they already do, made sense.  Is there concern for people misusing the system and spamming these links, yes there is.  But I am not of the mindset, that those bad apples should ruin the reward for the rest of us.  Besides, those spammers tend to get banned/ignored pretty quick on sites such as these. 


Hope that answers some of your questions!

It did answer many. 

I especially liked your answer to #5 and if you go through with that and actually include that pledge on the crowdfunding site it will go a long way to satisfying concerns.

I did not especially like your answer to #8 (and scheme was used as a noun and not as a verb so I think it was appropriate).  Nothing you stated even slightly lessened my concern about your creating literal paid shills. It not just about spam.  It's about monetarily incentivising people to come to sites like this and post positive things about the game.  It's not illegal, but it's very concerning to me and will put a cloud of suspicion around every single positive article, review, or forum post.  Who knows if it's true or just actual paid shilling?

Your answer to #6 also concerns me.  It is one thing to say that info is not able to be publicly discussed before the crowdfunding, but to say you haven't even determined a budget yet (your words) seems... well don't take this the wrong way.. but incompetent or  not true.  How can you talk about all these features in a game if you do not know both roughly how much it will cost to create them and how much you expect to have to spend?

Also, can you please give an example of one other MMORPG company who's owner and CFO are married? Bonus if you can name one married AND Crowdfunding.  Since you claim it is "common" I am sure you can list a few...

Lastly-  I did throw a bonus edit #9 question in that you may have missed.  Just curious about that one...


Again, whether I think your answers are flaky or not, I do respect you coming on here to field the questions!

Ashes_Steven

 It's about monetarily incentivizing people to come to sites like this and post positive things about the game.

Who knows if it's true or just actual paid shilling?

It should be pretty easily noticed.  A post of  "This game is great" doesn't quite communicate a positive and constructive review for readers, and hence will do little to convert referrals.  But if the post follows a more "This game is great because ________" Then at least there is merit to be judged, with or without a referral link.  Referral link or not, people will judge a game based on their assessment of its features.  And at the end of the day, I want to offer players a benefit for spreading the word of a great game.  It's ok to disagree

 How can you talk about all these features in a game if you do not know both roughly how much it will cost to create them and how much you expect to have to spend?

We have more features that we have not spoken about to the public, and have yet to determine if they will be in the game.  Please do not forget, we only announced the game 9 weeks ago  

Also, can you please give an example of one other MMORPG company who's owner and CFO are married? Bonus if you can name one married AND Crowdfunding.  Since you claim it is "common" I am sure you can list a few...

I was referring to companies in general, not specifically MMORPG companies.  But I am sure you could find some gaming companies out there with married founders, just do a little research

(added via edit) Why would you pick Ashes of Creation (AoC) as a name when there is already an AoC and you know we MMO fans need to speak in acronyms?

We often go between AoC and Ashes.

Again, whether I think your answers are flaky or not, I do respect you coming on here to field the questions!

Thanks!

Ashes_Steven

@ConstantineMerus ; Hello! Great idea!

Slapshot1188

Ashes_Steven said:

 It's about monetarily incentivizing people to come to sites like this and post positive things about the game.

Who knows if it's true or just actual paid shilling?

It should be pretty easily noticed.  A post of  "This game is great" doesn't quite communicate a positive and constructive review for readers, and hence will do little to convert referrals.  But if the post follows a more "This game is great because ________" Then at least there is merit to be judged, with or without a referral link.  Referral link or not, people will judge a game based on their assessment of its features.  And at the end of the day, I want to offer players a benefit for spreading the word of a great game.  It's ok to disagree

 How can you talk about all these features in a game if you do not know both roughly how much it will cost to create them and how much you expect to have to spend?

We have more features that we have not spoken about to the public, and have yet to determine if they will be in the game.  Please do not forget, we only announced the game 9 weeks ago  

Also, can you please give an example of one other MMORPG company who's owner and CFO are married? Bonus if you can name one married AND Crowdfunding.  Since you claim it is "common" I am sure you can list a few...

I was referring to companies in general, not specifically MMORPG companies.  But I am sure you could find some gaming companies out there with married founders, just do a little research

(added via edit) Why would you pick Ashes of Creation (AoC) as a name when there is already an AoC and you know we MMO fans need to speak in acronyms?

We often go between AoC and Ashes.

Again, whether I think your answers are flaky or not, I do respect you coming on here to field the questions!

Thanks!

For the record, if you are going to quote someone you should not take the first and last parts of a statement and cut out the middle. That could be almost Alex Jones like...

ScottB2J

The record shall be duely noted! 

