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Anyone else want levels to take a while?

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  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Slow leveling could easily end up being a curse if they go through with the Progeny -- depending on how it actually functions.
    I half expect that entire system to get scrapped during testing but it's something to consider.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    fivoroth said:

    I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7.  Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
    You guys are still thinking about this all wrong. You're stuck in the mindset that games are only played to be beaten. As if the "real game" only starts at "end game".

    A MMO can be fun from the start if it's designed that way. A game like that has no limit to the number of hours it's fun before max level when done right.


  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,852
    I myself prefer leveling would never end. The moment leveling ends it turns from an RPG to an action game for me.
    I thought I was the only person who has it this way. I mean the end of leveling / progression = end of RPG part of the game.

    It is why I have difficulties calling the new breed of MMOs built around endgame where you progress to max level within a week MMORPGs. 
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,852
    Dullahan said:
    fivoroth said:

    I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7.  Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
    You guys are still thinking about this all wrong. You're stuck in the mindset that games are only played to be beaten. As if the "real game" only starts at "end game".

    A MMO can be fun from the start if it's designed that way. A game like that has no limit to the number of hours it's fun before max level when done right.
    Exactly. Not having content locked behind progression milestones is a big part of it, in my opinion.

    I keep saying it is the wave of MMOs built around "endgame" which influenced people to think this way. They think MMOs are split between levelling / progression part and the actual game starting at max level.

    It is sick where this genre got to really. 
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,326
    Personally I would love to see a game that takes about 6 months of steady playing to get to max level, at about 20 hours a week worth.  Were each level is about the same amount of time to achieve.  Games today allow people to just plow through them without really spending any time doing anything.  The quest don't matter because all they want to do it hit that magic number at the top. 

    Believe it or not WoW had a good speed when it first came out the average player could take about 4-5 months before hitting level 60.  Of course you had the got to be first that only took a couple months and the really slow that took 6-8 months also.  Then there was about another 3 or 4 months of content and gearing up after that.  If you are going to make a game where you hit max level in under a month there is no point having a leveling system.  You are putting to much time into something that is worthless if that is the case.

    I love questing so I am different from a lot of players.  I don't enjoy sitting in one area killing the same mobs over and over.  Hell I would be fine with a game that only rewards xp for completion of quest, dungeons, raids, and pvp matches.  No mob xp whatsoever. 

    Basically I look at it like this you should not be able to progress to the next level till you have upgraded your skills and gear.  I don't enjoy games that just throw you better gear ever 5 mins so you can blow through stuff.  Make the game hard where you have to take your time.  Oh you pulled a couple extra mobs and you are solo you die.  For me a game with no AoE at all would be great.  No seeing a group of people run into a group of mobs and just spamming AoE over and over.

    One of the worse things to happen to gaming was the idea that everyone had to have an alt of ever class at max level.  That is one of the ideas that has killed a good leveling system.  A lot of older games people may have leveled a couple different toons but most tending to stick with the one because you couldn't reach max level in a month and would miss out if you tried.

    Overall I know I am in the minority but I enjoy the journey in games not this max level crap.  I tend to leave games once I hit max level if the only thing to do is run the same instances or raids over and over as that is boring as crap.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,987
    fivoroth said:
    Mendel said:
    Yudore said:
    <snip>
    I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

    I'm curious what others think, post below!
    I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd.   90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours.  You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play.  So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?

    I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games.  But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
    I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7.  Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
    The problem isn't really how long it takes for your character to reach max level, it's how soon someone else will reach max level.  That's when the jealousy and accusations of cheating start.  In my experience, that is when human nature takes over and the migration to other games begins.  It is frequently those 24/7 teams that race to the end causing the issues.

    When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money.  They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for.  They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content.  Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first.  Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement.  Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.

    Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player.  Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players.  The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier.  In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness.  Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff?  That was the going price in the early days of EQ1.  By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so.  Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.

    To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels.  At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 278
    it hard thing to balance but i agree on a lot of fronts an points you guys made.

    think the best way to balance it { least early game } would be gear > level  level 40 with good gear could handle a level 45 mob an live. versus a level 50 getting killed on the same level 45 mob since he rushed on easy mobs an had crap gear.


    that way you feel you time was worth going slow farming dungeons with friends for that good gear then trying find a corner to rush to 50 on easy mobs so you got X skills/talents an could win easy solo farming gear making money.



