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Anyone else want levels to take a while?

I'm not sure if the devs have spoken on this topic yet but I really hope that the level cap takes a while like it did with both the original EQ/EQ2 when it first launched. I'm so tired of playing games that allow me to achieve reach level 30 in one or two days and max level in less than a week. I want to be able to feel like the levels are an achievement even if the game feels a bit more grindey (I think grinding can be fun in groups). When I hit level cap I want to look back and remember zones and the mobs in the them like I did with EQ/EQ2. The benefit of a longer leveling curve is the ability to spend more time in zones and therefore more time soaking in the lore and building a connection with the world and the people in it. Call me crazy but I would even welcome hell levels over EZmode MMORPGs that are a dime a dozen nowadays.

I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

I'm curious what others think, post below!

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Comments

  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 3,044
    edited February 2017
    yep i think leveling should be slow , that doesnt need to mean "grind grind grind" . But i think the exp req for lvl up at near max lvl shouldnt go from 100k to 1M or something like that i prefer slower at beginning and keeping that pace rather than that faster until 30 and then slowing down until max.

    More lineal exp curve even if that means slower at every level
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    "Slow" is a relative word but I think current MMOs level you up way too fast, that means you outpace most of the content in a few weeks which is bad for longevity.

    Also, there is really no need for any dungeon runs before maxing out nowadays, you level as fast on soloquests and you don't need the gear until max level, and even if you need it the gear will be useless after a few hours gameplay.

    The question is how slow you want it, so slow and grindy that only a handful of players reach it?

    Personally I think a fifth of modern leveling speed would be about right, but with a curve that makes the first few levels really fast while the last few take a long time.

    Also, I rather not have 100 levels (the matter of levels is just something that splits up the community more or less, not to be confused with the total time it takes to reach max). Anything from 20-50 is fine but more does not make the game more fun, just harder to find a group for your current level.
  • YudoreYudore Member UncommonPosts: 9
    edited February 2017

    @Loke666
    The question is how slow you want it, so slow and grindy that only a handful of players reach it?


    Well, I don't really care how many reach it as long as it's not absolutely ridiculous. In my opinion players won't burn out if there is lore, quests, grouping, events, crafting etc. I think the timeline I mentioned in my original post is reasonable so that you have time to soak in the world, connect with players and build your character a reputation.

    I rather not have 100 levels.

    Me neither. I think 50 to start but I don't think you should just blast through the first 40 only to hit a wall later. I think it needs to be gradual, nice and slow.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,330
    edited February 2017
    Count me in. Current DAOC shard I'm playing has slow leveling, will definitely take me 2-3 months to hit 50.

    In fact there is something in our realm called "zerg experience battlegroup" where you can join up and be powerleveled.  

    My friends and I have eschewed joining it because we're more interested in making the journey as a team, playing as the designer's intended, and are enjoying our evenings together.

    So yeah, keep the journey slow and steady, with plenty of opportunities to group.

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  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,065
    Don't make leveling so slow that you drive away customers.  But don't make it so fast that you blur by and miss everything.

    My fave game, City of Heroes, had an interesting mechanic.  If you clicked on a citizen who's name started with 'M' they would tell you how many hours you had invested in a character.  They called it, 'being on patrol', but the end was the same.

    Early on, leveling was excruciatingly slow.  My first level cap took over 600 hours.  At your example rate, that would take 20-22 weeks, or about 5 months.  This was too damn slow, and even though they had a lot of content, you still ran out of missions before you capped.  Then they redid the XP rates, and capping a character took about 240 hours (if you strictly followed the questlines), depending on the class.  240 hours at your example rate is about two months, and I think that is a good rate. 

    There will always be THAT GUY, that figures out how to power level and blabs all over the internet, which will cut the rate in half.  And I have no problem with that either.  How many times can you do a main questline before you are bored of it?  Most games I invest in 4 characters; tank, healer, melee dps and usually some form of CC/ranged damage class.  After the first or second run through the questlines, I am usually ready to quicken the pace.  I enjoy the raiding/ endgame in most games, so that is what I am focused on.  For most games getting to the level cap for endgame is just the beginning!

