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Anyone else want levels to take a while?

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  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    edited February 2017
    I would love a slower leveling pace. It took me 7 months to max level my Paladin in EQ and the journey was a blast. It took longer because I played with crafting and engaged in other activities like helping friends. Of course that was also my first real foray into MMOs so the world and concept was new to me. I think for it to be as enjoyable there also needs to be more engaging combat and other activities to do at the same time (collection, language, lore and legend type progression).

    I would like Pantheon even if it was just an updated version of EQ but there are certainly improvements that can be made. The goal, I think, would be to make leveling the secondary focus to enjoying the adventure.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Yeah they should have lots to do at all levels so people are not racing to the max level.  The problem in lots of current games is that people race to max level and then they don't have much to do other than a raid or so.
    Then the company has to constantly try and keep putting out new content for the max level people but they can never keep up.
    This was a big problem in early EQ, I got to max level in 3 and a half months or so with my bard and was not much to do other than the two dragons. We use to hope that the zones would crash so that it would reset the dragon spawn. It was so boring that I left EQ for a while and did not come back till they added the fear and hate raid zones.
     I don't think a small company can keep up the content fast enough for the max level raiders.
    I think they plan to have raids at all levels perhaps they can have items that drops in the lower raids that can be upgraded by something dropped in later level raids that together makes an item that is better than the similar items that drop in the later raid.  Also maybe they can have experience so that you can temporary shut it off so that you can raid and explore without advancing level wise.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,322
    The main reason I loved slower leveling in the past is because it showed how dedicated individuals were to the class in order to get it up. It also depends on how games structure their "endgame." The old days of FFXI are a good example. Depending on what your linkshell (guild) wanted to do, you could have people from various levels participate in events such as camping HNMs, doing dynamis, group missions, etc which didn't require being at level cap to do them. Today's market is just making people "jacks of all trades" and "masters of none."
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Kyleran said:
    Three words.  Progression.  Progression.  Progression.  Oh, and I forgot one.  Progression.  Don't care how they do it but without it things get boring fast.  It seems like a simple concept, make players feel like they're accomplishing something, but for some reason it completely escapes so many developers.
    Progression is a tricky thing to balance.  Too fast and they'll upset the core audience as seen in this thread. 

    Too slow, (think L2 or FFXI back in the day) and people will also be unhappy.

    Have to find the sweet spot, or risk alienating a large portion of the player base.


    There's really no perfect middle-ground, due simply to the fact that there are different types of people. 

    Those achiever types want to level, level, level and see constant progression.  The explorer types just want to see everything, which is a problem if you can outlevel zones.

    Honestly, the best solution would be to allow people to "nerf" their own experience gains, or lock their level and stop gaining exp. altogether.  Something along the lines of the way EQ1 allowed you to funnel exp. into leadership and AAs with a manually set percentage choice.

    Or, perhaps, even allow people to go down to any level they choose, at any given time(like GW2, etc., but manually controlled) -- a mentor system that doesn't require you to mentor another player, if you will.

    I'd personally rather see fewer levels.  I think 30 as the cap would be a nice spot.  But, I think they always choose 50+ for the people who just like to see the numbers light up. 

    I'm not an overall huge fan of level progression, in general.  I'm of the mindset that experience should be exactly that, a measure of experience earned over your character's lifetime -- not a power meter.
    I kind of wish games would get away from that hold-back.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    I don't care if it takes 3 years to hit max level. If the game is fun at early levels, and the things you accomplish matter (like items and abilities that have lasting value), rushing to the end should be undesirable and highly problematic.


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,435
    Dullahan said:
    I don't care if it takes 3 years to hit max level. If the game is fun at early levels, and the things you accomplish matter (like items and abilities that have lasting value), rushing to the end should be undesirable and highly problematic.
    Exactly. The idea that slowing down leveling will suddenly fix the problem is just wrong. No matter how long/short it takes to level up, if it's a boring process then why bother...