  • Pyde-PyperPyde-Pyper Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Mendel said:
    fivoroth said:
    Mendel said:
    Yudore said:
    <snip>
    I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

    I'm curious what others think, post below!
    I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd.   90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours.  You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play.  So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?

    I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games.  But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
    I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7.  Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
    The problem isn't really how long it takes for your character to reach max level, it's how soon someone else will reach max level.  That's when the jealousy and accusations of cheating start.  In my experience, that is when human nature takes over and the migration to other games begins.  It is frequently those 24/7 teams that race to the end causing the issues.

    When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money.  They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for.  They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content.  Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first.  Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement.  Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.

    Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player.  Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players.  The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier.  In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness.  Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff?  That was the going price in the early days of EQ1.  By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so.  Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.

    To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels.  At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
    The problems only start when you try to control the 5% that rush no matter what the developers do. I will be taking 5 weeks (All of my saved vacation) off when this game launches and will literally lock myself in my house to reach max level with my guild when this game releases. No matter what restrictions are placed upon us we will conquer it in no time flat. By hurting players like myself you only alienate your major player base. 

    I'm hoping 5 weeks is going to be enough time. But thinking about an average play schedule for each day of 18 hours. 5 weeks (35 days) will give me 630 hours of in-game time. That should be more than enough.

    I already see progression obstacles that stand in our way of grinding thru content such as: The acclimation system. Sounds like we will have to break off from grinding and search out items and quests that increase our acclimation to continue onto harder zones (Like Amber Fate). Any hurdle applied to rushers will be conquered immediately. It doesn't matter what it is.

    Example= Warframe controls how fast each player can Mastery Rank up thru their forced 24 hour Mastery Rank testing. You can only take one Mastery Rank test per 24 hours. I was still level 13 MR in 13 days. Which is blindingly fast for that game. It was just a nuisance to get to my Tigris Prime. These kinds of "Control" are pointless in the end.

    My need to grind out levels and max my first character is a personal goal / issue. Now, I don't do this to cause other players harm or the game harm such as you expressed @Mendel. I truly do it because I want to and that's it. But in the end if VR tries to control this act of rushing they will only hurt the other 95% of the player base that may not have the time I do or those that just choose to take a more casual approach and soak in the fresh air.

    Either way of level is not wrong. It is always a choice on how each player chooses to play the game.

    P.S. Please don't attack me on my play style. I don't wish to "RUIN" the game for anyone. And before anyone says this is what modern MMO's have taught and ingrained into me as a player. I have done this since I played MUD's before EQ1.
  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    edited February 2017
    Mendel said:
    fivoroth said:
    Mendel said:
    Yudore said:
    <snip>
    I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

    I'm curious what others think, post below!
    I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd.   90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours.  You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play.  So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?

    I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games.  But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
    I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7.  Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
    The problem isn't really how long it takes for your character to reach max level, it's how soon someone else will reach max level.  That's when the jealousy and accusations of cheating start.  In my experience, that is when human nature takes over and the migration to other games begins.  It is frequently those 24/7 teams that race to the end causing the issues.

    When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money.  They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for.  They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content.  Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first.  Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement.  Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.

    Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player.  Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players.  The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier.  In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness.  Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff?  That was the going price in the early days of EQ1.  By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so.  Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.

    To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels.  At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
    The problems only start when you try to control the 5% that rush no matter what the developers do. I will be taking 5 weeks (All of my saved vacation) off when this game launches and will literally lock myself in my house to reach max level with my guild when this game releases. No matter what restrictions are placed upon us we will conquer it in no time flat. By hurting players like myself you only alienate your major player base. 

    I'm hoping 5 weeks is going to be enough time. But thinking about an average play schedule for each day of 18 hours. 5 weeks (35 days) will give me 630 hours of in-game time. That should be more than enough.

    I already see progression obstacles that stand in our way of grinding thru content such as: The acclimation system. Sounds like we will have to break off from grinding and search out items and quests that increase our acclimation to continue onto harder zones (Like Amber Fate). Any hurdle applied to rushers will be conquered immediately. It doesn't matter what it is.