    In short, I don't mind difficulty, especially the first time through a game.  But make it reasonable, and make some method that allows the process to speed up a bit after you have done the whole program a couple of times.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,367
    I agree with the slower progression.

    I also think content should be gated behind other content, and players should hit a brick wall from time to time if they try to skip content on purpose. Playing through lvl 20+ content, for example, should be made very hard if not impossible if you dont gear up at levels 10-15.

    Developing these games takes lots of time and money, so it would be ridiculous to let your players consume the entire content in few days or weeks. As long as the game is fun and engaging, you want it to last as long as possible.
  • YudoreYudore Member UncommonPosts: 9
    @GladDog
    240 hours at your example rate is about two months, and I think that is a good rate.
    Agreed, 2 months on the low end and 3 months on the high end.

    There will always be THAT GUY, that figures out how to power level and blabs all over the internet, which will cut the rate in half.  And I have no problem with that either. 
    Totally fine and unavoidable. Power leveling is always going to be a thing but even with power leveling it should still take a month instead of a week like with most games. If they can somehow figure out how to hit that perfect time investment to max level ratio then this game will be golden. Besides, I don't want them rushing out end game content because there are too many people sitting at max level with nothing to do after 2 weeks of playing the game although there will inevitably be a small group of players who rush to the level cap by putting in ungodly hours and even two manning characters, as I've seen with many mmorpgs at launch but that's only a fraction of the player base.

    How many times can you do a main questline before you are bored of it? 
    Well, the idea behind Pantheon is that there won't just be one interesting questline. My understanding is they want to make lots of great quests that require substantial time investment from the player. Will they deliver? Will the quests be varied enough, engaging and fun? We will see.

    Most games I invest in 4 characters; tank, healer, melee dps and usually some form of CC/ranged damage class.  After the first or second run through the questlines, I am usually ready to quicken the pace.  I enjoy the raiding/ endgame in most games, so that is what I am focused on. 
    If done right, endgame should just be an extension of the normal game. It shouldn't feel significantly more fun to be playing the game at cap level. The game should feel rewarding as you progress and endgame should simply provide a few different elements that add to the enjoyment and not something where you have to feel like that's when things get fun.

    For most games getting to the level cap for endgame is just the beginning!
    I hope Pantheon is not one of those games. The journey NEEDS to be rewarding if a long leveling curve is to work. I know it can work because it worked with EQ1/EQ2, at least it did for me.

    In short, I don't mind difficulty, especially the first time through a game.  But make it reasonable, and make some method that allows the process to speed up a bit after you have done the whole program a couple of times.
    I'm not entirely sure I agree. Reaching max level should be something you feel pride in and making it too easy the second or third time around (outside of powerleveling) cheapens the experience. The key to making the game fun every time around is to make it so you're not playing the exact same content with each character. In the original EQ all races had unique starting areas and that alone made it feel unique because the lore, zones and mobs were different. If they can do that for the first 15 to 20 levels of every class before funneling into more common zones then I think this game will do fine with keeping things fresh and interesting.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Think you find they know and are taking this on board for. Slower the better, anyone remember the xp bar in Vanguard that could slow your levelling down. 

    Not sure if you want it as slow as EQ but I wouldn't complain if it was. 

    I intend to spend years playing this game and enjoying the journey. 




  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329
    Slow as original EQ is the way to go. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,656
    Have little mini levels along the way so the more modern crowd don't get bored. For me, slower leveling is better than gaining a level for taking a first step.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    If they can provide enough varied content to make leveling last a very long time I'm totally for it. However, I'm done with games where developers think its really important that you spend lots of time repeating the same stuff over and over instead of providing players with a wide variety of interesting content.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited February 2017
    Well, in any progression-oriented MMO - I would prefer a steady pace with suitable rewards for time invested and challenges overcome.

    As such, I want the levels to last only for as long as they can keep the pace of entertaining gameplay satisfying in terms of meaningful progression and rewards.