  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 269
    I know I commented on it before but, because of the option of the progeny system, leveling will definitely take awhile if you choose to gain those benefits.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    edited February 2017
    Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:

    1) Small short games
    2) To get you to pay for their expansion's
  • XatshXatsh Member UncommonPosts: 383
    I would say around 200-240 hrs to get to cap level feels about right. not a helish 6month grind but long enough to make it feel worth it.

    3months of playing ~20hrs a week. Less if you hardcore grind it, more if you are a really casual player. This should be the min. in my opinion. Personally I liked FFXI, as you were leveling you had to take breaks to get required abilities, spells, armor, and so on. It was not handed to you instantly as you leveled. Would not mind the leveling taking even longer if stuff pre-endgame actually mattered in the grand scheme and was not all thrown away when you hit cap. Aka a good spell/ability quest say at level 30 that took some work to do that was important for the rest of the game forever.

    Need to keep away from the current model where you get to cap level and starting endgame gear in <40hrs of gameplay. Cough... FFxiv/WoW...... We have more then enough mmos following this model already.
  • BorlucBorluc Member UncommonPosts: 255
    Forget levels.  Make a skill system like Asherons Call.  If you need flashy lights and sounds to feel accomplishment, you have the mind of a 5 year old. 
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 269
    Xatsh said:
    I would say around 200-240 hrs to get to cap level feels about right. not a helish 6month grind but long enough to make it feel worth it.

    That seems like not even close to long enough...even when we are going to replay through the levels multiple times with the same character.  I think you are greatly underestimating even the regular active gamer.

    While I know some people on the forums have already said they are taking 2 weeks off work when the game is released, lets put a more reasonable play time on it.  Lets say 4-6 hours per day during the week and 6-8 hrs on the weekends. So to simplify 5 hrs per week day and 7 hrs per week end day. (I think that is a very reasonable average to go by)

    By your estimate of 200 -240 hrs to reach the cap, it would take the average gamer between 1-2 months to hit the lvl cap.  That is WAAAAY to fast.  I'm hoping no one on any server reaches the cap in 1-2 months (that includes people who play 18-20 hrs a day).

    If the average gamer hits the cap in a month or two something is wrong. 

    That would mean the fastest players would hit cap in less than 2 weeks.  There is no way the VR dev team can keep up with content at that rate.

     I'm thinking it should be 4 or 5X that long to level at least...(and I am planning on releveling using the progeny system multiple times).

    I guess we will see.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    A hard game doesn't equal a good game.  If I enjoy an easy game I stick with it and will level all kinds of alts.  If the game isn't good I may level a little but will leave sooner.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    DMKano said:
    Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:

    1) Small short games
    2) To get you to pay for their expansion's

    Umm no.

    To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.

    If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.

    And you figured this how ?......O-Ya...You have a special calculator no one else has.


    Small short games, that's why
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited February 2017
    DMKano said:

    Umm no.

    To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.

    If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.

    And you figured this how ?......O-Ya...You have a special calculator no one else has.


    Small short games, that's why
    Both of these posts seem like nothing more than biased conjecture. Why design anything MMO for people who play two weeks and jump ship? The average gamer doesn't go out and power grind, hitting max in two weeks....

     How is any MMORPG a small short game? Compared to what exactly?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 269
    DMKano said:
    Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:

    1) Small short games
    2) To get you to pay for their expansion's

    Umm no.

    To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.

    If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.
    Niche.  Not for everyone.  It's fine that they "bounce in a heartbeat". 

    I have been concerned ever since the whole "game you are most looking forward to in 2017" poll.  This game was never meant to cater to such a large target audience that would make it the #1 game in that poll. 