    Example= Warframe controls how fast each player can Mastery Rank up thru their forced 24 hour Mastery Rank testing. You can only take one Mastery Rank test per 24 hours. I was still level 13 MR in 13 days. Which is blindingly fast for that game. It was just a nuisance to get to my Tigris Prime. These kinds of "Control" are pointless in the end.

    My need to grind out levels and max my first character is a personal goal / issue. Now, I don't do this to cause other players harm or the game harm such as you expressed @Mendel. I truly do it because I want to and that's it. But in the end if VR tries to control this act of rushing they will only hurt the other 95% of the player base that may not have the time I do or those that just choose to take a more casual approach and soak in the fresh air.

    Either way of level is not wrong. It is always a choice on how each player chooses to play the game.

    P.S. Please don't attack me on my play style. I don't wish to "RUIN" the game for anyone. And before anyone says this is what modern MMO's have taught and ingrained into me as a player. I have done this since I played MUD's before EQ1.

    I dont see an issue with your playstyle. Your gaming preferences, your choice.

    What does pollute certain games though, is that other people take your achievement and kicks other players in the face with it.

     If you lvl in 2 days, people, for what ever reason which is not to be blamed on you, decides to tell others that the content is easy and that everybody can lvl in 2 days if they want. 
     
     This then grows more intense to the point, where a group of players who have found out how you did it, will unite on forums and tell the developers that their game sucks, cause its too easy.

     Meanwhile the "slow journey" crowd watch their loved game, turn into a pissing contest and ultimately wrecked by new designs made to please the crowd that complains, which hardly anyone who played the game in a moderate pace ever wanted.

     So no, your preference is fine, its the people who abuse your way of doing things to destroy games, that can cause issues.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited February 2017
    I myself prefer leveling would never end. The moment leveling ends it turns from an RPG to an action game for me.
    I thought I was the only person who has it this way. I mean the end of leveling / progression = end of RPG part of the game.

    It is why I have difficulties calling the new breed of MMOs built around endgame where you progress to max level within a week MMORPGs. 
    I have to completely disagree with this, Role-play simply means you're playing a role. I didn't feel the RP ended once I hit a full skill build in SWG. I felt it just started as you had just fully come into playing that role. It didn't become an action game then. It also didn't take very long to finish a build, especially after learning the ropes. Many including myself could completely re-role inside of a week, unless it was BH or something which took just a bit longer. The group I played with was very much into RP, setting up RP events pretty much weekly which usually involved many large guilds. 

    RP is about imagination, suspension of disbelief, immersion, it's not about hitting arbitrary numbers and milestones. 




    Post edited by Distopia on

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Some people will try and play 24/7 and level fast and so what. If they get to max level first and get bored and leave well who cares.  High level buffs on a lower level well that is easy to control as many other games have done already. Someone pays lots of in game cash for some item, if they are stupid enough to do that then so what. If its an item for the players level range then it should not be so powerful that it unbalances the game.
    Power leveling low level players by high level players is not hard to control if they want to control it. 
     Being first on the server to finish XYZ raid zone or kill some super mob is very over rated. I guess you may get a few minutes of fame but that is about it.  
     Of course its hard to get away from the walkthroughs for various raids if you are not first as someone in your guild will always read such. Not much way to get away from that but if the raids are design good enough they may not mean that much.
      
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558

    I would love to join people in this:)


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    DMKano said:
    Viper482 said:
    DMKano said:
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)

    what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.

    it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.

    So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
     


    Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.


    Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders? 


    You are a minority representing view of a minority.

    What stats do I need to show you - just look how pretty much every MMO in existence has transitioned from P2P to F2P/B2P

    Pure P2P has ceased to exist.

    Why?

    Because players DONT STAY anymore like they did 17 years ago.

    Instead of handful MMO to choose from back in 1999-2003, now there are 100s.

    Also now we have a ton of other stuff to do like Netflix, Social media, Steam, console online games have taken off - so a modern player has a ton of stuff asking attention - focusing on a single game for months  is very rare in majority players.


    Pure P2P today is assured failure.

    This is like arguing that after fast food became popular in a town, and no new restaurants opened up, that nobody will pay to sit and eat a good meal again.

    People play differently because games are made different. Nothing else. There is nothing new under the sun. We had dozens if not hundreds of options for recreation before the online gaming ever existed. People have gravitated towards casual, short-lived games because the industry decided that was where the best money was. Until it wasn't. Now we're left with no alternatives.

