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Death ( solutions only please )

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  • NoddenNodden Member CommonPosts: 2
    Nanfoodle said:
    I like the idea of the corpse run.

    1)    When the person that died makes it to the gravestone they then pay with experience or gold to come back alive, which also leaves the group to take a break in RL for bio or get a drink or something.  

    2)    BUT with that being said, if the group does not want to wait they could Pay the Ferryman (each member has to pay something, again gold or exp) to carry ghost of the dead person back his grave to get the dungeon crawl back on track quickly.
    Thats one of my problems with the old death system. Sometimes a wipe (especially unbalanced team) would take 1-2hrs to get back into the swing of things. You dont always have the perfect team with a cleric and CCer. The odd time the cleric died and no one was there to summon them. Again you would have a huge loss of time. Can risk be added that removes the run back time. Or do we need exp loss + run back time to add the fear of death? Can there be a new system added that speeds up the process of run back time and still keeps the core of fear of death? 

    I think adding a system just because thats how EQ1 did it, without looking at ways it can be modernized is a foolish move. Can it be done better should always be asked.

    It has to hurt. Obviously if you remove what hurts, you remove the reason for fear. Since mmos are all about investing/wasting time, what hurts will be something that takes time away from you one way or another.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    In a game based on risk versus reward, the risk factor is primarily time. The higher level you get and the more rewarding the content, the higher the risk must be. That means dying at level 5 and having to run back from the nearest city or outpost may only take a few minutes, but at level 50 in raid content, it has to take longer if the content is to be rewarding.

    Pantheon will be a group focused game and they intend for you to be able to accomplish something significant in a 2 hour window. But that doesn't mean everything in the game will follow that rule. If there is to be progressively greater rewards, there has to be progressively greater risk.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,592
    edited February 2017
    Dullahan said:
    In a game based on risk versus reward, the risk factor is primarily time. The higher level you get and the more rewarding the content, the higher the risk must be. That means dying at level 5 and having to run back from the nearest city or outpost may only take a few minutes, but at level 50 in raid content, it has to take longer if the content is to be rewarding.

    Pantheon will be a group focused game and they intend for you to be able to accomplish something significant in a 2 hour window. But that doesn't mean everything in the game will follow that rule. If there is to be progressively greater rewards, there has to be progressively greater risk.
    I found that was not the case with EQ1. Most of the risk was low level. Sometimes chaining a few bad groups in a row would end up losing a whole level. Higher levels the risk just dropped. Exp reses, corpse summons and summon player. By the time you get these tools most people knew how to play their role in a team. So chaining bad teams just didnt happen. My fear is like EQ1, the risk will all be at lower levels and it will drive off new blood.

    IMO, I think tools like exp res, corpse summons and summon player should be at lower levels. Maybe by level 10. This gives players more reasons to not only seek out classes that have these tools but also gets people playing them from the start because it will get them teams. This would add to higher levels having a better balance of classes from the get go.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    Nanfoodle said:
    Dullahan said:
    In a game based on risk versus reward, the risk factor is primarily time. The higher level you get and the more rewarding the content, the higher the risk must be. That means dying at level 5 and having to run back from the nearest city or outpost may only take a few minutes, but at level 50 in raid content, it has to take longer if the content is to be rewarding.

    Pantheon will be a group focused game and they intend for you to be able to accomplish something significant in a 2 hour window. But that doesn't mean everything in the game will follow that rule. If there is to be progressively greater rewards, there has to be progressively greater risk.
    I found that was not the case with EQ1. Most of the risk was low level. Sometimes chaining a few bad groups in a row would end up losing a whole level. Higher levels the risk just dropped. Exp reses, corpse summons and summon player. By the time you get these tools most people knew how to play their role in a team. So chaining bad teams just didnt happen. My fear is like EQ1, the risk will all be at lower levels and it will drive off new blood.