    A lot of people will be disappointed if VR ends up sticking to their guns and making the game they have promised.  A lot of us will be disappointed if they don't.  It is a no win... but I guess if you have to choose, the older, 1st gen mmorpg gamers are less likely to jump ship and be enticed by the next shiny game on the market.  They are the ones who are more likely to be playing the same game years down the line.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The thing to considering here is where you want your players to spend most of their gaming time. The last 10+ years people spend the first few weeks leveling in the open world followed be the rest of the time in the so called "endgame". The endgame usually consists of a few max level zones (usually 3 or so at launch, a few more later), some dungeons and a few raids.

    The problem with that is that it just is a small part of the games content, you complete almost all of the game in those first weeks and that hurts the games longevity. It is not the fast leveling as such that is the problem, more the design of the content. With fast leveling you should only have about 25% of the game for leveling and save the rest for the endgame.

    MMOs are however usually designed like EQ with 75-90% of the content for leveling and that only works if leveling is slow, preferably EQs speed and at least nowhere over twice that.

    So no matter what leveling speed you make for a game you need to sync that with your content so there always are enough things to explore and you don't skip past half the game. Content is expensive and it is very important that you place the content so it will give your game longevity or you get another of those fast games people spend a month in before tire of it.

    As for casual players they will have to live with that it will take them long time to max out in a game that has it content placed like most MMOs, otherwise you need a game like Guildwars where most the content was for lvl 20 (max level).

    If you do things right you can get any leveling speed fun and work long term, but devs tend to miss here and players then get stuck in a rather small endgame until next expansion hits.

    I am also personally against raising the levelcap with each expansion, it just unbalance the game, makes old content useless and get you continues stuck in a small endgame. It is fine to increase at some point but nowhere near so often as most MMOs does. It is far better to buff systems like EQ 1 & 2s AAs, GW2s masteries and similar and only raise the levelcap every third or so expansion (or every second if you make expansion larger but with longer periods between).
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,850
    edited February 2017
    I sort of agree that the trends show that the "average gamers" or "the masses" prefer games where they can achieve ingame goals by playing in shorter sessions. Games offering short session gameplay are clearly the most popular (think MOBA, FPS, some ARPGs, etc.). It does seem that these average players do not want to stick with one game for a very long time.

    What I do not understand is why so many people on this forum always have a mindset where purely business perspective comes first.

    Yes, general purpose of the business is to maximize profit. In order to achieve this objective, the developers should avoid making decisions which may discourage potential customers from buying their product (e.g. implementing a long progression curve which may require players to stick with the game for long time or to play the game in longer sessions).

    However, do you think that the only reason for developing this particular MMORPG is to generate as much profit as possible? While it could be, I do not think it is inevitably the case. To me, it seems that the developers have some sort of vision and the primary purpose of making Pantheon is to bring this vision to life.

    Am I just being naive here? Maybe.

    Nevertheless, why else would they be making a game that would nowadays be referred to as "oldschool MMORPG"? Streams, videos, and interviews I have seen indicate that they want to make a difficult game requiring players to cooperate in order to achieve ingame goals. A game that is not all about convenience and easy access to all the content. A game where your average gamers are likely to face some frustration and are unlikely to last very long, in my opinion.

    I think such game is focusing on a niche market. I doubt the developers have an ambition that the game will be played by millions or even hundreds of thousands of players. I would bet that the game will have a very long levelling / progression process. Hopefully, it will be made in a way that progressing will not be forced on you as something that you need to do in order to unlock content and that it would require performing tasks players do not enjoy at all.

    All I am saying is, forget about the masses and the average gamers for a while. 

    I am reluctant to believe that all MMOs / MMORPGs are just products made to generate as much profit as possible. In case of corporations, it clearly is the case, but there are still indie developers making games to bring a particular vision into life. I think Pantheon is one example of such game. Saga of Lucimia would be another one, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense or am I just full of **** :).
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,367
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:

    1) Small short games
    2) To get you to pay for their expansion's

    Umm no.

    To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.

    If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.

    And you figured this how ?......O-Ya...You have a special calculator no one else has.