    Soon as the fine dining experience returns to the genre, so will the players.


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    Dullahan said:
    This is like arguing that after fast food became popular in a town, and no new restaurants opened up, that nobody will pay to sit and eat a good meal again.

    People play differently because games are made different. Nothing else. There is nothing new under the sun. We had dozens if not hundreds of options for recreation before the online gaming ever existed. People have gravitated towards casual, short-lived games because the industry decided that was where the best money was. Until it wasn't. Now we're left with no alternatives.

    Soon as the fine dining experience returns to the genre, so will the players.
    Generally speaking, I'm pretty sure customers voting with their wallets sets trends more than what industries decide to produce does.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    DMKano said:
    Viper482 said:
    DMKano said:
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)

    what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.

    it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.

    So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
     


    Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.


    Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders? 


    You are a minority representing view of a minority.

    What stats do I need to show you - just look how pretty much every MMO in existence has transitioned from P2P to F2P/B2P

    Pure P2P has ceased to exist.

    Why?

    Because players DONT STAY anymore like they did 17 years ago.

    Instead of handful MMO to choose from back in 1999-2003, now there are 100s.

    Also now we have a ton of other stuff to do like Netflix, Social media, Steam, console online games have taken off - so a modern player has a ton of stuff asking attention - focusing on a single game for months  is very rare in majority players.


    Pure P2P today is assured failure.


    You make the point yourself. There are hundreds of MMOs (though admittedly only 30ish worth playing) all vying for the same type of player. In order to carve out a place in this industry you need to bring something unique.... then people will be willing to pay for it! What you say above would be true if Pantheon intended to being the same standard model and was proposing a sub. They are not so the prediction is invalid. There is a market for the type of player Pantheon is vying for and it won't be prone to wander as much as you're assuming. I look forward to being right.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Mylan12 said:
    Some people will try and play 24/7 and level fast and so what. If they get to max level first and get bored and leave well who cares.  High level buffs on a lower level well that is easy to control as many other games have done already. Someone pays lots of in game cash for some item, if they are stupid enough to do that then so what. If its an item for the players level range then it should not be so powerful that it unbalances the game.
    Power leveling low level players by high level players is not hard to control if they want to control it. 
     Being first on the server to finish XYZ raid zone or kill some super mob is very over rated. I guess you may get a few minutes of fame but that is about it.  
     Of course its hard to get away from the walkthroughs for various raids if you are not first as someone in your guild will always read such. Not much way to get away from that but if the raids are design good enough they may not mean that much.
      
    Usually though, everyone gets to max level rather fast and get bored. The pacing have got out of sync.

    You should indeed not pace the game for people playing 16 hour each day but neither should you pace it for people playing 2-3 hours a week as they do today.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    DMKano said:
    Viper482 said:
    DMKano said:
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)

    what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.

    it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.

    So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
     


    Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.


    Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders? 


    You are a minority representing view of a minority.

    What stats do I need to show you - just look how pretty much every MMO in existence has transitioned from P2P to F2P/B2P

    Pure P2P has ceased to exist.

    Why?

    Because players DONT STAY anymore like they did 17 years ago.

    Instead of handful MMO to choose from back in 1999-2003, now there are 100s.

    Also now we have a ton of other stuff to do like Netflix, Social media, Steam, console online games have taken off - so a modern player has a ton of stuff asking attention - focusing on a single game for months  is very rare in majority players.


    Pure P2P today is assured failure.

    This is like arguing that after fast food became popular in a town, and no new restaurants opened up, that nobody will pay to sit and eat a good meal again.

    People play differently because games are made different. Nothing else. There is nothing new under the sun. We had dozens if not hundreds of options for recreation before the online gaming ever existed. People have gravitated towards casual, short-lived games because the industry decided that was where the best money was. Until it wasn't. Now we're left with no alternatives.

    Soon as the fine dining experience returns to the genre, so will the players.


    Well we dont even know IF Pantheon will turn out to be a fine dining experience.

    We dont even know if it will be half as good as vanilla EQ1.

    But why industry changed is because players atarted jumping games like locuats as more and more MMOs started comint out.

    Players changed how they play and games changed to cater to masses.
    How you can know that players didn't do the choosing, is because they didn't make the games. It didn't occur all at once, but gradually changes were made that corporate games thought would best increase their bottom line.