ScottB2J

Lol. This slap shot guy is something else

Leiloni

I'm not sure why the idea of the referral links is such a crazy idea to some people. It's actually quite commonly done in that way and other ways in both the gaming industry and many others. Black Desert for example gives everyone 10 refer a friend codes. You get a variety of benefits for each one of those code users that both reaches level 40 and then also purchases the game. I'm sure you're familiar with other games doing similar benefits. The Secret World has had a similar system in place for years. It's a common way to market any product, including a game.

Then you can look at other industries. I'm sure you're all familiar with things like Amazon referral links, where the site posting the link gets a portion of money based on how much you spend on Amazon using their link. Literally the same idea as this.

Listen you're free to dislike a game, but you should give the guy a fair chance. I'm not sure why some of you are being so unfairly harsh towards a guy whose just one of many indie game developers trying to make us something cool. 

And while we're on the topic of things you're wrong about, hiring family members is a common practice, even in gaming companies. It's extremely common in Korean companies, both gaming and otherwise. It's not a foreign idea. Whether or not you agree with the practice, the fact is it happens a lot. Both NCSoft and Nexon's CEO's are notorious for having siblings and spouses as executives in their companies, and huge non-gaming companies like Samsung and Wal-mart are family run as well. They're obviously not the only ones. Do I need to mention the Trump Organization here?

Now can we get back to discussing the game for it's actual design ideas instead of this BS?

ScottB2J

Leiloni said:

I'm not sure why the idea of the referral links is such a crazy idea to some people. It's actually quite commonly done in that way and other ways in both the gaming industry and many others. Black Desert for example gives everyone 10 refer a friend codes. You get a variety of benefits for each one of those code users that both reaches level 40 and then also purchases the game. I'm sure you're familiar with other games doing similar benefits. The Secret World has had a similar system in place for years. It's a common way to market any product, including a game.

Then you can look at other industries. I'm sure you're all familiar with things like Amazon referral links, where the site posting the link gets a portion of money based on how much you spend on Amazon using their link. Literally the same idea as this.

Listen you're free to dislike a game, but you should give the guy a fair chance. I'm not sure why some of you are being so unfairly harsh towards a guy whose just one of many indie game developers trying to make us something cool. 

And while we're on the topic of things you're wrong about, hiring family members is a common practice, even in gaming companies. It's extremely common in Korean companies, both gaming and otherwise. It's not a foreign idea. Whether or not you agree with the practice, the fact is it happens a lot. Both NCSoft and Nexon's CEO's are notorious for having siblings and spouses as executives in their companies, and huge non-gaming companies like Samsung and Wal-mart are family run as well. They're obviously not the only ones. Do I need to mention the Trump Organization here?

Now can we get back to discussing the game for it's actual design ideas instead of this BS?

Well said!!!

Steven has been more open than any other developer I've ever seen. Fresh of breath air!

@Ashes_Steven

Will ashes have an auction house? Or marketplaces that players can buy or build in cities?

Shaigh

So we will have people with a monetary interest for hyping the game. This will never end up well.

ConstantineMerus

Don't hype up games. I get confused easily and I have a loose fat wallet. 

Slapshot1188

Shaigh said:

So we will have people with a monetary interest for hyping the game. This will never end up well.

We know how this one ends...

Slapshot1188

Leiloni said:

Now can we get back to discussing the game for it's actual design ideas instead of this BS?

If they weren't looking for crowdfunding sure.  If you are going to solicit donations AND have a strong link to MLM they are going to get scrutinized.   Lots of games talk great "ideas". Maybe it's time to start weighing their ability to deliver those.

Really looking forward to the manifestation of new accounts to Hype the game.  Since you brought up Amazon you should know all about how they were overtaken by fake or paid product reviews. They also specifically banned incentivized reviews on their website to combat this and have even sued over 1000 defendants over this.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/27/amazon-sues-more-sellers-for-buying-fake-reviews/

Wizardry

Not exactly sure where the op's idea for this post comes from but on the two topics mentioned ,they are easy to answer.

1 You EARN the right to have your game noticed and liked,it is not as simple as sending in to a website and you both exchange profits from it.

2 Just because something might be common place in this world does not in any fashion make it right or better said morally correct.See point #1 to understand this.

The reason law has started to enter into gaming is because it wants a FAIR market place,it does not want businesses influencing people by money and NOT by the product.Just look at Blizzard,we saw it here recently and a LOT,they like to brag about money and numbers instead of promoting the actual product.

The bottom line at least for me is that if you put out at least a DECENT looking product ,i will take notice and give you a fair chance to convince me.However convince is not really a good term because i use my OWN judgement ,i am not to be convinced of anything.You can however at least convince me to take notice.

I feel this game looks good enough that i have taken notice and this does not happen often,i am not profiting like websites where i have to say every single game is great,i am an unbiased opinion.So i think what i am trying to say OP,is that a hardened vet that is not easily pleased has taken notice,likely many others will as well so no worries there.