    IMO, I think tools like exp res, corpse summons and summon player should be at lower levels. Maybe by level 10. This gives players more reasons to not only seek out classes that have these tools but also gets people playing them from the start because it will get them teams. This would add to higher levels having a better balance of classes from the get go.
    I agree. Except in some extreme scenarios, things did tend to get too easy at the higher levels. Especially once you knew how to plan ahead, bind nearby, or have an additional cleric account camped in case of emergency. The exceptions were mostly in extremely dangerous raid areas.

    Even with some of the excessive conveniences I think EQ introduced, there were still some innate issues that were introduced at higher levels. The content was usually in more dangerous areas, and were further off the beaten path. That alone meant it was harder, because melee could not bind nearby and in the even of a full wipe, you all had to run back a greater distance. In some cases you even had to use corpse summoning (plat sink) or have someone feign pull or sneak pull your corpses.

    In the end though, the ability to completely mitigate the experience loss did tend to make death more punishing at low levels, even if it was usually easier to retrieve your corpse.


  • Pyde-PyperPyde-Pyper Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Dullahan said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Dullahan said:
    In a game based on risk versus reward, the risk factor is primarily time. The higher level you get and the more rewarding the content, the higher the risk must be. That means dying at level 5 and having to run back from the nearest city or outpost may only take a few minutes, but at level 50 in raid content, it has to take longer if the content is to be rewarding.

    Pantheon will be a group focused game and they intend for you to be able to accomplish something significant in a 2 hour window. But that doesn't mean everything in the game will follow that rule. If there is to be progressively greater rewards, there has to be progressively greater risk.
    I found that was not the case with EQ1. Most of the risk was low level. Sometimes chaining a few bad groups in a row would end up losing a whole level. Higher levels the risk just dropped. Exp reses, corpse summons and summon player. By the time you get these tools most people knew how to play their role in a team. So chaining bad teams just didnt happen. My fear is like EQ1, the risk will all be at lower levels and it will drive off new blood.

    IMO, I think tools like exp res, corpse summons and summon player should be at lower levels. Maybe by level 10. This gives players more reasons to not only seek out classes that have these tools but also gets people playing them from the start because it will get them teams. This would add to higher levels having a better balance of classes from the get go.
    I agree. Except in some extreme scenarios, things did tend to get too easy at the higher levels. Especially once you knew how to plan ahead, bind nearby, or have an additional cleric account camped in case of emergency. The exceptions were mostly in extremely dangerous raid areas.

    Even with some of the excessive conveniences I think EQ introduced, there were still some innate issues that were introduced at higher levels. The content was usually in more dangerous areas, and were further off the beaten path. That alone meant it was harder, because melee could not bind nearby and in the even of a full wipe, you all had to run back a greater distance. In some cases you even had to use corpse summoning (plat sink) or have someone feign pull or sneak pull your corpses.

    In the end though, the ability to completely mitigate the experience loss did tend to make death more punishing at low levels, even if it was usually easier to retrieve your corpse.
    Its called Progression you guys! This is how MMO's are meant to be. As you progress forward you gain more knowledge and experience. This knowledge and experience makes life in-game much easier. That's why at higher levels you don't feel the sting as much as someone might at a lower level. But even the most prepared high level group will feel the hard sting at times. Which servers as a reminder of where we came from and how far we have come. 
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,592
    Dullahan said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Dullahan said:
    In a game based on risk versus reward, the risk factor is primarily time. The higher level you get and the more rewarding the content, the higher the risk must be. That means dying at level 5 and having to run back from the nearest city or outpost may only take a few minutes, but at level 50 in raid content, it has to take longer if the content is to be rewarding.

    Pantheon will be a group focused game and they intend for you to be able to accomplish something significant in a 2 hour window. But that doesn't mean everything in the game will follow that rule. If there is to be progressively greater rewards, there has to be progressively greater risk.
    I found that was not the case with EQ1. Most of the risk was low level. Sometimes chaining a few bad groups in a row would end up losing a whole level. Higher levels the risk just dropped. Exp reses, corpse summons and summon player. By the time you get these tools most people knew how to play their role in a team. So chaining bad teams just didnt happen. My fear is like EQ1, the risk will all be at lower levels and it will drive off new blood.