    Small short games, that's why
    I figured it out by talking to actual people who make MMOs.
    Looking at the genre right now those people have no clue what's an MMO and how to make it fun and engaging. The problem is not the pace of leveling but the gameplay mechanics that are mostly targeted to non-MMO players to widen up the potential customer base.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,483
    Borluc said:
    Forget levels.  Make a skill system like Asherons Call.  If you need flashy lights and sounds to feel accomplishment, you have the mind of a 5 year old. 
    Tell that to all of the people who enjoy slot machines. ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,483
    DMKano said:
    Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:

    1) Small short games
    2) To get you to pay for their expansion's

    Umm no.

    To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.

    If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.
    So maybe there is no point in trying to develop content for the average gamer, since they can't be retained anyways?

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,483
    I sort of agree that the trends show that the "average gamers" or "the masses" prefer games where they can achieve ingame goals by playing in shorter sessions. Games offering short session gameplay are clearly the most popular (think MOBA, FPS, some ARPGs, etc.). It does seem that these average players do not want to stick with one game for a very long time.

    What I do not understand is why so many people on this forum always have a mindset where purely business perspective comes first.

    Yes, general purpose of the business is to maximize profit. In order to achieve this objective, the developers should avoid making decisions which may discourage potential customers from buying their product (e.g. implementing a long progression curve which may require players to stick with the game for long time or to play the game in longer sessions).

    However, do you think that the only reason for developing this particular MMORPG is to generate as much profit as possible? While it could be, I do not think it is inevitably the case. To me, it seems that the developers have some sort of vision and the primary purpose of making Pantheon is to bring this vision to life.

    Am I just being naive here? Maybe.

    Nevertheless, why else would they be making a game that would nowadays be referred to as "oldschool MMORPG"? Streams, videos, and interviews I have seen indicate that they want to make a difficult game requiring players to cooperate in order to achieve ingame goals. A game that is not all about convenience and easy access to all the content. A game where your average gamers are likely to face some frustration and are unlikely to last very long, in my opinion.

    I think such game is focusing on a niche market. I doubt the developers have an ambition that the game will be played by millions or even hundreds of thousands of players. I would bet that the game will have a very long levelling / progression process. Hopefully, it will be made in a way that progressing will not be forced on you as something that you need to do in order to unlock content and that it would require performing tasks players do not enjoy at all.

    All I am saying is, forget about the masses and the average gamers for a while. 

    I am reluctant to believe that all MMOs / MMORPGs are just products made to generate as much profit as possible. In case of corporations, it clearly is the case, but there are still indie developers making games to bring a particular vision into life. I think Pantheon is one example of such game. Saga of Lucimia would be another one, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense or am I just full of **** :).
    Actually, I think the reality is for the most part devs do create games with profit right at the top of the list, and the more the better.

    Sure, some may take the high ground and say "no lock boxes" or something, but they will have mechanics in place to promote solid financial success.

    Honestly, I work to make the most money possible while maintaining an acceptable quality of life.

    I can't begrudge game developers for doing the same.



    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,850
    Kyleran said:
    I sort of agree that the trends show that the "average gamers" or "the masses" prefer games where they can achieve ingame goals by playing in shorter sessions. Games offering short session gameplay are clearly the most popular (think MOBA, FPS, some ARPGs, etc.). It does seem that these average players do not want to stick with one game for a very long time.

    What I do not understand is why so many people on this forum always have a mindset where purely business perspective comes first.

    Yes, general purpose of the business is to maximize profit. In order to achieve this objective, the developers should avoid making decisions which may discourage potential customers from buying their product (e.g. implementing a long progression curve which may require players to stick with the game for long time or to play the game in longer sessions).

    However, do you think that the only reason for developing this particular MMORPG is to generate as much profit as possible? While it could be, I do not think it is inevitably the case. To me, it seems that the developers have some sort of vision and the primary purpose of making Pantheon is to bring this vision to life.

    Am I just being naive here? Maybe.