    People continue to vote with their wallets because the option is casual games or nothing.


  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,414
    Dullahan said:
    DMKano said:


    Well we dont even know IF Pantheon will turn out to be a fine dining experience.

    We dont even know if it will be half as good as vanilla EQ1.

    But why industry changed is because players atarted jumping games like locuats as more and more MMOs started comint out.

    Players changed how they play and games changed to cater to masses.
    How you can know that players didn't do the choosing, is because they didn't make the games. It didn't occur all at once, but gradually changes were made that corporate games thought would best increase their bottom line.

    People continue to vote with their wallets because the option is casual games or nothing.

    Couldn't possibly agree more.  I get really tired of this assertion that the reason that "old school" games don't exist is because nobody want's to play them.

    Kickstarter has allowed this entire idea to be completely shattered.  Let's look at Pillars of Eternity. That game literally WOULD NOT have been made had it not been for kickstarter. The risk assessors and the traditional publishers said that this style of game was dead, there was little or no market for it and it would not produce enough sales to be profitable.  They were wrong, dead wrong, and it was a resounding success.  No, it wasn't the level of something like a new Call of Duty in terms of sales, but it was profitable enough to prove that there is still a market for those types of games.

    The problem is the gaming industry has become extremely risk averse.  They are not willing to take chances on games because their investors are interested only in what will basically guarantee them an ROI (return on investment).  There was a statement by the previous CEO of EA a few years back that they would be witling their portfolio down to the 5 or 6 most profitable franchises, because while some of their games were making money, they weren't making money hand over fist, and therefore they weren't interested in making them.  This would be like a book publisher saying that they were only interested in titles that were going to be NY times bestsellers and would only be publishing books from proven authors who are NY times bestsellers.  So, what about that new book from Patrick Rothfuss who was a brand new author making a brand new product that went apeshit in sales?  In the current gaming market, no publisher would have touched his book because it wasn't a surefire guarantee of sales. The publisher would have suffered due to a lack of potential earnings from this book, and the consumer would have suffered due to not having access to his stories.

    Combine the current investor mentality (the risk averseness) with the previous success of world of warcraft, and you can very easily see why the content locust, super casual style of MMO completely took over the genre.  It's only now 12 years down the road that we're seeing the end result of this type of MMO that has no staying power (again barring WoW, which the current population is almost purely because of the sunk cost fallacy).  This has led to developers incorporating some ridiculous monetization policies that take extreme advantage of human psychology and addictive personality traits by including randomized loot boxes in cash shops (the digital equivalent of pulling the lever on a slot machine in a casino).  This is a morally and ethically bankrupt practice in my opinion, and the fact that it is predatory in nature is the only reason it has lasted as long as it has.

    To get to Dullahan's point, people like him and I have been forced into the position of voting with our wallets because there is literally nothing on the market that ticks those boxes for us.  I've tried to enjoy the best of the best of what is out there, and they've all provided at best 2-3 months of "fun" for me, and I use the term "fun" loosely.  Yet, I played P99, and despite the intricacies of that particular community, the fact I had already done almost all of that content for quite literally 1000's of hours before, I still played it for almost a year and had immense fun doing it, and that was content I had already done before, It wasn't "new" like Pantheon would be.

    This is why we've been so "gung ho" about this game and our hopes for it are high.  Yes, most of us are still sufficiently pessimistic and jaded from our many years in the genre to be blind to reality, but that doesn't mean we can't be optimistic about this game.  Could it all go to hell and back? Sure, anything can. But we believe that they have a formula that while may not lead to WoW levels of success, will be profitable enough that Visionary Realms will be able to keep developing their product, pay their employees, do what they love, and we as consumers will finally have a product that we feel is worth paying for.

    Literally everybody wins.  The ultra casual content locusts can still go play their games, and jump from game to game chasing that ever elusive "fun" (that they always talk about, but seemingly can never pin down) without having to listen to us whine about how shallow the games are. We can go back to ignoring those games because we finally have something that we WANT to play. Win/win.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    edited February 2017
    Viper482 said:
    DMKano said:
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)

    what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.

    it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.

    So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
     


    Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.


    Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders? 