    IMO, I think tools like exp res, corpse summons and summon player should be at lower levels. Maybe by level 10. This gives players more reasons to not only seek out classes that have these tools but also gets people playing them from the start because it will get them teams. This would add to higher levels having a better balance of classes from the get go.
    I agree. Except in some extreme scenarios, things did tend to get too easy at the higher levels. Especially once you knew how to plan ahead, bind nearby, or have an additional cleric account camped in case of emergency. The exceptions were mostly in extremely dangerous raid areas.

    Even with some of the excessive conveniences I think EQ introduced, there were still some innate issues that were introduced at higher levels. The content was usually in more dangerous areas, and were further off the beaten path. That alone meant it was harder, because melee could not bind nearby and in the even of a full wipe, you all had to run back a greater distance. In some cases you even had to use corpse summoning (plat sink) or have someone feign pull or sneak pull your corpses.

    In the end though, the ability to completely mitigate the experience loss did tend to make death more punishing at low levels, even if it was usually easier to retrieve your corpse.
    Its called Progression you guys! This is how MMO's are meant to be. As you progress forward you gain more knowledge and experience. This knowledge and experience makes life in-game much easier. That's why at higher levels you don't feel the sting as much as someone might at a lower level. But even the most prepared high level group will feel the hard sting at times. Which servers as a reminder of where we came from and how far we have come. 
    Its not just about making life easier. Back in the day with MMOs like EQ1, you started with 1 or 2 DPS skills and sometimes a buff or minor heal. Nothing that made teaming with someone worth doing so. By level 10 people would start grouping to kill static spawns and camps. The balance needed for teaming was not very strict. Skill level for level 1 was kill 10 rats. We as gamers have evolved beyond that. So have our games. 

    Watching the content for level 8-10 for Pantheon is way more in depth then anything EQ1 had at that level. They are risking much more. So the skills should be there to deal with the complex grouping needed. Also, we started out with a few skills to teach people how to play at a slow rate. Most MMOs start people with 5+ skills. Even EQ1 now, currently, has you starting with many skills. Skills you didnt used to get till higher levels. I want a "MODERN" remake of EQ1, not going back to kill 10 rats with a rusty knife. 
  • Spankster77Spankster77 Member UncommonPosts: 487
    There "was" nothing wrong with the old system.  However, today's MMO gamer can't handle systems like 1/2 hour corpse runs, lootable bodies, and XP losses.  

    Today's gamer isn't yesterdays gamer and the masses don't play MMOs for the MM experience they play them as single player RPGs where their time is apparently super precious even though they are wasting it playing a video game, I know sounds strange, but I digress. I don't remember the last time in any MMO that a group got together and just wen't exploring and just went and did some nonsense like back in the day when you guys wondered around and did nothing but had fun doing it.  Now a days it seems that everyone that plays MMOs has very specific goals set that need to be accomplished during their time in pretend land.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017

    Its called Progression you guys! This is how MMO's are meant to be. As you progress forward you gain more knowledge and experience. This knowledge and experience makes life in-game much easier. That's why at higher levels you don't feel the sting as much as someone might at a lower level. But even the most prepared high level group will feel the hard sting at times. Which servers as a reminder of where we came from and how far we have come. 
    I'm all for progression, as long as the power it provides never completely mitigates loss. You want to give some convenience, but 96% resurrection was too far, imo. I personally hope there is never a point in Pantheon where I stop worrying about dying, like was often the case in EQ. I want that tension that exists at low levels to be ever present.


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    edited February 2017
    Nodden said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I like the idea of the corpse run.

    1)    When the person that died makes it to the gravestone they then pay with experience or gold to come back alive, which also leaves the group to take a break in RL for bio or get a drink or something.  