    Nevertheless, why else would they be making a game that would nowadays be referred to as "oldschool MMORPG"? Streams, videos, and interviews I have seen indicate that they want to make a difficult game requiring players to cooperate in order to achieve ingame goals. A game that is not all about convenience and easy access to all the content. A game where your average gamers are likely to face some frustration and are unlikely to last very long, in my opinion.

    I think such game is focusing on a niche market. I doubt the developers have an ambition that the game will be played by millions or even hundreds of thousands of players. I would bet that the game will have a very long levelling / progression process. Hopefully, it will be made in a way that progressing will not be forced on you as something that you need to do in order to unlock content and that it would require performing tasks players do not enjoy at all.

    All I am saying is, forget about the masses and the average gamers for a while. 

    I am reluctant to believe that all MMOs / MMORPGs are just products made to generate as much profit as possible. In case of corporations, it clearly is the case, but there are still indie developers making games to bring a particular vision into life. I think Pantheon is one example of such game. Saga of Lucimia would be another one, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense or am I just full of **** :).
    Actually, I think the reality is for the most part devs do create games with profit right at the top of the list, and the more the better.

    Sure, some may take the high ground and say "no lock boxes" or something, but they will have mechanics in place to promote solid financial success.

    Honestly, I work to make the most money possible while maintaining an acceptable quality of life.

    I can't begrudge game developers for doing the same.



    You are probably right.

    I just had an impression that for some of the indie developers, fruition of their vision is more important than profit due to the type of games and design choices they are making.

    Not that I thought that profit is a completely negligible element for them. 
     
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    edited February 2017
    How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?

    Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?

    How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?

    Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?

    How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?

    Why craft in a 3 week game >


    Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway.  This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!! 

    One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team :)
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Kyleran said:
    I sort of agree that the trends show that the "average gamers" or "the masses" prefer games where they can achieve ingame goals by playing in shorter sessions. Games offering short session gameplay are clearly the most popular (think MOBA, FPS, some ARPGs, etc.). It does seem that these average players do not want to stick with one game for a very long time.

    What I do not understand is why so many people on this forum always have a mindset where purely business perspective comes first.

    Yes, general purpose of the business is to maximize profit. In order to achieve this objective, the developers should avoid making decisions which may discourage potential customers from buying their product (e.g. implementing a long progression curve which may require players to stick with the game for long time or to play the game in longer sessions).

    However, do you think that the only reason for developing this particular MMORPG is to generate as much profit as possible? While it could be, I do not think it is inevitably the case. To me, it seems that the developers have some sort of vision and the primary purpose of making Pantheon is to bring this vision to life.

    Am I just being naive here? Maybe.

    Nevertheless, why else would they be making a game that would nowadays be referred to as "oldschool MMORPG"? Streams, videos, and interviews I have seen indicate that they want to make a difficult game requiring players to cooperate in order to achieve ingame goals. A game that is not all about convenience and easy access to all the content. A game where your average gamers are likely to face some frustration and are unlikely to last very long, in my opinion.

    I think such game is focusing on a niche market. I doubt the developers have an ambition that the game will be played by millions or even hundreds of thousands of players. I would bet that the game will have a very long levelling / progression process. Hopefully, it will be made in a way that progressing will not be forced on you as something that you need to do in order to unlock content and that it would require performing tasks players do not enjoy at all.

    All I am saying is, forget about the masses and the average gamers for a while. 

    I am reluctant to believe that all MMOs / MMORPGs are just products made to generate as much profit as possible. In case of corporations, it clearly is the case, but there are still indie developers making games to bring a particular vision into life. I think Pantheon is one example of such game. Saga of Lucimia would be another one, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense or am I just full of **** :).
    Actually, I think the reality is for the most part devs do create games with profit right at the top of the list, and the more the better.

    Sure, some may take the high ground and say "no lock boxes" or something, but they will have mechanics in place to promote solid financial success.

    Honestly, I work to make the most money possible while maintaining an acceptable quality of life.

    I can't begrudge game developers for doing the same.