    Ya, DMKano has been trying to persuade everyone that everything mmo is rosy, and he ignoring that everyone is complaining....He even go so far to say "no one is complaining"...Go figure.


    He clams to have inside info.  Maybe he does have some kind of connection but his data source is wrong and no better than us, in fact worst !!!!!!!



  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,483
    Dullahan said:

    A MMO can be fun from the start if it's designed that way. A game like that has no limit to the number of hours it's fun before max level when done right.
    Agree. I had some of my best times in EQ at lower levels. Other levels were fun too, but my days in Greater Faydark were always the most special.

    A game should be fun at every level. Unless of course the only way you can have fun is to be Captain Awesomesauce. In which case you are doomed to wait for your fun to the very end no matter what the Devs do. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • CoreChamberCoreChamber Member UncommonPosts: 146
    Yes, I hope that the level times will be increased, 15ish hours played would be good for me.  In most games today I find myself being pushed to the next zone with unfinished quest due to out leveling the content. If I say and finish then I trivialize the next set of story line/quests.  Its hard to balance though. I myself like grinding so I don't mind to finish up my current level that way to be eligible for the next set of quests, however some do.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Viper482 said:
    DMKano said:
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)

    what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.

    it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.

    So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
     


    Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.


    Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders? 

    Ya, DMKano has been trying to persuade everyone that everything mmo is rosy, and he ignoring that everyone is complaining....He even go so far to say "no one is complaining"...Go figure.


    He clams to have inside info.  Maybe he does have some kind of connection but his data source is wrong and no better than us, in fact worst !!!!!!!




    lmao, soooooooooooooooo @DMKano has been trying to persuade everyone that everything mmo is rosy and you've been trying to convince everyone for an equal amount of time that everything is wrong with MMOs, lol. It's actually quite funny you can't see the irony in your post. 

    Unfortunately, there isn't even any anecdotal evidence that what you're saying is true, either. Apart from a handful of people who speak very loudly, the anecdotal evidence shows that the games that you APPARENTLY want are closing down, not flourishing, and the games he CLAIMS people want are doing well. Thaaaaat's about as good as the evidence gets, unfortunately. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,987
    TENTING said:
    Mendel said:
    <snip>
    To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels.  At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
    The problems only start when you try to control the 5% that rush no matter what the developers do. I will be taking 5 weeks (All of my saved vacation) off when this game launches and will literally lock myself in my house to reach max level with my guild when this game releases. No matter what restrictions are placed upon us we will conquer it in no time flat. By hurting players like myself you only alienate your major player base. 

    I'm hoping 5 weeks is going to be enough time. But thinking about an average play schedule for each day of 18 hours. 5 weeks (35 days) will give me 630 hours of in-game time. That should be more than enough.

    I already see progression obstacles that stand in our way of grinding thru content such as: The acclimation system. Sounds like we will have to break off from grinding and search out items and quests that increase our acclimation to continue onto harder zones (Like Amber Fate). Any hurdle applied to rushers will be conquered immediately. It doesn't matter what it is.

    Example= Warframe controls how fast each player can Mastery Rank up thru their forced 24 hour Mastery Rank testing. You can only take one Mastery Rank test per 24 hours. I was still level 13 MR in 13 days. Which is blindingly fast for that game. It was just a nuisance to get to my Tigris Prime. These kinds of "Control" are pointless in the end.

    My need to grind out levels and max my first character is a personal goal / issue. Now, I don't do this to cause other players harm or the game harm such as you expressed @Mendel. I truly do it because I want to and that's it. But in the end if VR tries to control this act of rushing they will only hurt the other 95% of the player base that may not have the time I do or those that just choose to take a more casual approach and soak in the fresh air.

    Either way of level is not wrong. It is always a choice on how each player chooses to play the game.

    P.S. Please don't attack me on my play style. I don't wish to "RUIN" the game for anyone. And before anyone says this is what modern MMO's have taught and ingrained into me as a player. I have done this since I played MUD's before EQ1.

    I dont see an issue with your playstyle. Your gaming preferences, your choice.

    What does pollute certain games though, is that other people take your achievement and kicks other players in the face with it.

     If you lvl in 2 days, people, for what ever reason which is not to be blamed on you, decides to tell others that the content is easy and that everybody can lvl in 2 days if they want. 
     