    2)    BUT with that being said, if the group does not want to wait they could Pay the Ferryman (each member has to pay something, again gold or exp) to carry ghost of the dead person back his grave to get the dungeon crawl back on track quickly.
    Thats one of my problems with the old death system. Sometimes a wipe (especially unbalanced team) would take 1-2hrs to get back into the swing of things. You dont always have the perfect team with a cleric and CCer. The odd time the cleric died and no one was there to summon them. Again you would have a huge loss of time. Can risk be added that removes the run back time. Or do we need exp loss + run back time to add the fear of death? Can there be a new system added that speeds up the process of run back time and still keeps the core of fear of death? 

    I think adding a system just because thats how EQ1 did it, without looking at ways it can be modernized is a foolish move. Can it be done better should always be asked.

    It has to hurt. Obviously if you remove what hurts, you remove the reason for fear. Since mmos are all about investing/wasting time, what hurts will be something that takes time away from you one way or another.
    Yea but its not a good solution if you make it so you gotta stay 3 hours longer in raid recovery than you planned for or else lose all your gear AND feel like you let your raid down making it harder for them to recover their gear.  There should be pain alright - but not "everything you got" and not "you owe us as much time as it takes".  A moderate XP penalty is fine (even the possibility of level loss), but gear loss is not.
  • infiniti70infiniti70 Member UncommonPosts: 73
    One of the things I loved in EQ1 was the some classes were a living part of the economy. Ports cost money, SOW cost money. Players were rewarded for skill development so to speak. I would love to see each class have a skill, not a craft, but a skill that can earn them coin. 

    That said, I would keep the original EQ model for death but maybe give the Shaman a "soul tether" skill that acts like a secondary bind point. Shaman would not even need to be part of the raid. It could be a guildie lending a hand, or just a paid contact with another player. This would be wipe insurance, so to speak.

    Rangers could charge for a corpse retrieval, basically bring the body back home for you. With their tracking ability, they may be the only class capable of doing it, so they have a skill they can get paid for. 

    Just like paying for a port, someone can pay someone to do what they can't or don't have time for. Just another skill line to develop that has a true need in the world. Higher the skill, more effective. Lower "soul tethering" skill may mean less possible tether; lower tracking may mean can't find the body,...

    Basically I would prefer solutions be in the hands of the players, not some game mechanic. All classes should have a skill line that is for helping or assisting others.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,850
    edited February 2017
    Potential? My gut says a 7/10 if we are lucky.btw a 7 is pretty darn good rating,there is no game on the market higher than a 7.

    I look around game after game and all  i see is the same garbage,nothing i want to spend a single second in.I fear this game likely will fall into "some"of  the same ideals as every other mmorpg....

    These are the current trends in mmorpg games right now
    1 "seasons" i puke when i see this term.
    2 "dailies" dumb idea that has NOTHING to do with role playing.
    3 yellow,red,orange markers over top npc heads...immersion gone right out the window.
    4 LINEAR,nobody gets to play THEIR game,you have to play follow the leader from one meaningless quest to the next.
    5 Levels,,wtf does a level actually mean in a role playing sense?
    6 point systems,gain a level get some points to spend,totally ridiculous and not plausible to a role playing game.I have never walked out my front door and thought WHOA i have some points to spend on my STR and INT.
    7 END game  grrrr
    8 Raiding,seems your not one of the big boys unless your game can use this term.
    9 Itemization gone wrong....drops that make no sense.Mob is swinging an axe but drops a sword.
    10 Cash shops,,,cya later immersion,game ruined by some FAKE economy in the sky.
    11 Ridiculous looking ARPG type combat,that is an instant message for me to delete the game.

    The problem is that developers seem to have no clue how to bring a world to life and keep it plausible.So they just keep tossing in ideas they see everyone else doing and call it a NEW game.PLEASE can one developer think and think for themselves without copying so many bad ideas.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357
    svann said:
    Nodden said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I like the idea of the corpse run.