    Taking limited progression and stretching it out for no other reason than to stretch it out wouldn't work for me, but then again, I was never a fan of the mindless EQ grind to begin with.
  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 273
    slow as eq no, 8 hrs of chain pulling non stop an still barley a half a bar of xp was not fun. not sure how it is leveling now.


    i do want slow xp but more then anything i want it to be that you don't need to be max level to enjoy half the game raids, epic quest, random chain quest for best loot, dungeons with rare cosmetics IE illusion mask, J boots.


    i don't mind if some top tier stuff req max level or rare loot is easier to get solo at max level but their should be things that make it were you don't need to rush an can enjoy things along the way. 


    level 50 is a nice number an i hope it not a rush 40 dead stop for a month trying to hit 50



  • Riotact007Riotact007 Member UncommonPosts: 240
    most games level u up way too fast. u r level 8 and get a level 8 weapon, use it for 3 mobs and u r level 10 lol. yes I'd like to enjoy a slower grind to max level so long as the quests are immersive enough to get me there. I don't want Archeage slow monotonous repeat killing mobs and no fun quests. 
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,569
    I'd go for a sliding scale. Levels 1-5 takes about an hour. 5-10 about an hour each level. 10-50 I'd be happy with anything between 5-10 hours per level, which would take 200-400 hours. I'd lean towards 10 hours per level but I'm probably in the minority on that one.

    Throw in some decent locations, farming spots, a few dungeons the likes of Blackburrow, Upper or Lower Guk, Cazic thule etc and you've got plenty of things for people to do.

    I'm far more interested in adventuring through the world than maxing my char and farming uber gear. Take in the scenery, make some new friends, learn the little nuances of your class. Spend some time crafting gear that's actually worth keeping for a change and isn't replaced in 2 hours.

    It would be nice to just relax and take some time to play through a new world again. Fingers crossed.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Yudore said:
    I'm not sure if the devs have spoken on this topic yet but I really hope that the level cap takes a while like it did with both the original EQ/EQ2 when it first launched. I'm so tired of playing games that allow me to achieve reach level 30 in one or two days and max level in less than a week. I want to be able to feel like the levels are an achievement even if the game feels a bit more grindey (I think grinding can be fun in groups). When I hit level cap I want to look back and remember zones and the mobs in the them like I did with EQ/EQ2. The benefit of a longer leveling curve is the ability to spend more time in zones and therefore more time soaking in the lore and building a connection with the world and the people in it. Call me crazy but I would even welcome hell levels over EZmode MMORPGs that are a dime a dozen nowadays.

    I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

    I'm curious what others think, post below!

    Yeah 3 months or so playing 4 to 5 hours a day is about the same as EQ was in the first year or so. I think it was a good pace. It gave you time to develop good group skills and make lots of friends in game. Actually even slower would be good if you had plenty of stuff to do. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,829
    edited February 2017
    I have given levels a great deal of thought over the years and what i feel is this..

    1 Developers tend to ignore the beginning of games after release.It becomes all about end game and what can keep vets coming back.My point is that i would rather see levels disappear or treated like years of one's life.Going down the life direction would then mean actual death,which i am ok with,especially if that means getting away from the terrible trend of end gaming.
    2 Yes if they are going to use levels ,i want them to last a long time,however doing it by giving players choice.
    First of all that CHOICE should NOT be anywhere near questing because imo,well it is not even opinion,it is fact,you should not become a better skilled class doing non related,meaningless quests.It makes no sense at all and is a long time unrealistic part of game design.

    The choice should be to simply rise in levels in a normal sense or using their old idea of locking xp so you can actually raise your skills.Skills should be much larger numbers than i have seen in the past and EVERY skill point should have a noticeable impact on gameplay.

    This removes efficient p/ling because if you have no skills,no str no dex no agi no weapon skills,you will simply be a level 50 that can't hit a bus with a 10 foot pole,but hey the choice is yours.Sp by doing things ,most in combat but does not have to be all in there,you gain points in each category,NOT by leveling your level number.
    I absolutely detest games that give you points to allot after gaining a level,it is stupid to the 10th degree.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DemogorgonDemogorgon Member UncommonPosts: 346
    To me, to make MMORPG relevant again, it should take 1000-1300hrs to reach cap. That's not including the regular road block that takes you on an epic adventure for a change of pace. 
    That's 4-5 month playing about 8 hrs a day, 7 days a week. Hardcore. 
    Some no life will do this in half the time playing an insane 16hrs a day... Nothing you can do about it really. 
    For the casuals, it would take more than a year. That's perfect!

    imho the goal is not the end, it is the journey. Simple as that.