    Yeah everyone wants to make a profit but in the MMORPG world all this has gotten us is a bunch of WoW clones that never do that well. Until developers start making games with a certain vision or play style in mind that is not just a copy of what everyone thinks is needed to be the next WoW, we see little improvement or diversity in the MMORPG area.
    If they did this in the book writing area then all new books would be Romance/erotica ( estimated  1.44 billion) and no Science Fiction (estimated 590.2 million). Note: this are estimates from the industry for I think 2012.

    I really hope that VR has a vision for the game and sticks to it and does not try and make a game to please everyone.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I sort of agree that the trends show that the "average gamers" or "the masses" prefer games where they can achieve ingame goals by playing in shorter sessions. Games offering short session gameplay are clearly the most popular (think MOBA, FPS, some ARPGs, etc.). It does seem that these average players do not want to stick with one game for a very long time.

    What I do not understand is why so many people on this forum always have a mindset where purely business perspective comes first.

    Yes, general purpose of the business is to maximize profit. In order to achieve this objective, the developers should avoid making decisions which may discourage potential customers from buying their product (e.g. implementing a long progression curve which may require players to stick with the game for long time or to play the game in longer sessions).

    However, do you think that the only reason for developing this particular MMORPG is to generate as much profit as possible? While it could be, I do not think it is inevitably the case. To me, it seems that the developers have some sort of vision and the primary purpose of making Pantheon is to bring this vision to life.

    Am I just being naive here? Maybe.

    Nevertheless, why else would they be making a game that would nowadays be referred to as "oldschool MMORPG"? Streams, videos, and interviews I have seen indicate that they want to make a difficult game requiring players to cooperate in order to achieve ingame goals. A game that is not all about convenience and easy access to all the content. A game where your average gamers are likely to face some frustration and are unlikely to last very long, in my opinion.

    I think such game is focusing on a niche market. I doubt the developers have an ambition that the game will be played by millions or even hundreds of thousands of players. I would bet that the game will have a very long levelling / progression process. Hopefully, it will be made in a way that progressing will not be forced on you as something that you need to do in order to unlock content and that it would require performing tasks players do not enjoy at all.

    All I am saying is, forget about the masses and the average gamers for a while. 

    I am reluctant to believe that all MMOs / MMORPGs are just products made to generate as much profit as possible. In case of corporations, it clearly is the case, but there are still indie developers making games to bring a particular vision into life. I think Pantheon is one example of such game. Saga of Lucimia would be another one, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense or am I just full of **** :).
    The problem generally is that "average" players tend to move towards other genres, like you said Mobas and FPS games. Also, most MMOs the last 15 years have been focused on that exact group of players, there certainly are more of them but there are also many times the games to compete with about the same players.

    So as a dev you have to consider if you should make a game that competes with few games for a smaller group of people or many games for a larger. Both those still have the potential for pretty good profits.

    But the difference between the average player and, lets call the other group MMO fans is that the first group tends to stay shorter time and invest less in a single game while the latter tend to run through content pretty fast but they are rather faithful and can play the same game for years.

    I think it is actually likelier to earn money on the smaller group here, less competition and more loyal customers that don't mind spending money to play. Of course if you make a big hit for the casuals the payback will be far larger but very few MMOs have succeeded with that, most do average and counting that you will create the next Wow is a rather risky strategy.

    As for games with long leveling time that do well BTW is Lineage still the top with over 3 million people that pays a subscription (Source: NC soft but it was about 9 months ago, might have changed since) and that game have been earning top money for 17 years now, only being beaten by Wow so it is possible to make huge bucks (or wons or whatever) on games focused on the MMO fan category.

    Now, I don't think Pantheon really is focused on earning huge sums of cash, more about a team of people who want to make a living creating a game of a style they miss today and I don't see it becoming the new Lineage or anything but if it is a good game I think it will do pretty well. There is very few games competing with it and more then a few people that wanted something like it for a long time.
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