    1)    When the person that died makes it to the gravestone they then pay with experience or gold to come back alive, which also leaves the group to take a break in RL for bio or get a drink or something.  

    2)    BUT with that being said, if the group does not want to wait they could Pay the Ferryman (each member has to pay something, again gold or exp) to carry ghost of the dead person back his grave to get the dungeon crawl back on track quickly.
    Thats one of my problems with the old death system. Sometimes a wipe (especially unbalanced team) would take 1-2hrs to get back into the swing of things. You dont always have the perfect team with a cleric and CCer. The odd time the cleric died and no one was there to summon them. Again you would have a huge loss of time. Can risk be added that removes the run back time. Or do we need exp loss + run back time to add the fear of death? Can there be a new system added that speeds up the process of run back time and still keeps the core of fear of death? 

    I think adding a system just because thats how EQ1 did it, without looking at ways it can be modernized is a foolish move. Can it be done better should always be asked.

    It has to hurt. Obviously if you remove what hurts, you remove the reason for fear. Since mmos are all about investing/wasting time, what hurts will be something that takes time away from you one way or another.
    Yea but its not a good solution if you make it so you gotta stay 3 hours longer in raid recovery than you planned for or else lose all your gear AND feel like you let your raid down making it harder for them to recover their gear.  There should be pain alright - but not "everything you got" and not "you owe us as much time as it takes".  A moderate XP penalty is fine (even the possibility of level loss), but gear loss is not.
    One solution to your scenario would be to lengthen the time players had to recover their corpses, perhaps to several days.

    Still have to go retrieve them, but allows for planning and avoid errors made by overly tired players.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    edited February 2017
    There has to be a happy medium where the game does have enough death penalty so people dont thoughtlessly zerg everything but yet people dont feel like the game is setup to punish risk taking.

    If you never die then you arent taking any risks.
    Post edited by svann on
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,526
    One thing most people who call for corpse loss failed to suffer from was actually losing a corpse. 

    Going from raid guild status to losing all of your primary gear (and possibly being kicked out of the guild because now you are a boat anchor at best) is very often a "I'm done with the game" situation. 

    Actual losing of a corpse most often happens due to life or power loss rather than people not being willing to spend the time required. 

    In a game where you can spend hundreds of hours gathering together a set of gear for progression, losing it all is too harsh a penalty.
  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    edited February 2017
    I doubt that's something to worry about.


  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    centkin said:
    One thing most people who call for corpse loss failed to suffer from was actually losing a corpse. 

    Going from raid guild status to losing all of your primary gear (and possibly being kicked out of the guild because now you are a boat anchor at best) is very often a "I'm done with the game" situation. 

    Actual losing of a corpse most often happens due to life or power loss rather than people not being willing to spend the time required. 

    In a game where you can spend hundreds of hours gathering together a set of gear for progression, losing it all is too harsh a penalty.
    I am sure this is not going to be a problem in this game. They will have a graveyard or something as a last chance to get your corpse.
     I died in Hate in EQ1 once due to internet going down and it was down long enough that I was close to losing my corpse but once I got online, I found which guild was next in line to go to Hate. I did not know anyone in the guild but they actually put the effort in to start the raid earlier than they had planed so that I could get it in time. 
     The only other time I had a problem getting my corpse was due to a dungeon getting bugged with a mass of mobs stuck at the zone. I am sure I could have got my corpse long before it was near time out when more people were online but another group with the guild leader of a zerg style guild in it came by and ignored my warning. Needless to say he died and lots of them were online and after sending in 6+ groups they either killed the mobs or crashed the zone one. Anyway I was able to get my corpse.
     We did have one person lose their corpse due to real life issues and we did not kicked them from the guild but helped them get new equipment. 
     If I was in a guild that kicked someone out because they lost their corpse due to some unavoidable issue, I would leave and look for a better guild.
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