  • YudoreYudore Member UncommonPosts: 9
    I'm glad to hear that for the most part we all agree (at least those of you posting). It seems that no one wants max level in a week and I feel this is a serious problem in many modern MMORPGs. I was actually surprised when I recently picked up FFXIV and noticed that leveling took a little longer than usual an although FFXIV is not quite the game I would hope for it to be it immediately had me more interested than the plethora of other ezmode mmos out there. It reminded me of how much more rewarding it is to play a character and log in every day, each level feeling like an accomplishment. Contrast that with something like BDO where I hit level 20 in 1 hour fighting mobs that don't fight back, with my eyes closed.
  • blastermasterblastermaster Member UncommonPosts: 259
    edited February 2017
    Since I'm a fan of the journey more than the "end game", I would vote for long levelling also.

    I'm in the same boat as Kyleran (back to DAoC,etc.) and I'm loving the slow pace.
    I've never been a fan of power levelling and always preferred exploring and discovering new places, new mobs, etc.

    I also never been a fan of "end game" because, this, to me, is a grind. You mostly grind a few instances to get gear, to give you access to a few other instances where you can grind for.. more gear..).

    While, when 'levelling up", you have a lot more to look up to.
    I only see positives in longer levelling, as long as there is enough spots/things to do at all levels.

    Oh! how I long for the "DING" to be given back its true meaning and it's feelings of joy and accomplishment.
    Post edited by blastermaster on
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,656
    Problem is no matter what you do players are going to find a way around the slow leveling curve.....I remember several games where the devs claimed it would take months to hit level cap and players were maxxed in a week.....I dont know if its cheating, botting, players that never sleep or what, but many seem to find a way around it.
  • YudoreYudore Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Problem is no matter what you do players are going to find a way around the slow leveling curve.....I remember several games where the devs claimed it would take months to hit level cap and players were maxxed in a week.....I dont know if its cheating, botting, players that never sleep or what, but many seem to find a way around it.
    There will be the hardcore group that makes it their mission to hit max level first. I see the appeal in that goal as you get to be the first to experience end game content and get gear no one else has. It's fun in its own right but form my experience these people still take time to hit max level if the game has an appropriate leveling curve. Power leveling becomes more of a thing as players gain access to buffs and items that allow their friends/alts to level at a quicker pace, which is fine. I never had an issue with bots or cheating in either EQ or EQ2. If it existed I didn't know about it, nor feel like it impacted my time in the game, of course I hope that we can avoid both in Pantheon for as long as possible.
  • cheeseheadscheeseheads Member UncommonPosts: 73
    yes, it should take 1 year to get 1 level
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    deniter said:
    I agree with the slower progression.

    I also think content should be gated behind other content, and players should hit a brick wall from time to time if they try to skip content on purpose. Playing through lvl 20+ content, for example, should be made very hard if not impossible if you dont gear up at levels 10-15.

    Developing these games takes lots of time and money, so it would be ridiculous to let your players consume the entire content in few days or weeks. As long as the game is fun and engaging, you want it to last as long as possible.
    This is my suggested solution as well. The old model where leveling automatically begets you power to then level again should not alone be enough to progress. It's especially problematic when the game throws easy upgrades at you via trivial quests.

    The process of gaining levels should be more heavily weighted on equipment, and equipment should be harder to come by. That means just because you hit level 15 wearing your hobo starter equipment, and you have 65 skill in slashing, you won't reliably be able to land attacks on a level 15 mob because your skill isn't sufficiently bolstered by your equipment (and stats). This naturally slows the pace of progression.


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,894
    Yudore said:
    <snip>
    I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.

    I'm curious what others think, post below!
    I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd.   90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours.  You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play.  So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?

    I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games.  But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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