     This then grows more intense to the point, where a group of players who have found out how you did it, will unite on forums and tell the developers that their game sucks, cause its too easy.

     Meanwhile the "slow journey" crowd watch their loved game, turn into a pissing contest and ultimately wrecked by new designs made to please the crowd that complains, which hardly anyone who played the game in a moderate pace ever wanted.

     So no, your preference is fine, its the people who abuse your way of doing things to destroy games, that can cause issues.
    Yep.  @Tenting has it right.  It's about how other players react to seeing that first few max level characters that is the problem.  The fast-leveling character enables other players to indulge in "bad behavior", no matter what the intent is / was.

    There are ways to control the rate of progression.  For instance, progression might require a specific achievement rather than (or in addition to) a specific number of XP.   If it required a character to explore 10 locations (much like a deed in LotRO), plus complete any 10 quests / tasks / bounties, plus kill any one of 5 named bosses to advance from level 1 to level 2, the spawn rate of the bosses will act as a governor on the rate of progression.  Each of these 'progression bosses' could have a number of prerequisites, as needed, to slow down expected progression.  Just an idea I've been tossing around in response to this specific thread.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,852
    Distopia said:
    I myself prefer leveling would never end. The moment leveling ends it turns from an RPG to an action game for me.
    I thought I was the only person who has it this way. I mean the end of leveling / progression = end of RPG part of the game.

    It is why I have difficulties calling the new breed of MMOs built around endgame where you progress to max level within a week MMORPGs. 
    I have to completely disagree with this, Role-play simply means you're playing a role. I didn't feel the RP ended once I hit a full skill build in SWG. I felt it just started as you had just fully come into playing that role. It didn't become an action game then. It also didn't take very long to finish a build, especially after learning the ropes. Many including myself could completely re-role inside of a week, unless it was BH or something which took just a bit longer. The group I played with was very much into RP, setting up RP events pretty much weekly which usually involved many large guilds. 

    RP is about imagination, suspension of disbelief, immersion, it's not about hitting arbitrary numbers and milestones. 




    and I respect that in spite of my perspective being different.

    I understand what you are saying and I have met people who share your view. I am not going to argue which view is the right one. I think there is no correct answer.

    I am just wondering what then makes an actual RPG different from a game like Battlefield where you also assume a role (assault, support,...) if you actually "role play" the game. I can also use my imagination and act like I am an actual medic running around healing my brothers in arms all immersed and everything. Am I playing an RPG then? Also, what makes an RPG different from Adventure games which I always, for my own use, "internally" classified as RPGs without progression.

    For me, the line between RPGs and other genres has always been a strong focus on progression which is correct for me, but not for others inevitably.

    I do not know if your experience is similar, but I have seen many times that gaming media said about certain game that it had  "RPG elements" by which they always referred to progression. I am not saying it proves anything, but it indicates that I am not the only person in the world with this perspective.

    I dont know...I dont want to sound like I am arguing. Just trying to explain myself.

  • ButeoRegalisButeoRegalis Member UncommonPosts: 594
    "Anyone else want levels to take a while?"
    No, not when the parts of the game that I enjoy, i.e. raiding, don't start until max level.

    Sometimes leveling is talked about as the part of the game that teaches you your class. I don't need to grind through 50, 60, 80, 100 levels to learn my rotations and class specs, and nevermind that leveling usually also includes skill upgrades or new skills per level, which leads to your end-game rotation not being available until late game anyway. The fact that in a number of games you can buy max-level tokens also undermines this argument.

    From the developers point of view, leveling also introduces adverse effects. In the simplest implementation, you create vast amounts of content that your players will go through once per character, to never be set foot in again. Developers have to implement extra features involving extra development effort, like level adjustments, dailies and rep grind, or collectibles, to entice gamers back into old leveling zones.

    This line of thinking of course shows that the problem doesn't lie with leveling, but rather the existence of levels and the need for character progression.

    Could you imagine a game without levels, where a character starts at the "max level" with all skills and traits and talents and specs? "Progression" would be winning through successively harder parts of the game without making your character more powerful. Your character would change only insofar as the player at the keyboard gets better (better execution of rotations, better raid awareness, less standing in fire) and skills and talents are moved around to match certain challenges (faster interrupt CD, stun resistance, AOE damage reduction).

    image

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