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Death ( solutions only please )

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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,833
    I want plausible realism/ideas.
    Get rid of the term death altogether,players never die,so just stop .

    Instead called it a KO'd or downed player.Then you go from there deciding how that could mimic a realistic scenario.

    Forget pvp because that is not something i want to even talk about in a rpg.In a realistic scenario,if you followed a group of players into a dark deep dungeon and say 3 of those players were KO'd,you would expect the remaining 3 would have a tough time of it.

    So in that respect ,your party would ALL suffer as expected.So what should happen when a player falls unconscious?I say you would be injured depending on a few ideas,either use RNG or some specific sub program to determine what type of injury.The result would be loss of agility,loss of dexterity,loss of hp max,loss of carrying capacity,loss or movement speed etc etc.The length of time should show diminishing results,so perhaps 2-3 mins at 50%,another 2-3 at 75% then back to full health.

    As to xp loss,i fully believe it is a plausible,realistic way to mimic a true scenario upon being KO'd.
    If you have 2 players both playing the exact same way,same quests,same killing,same xp all the way.Ok one dies 20x and the other never,so how could anyone possibly equate the two players as being the same because they are NOT.That is how XP mimics realism,it sets the less experienced player  back to where he belongs.You should NEVER reward players for being bad or even being too risky if all they are doing is dying.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    I have no problem with EQ's style of death penalty. Especially when we have countless MMOs now that play like an FPS where you simply respawn and head right back into action without a care in the world. In my opinion, THAT is a problem with today's MMOs. If I know Brad, he isn't going to listen to any type of shenanigans that go against old school game mechanics. He knows EQ was and still is a good MMO.

    Why is a death penalty such a huge problem? It's there to create a sense of danger. If anything, cheap and useless death penalties lead to a boring gaming atmosphere. What we need in MMOs now is more excitement, not less. If you can't handle EQ style death penalties, then be more careful. Put that sandwich down, turn off that movie and pay attention to the game for once. I for one am tired of today's MMO snooze raids where you can fall asleep during a raid.

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    I played EQ from beta to right before the 4th expansion. I don't remember death being that big of an issue. I only remember two deaths on all my characters, I am sure I probably had more but they were no big deal. One was on a real early dragon raid, had no real issue getting my body back but i do remember it. The other was due to a game bug which the GM in EQ refused to address which was the only one that was difficult to recover. The rest were apparently no big deal. The death penalty did make me be more careful and plan out things before I jumped in. I think the EQ style death penalty is fine with the added benefit of having the corpse show up in a graveyard after a certain amount of time with a much higher experience and cash penalty than if you recovered the corpse yourself. 

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,537
    DMKano said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I have no problem with EQ's style of death penalty. Especially when we have countless MMOs now that play like an FPS where you simply respawn and head right back into action without a care in the world. In my opinion, THAT is a problem with today's MMOs. If I know Brad, he isn't going to listen to any type of shenanigans that go against old school game mechanics. He knows EQ was and still is a good MMO.

    Why is a death penalty such a huge problem? It's there to create a sense of danger. If anything, cheap and useless death penalties lead to a boring gaming atmosphere. What we need in MMOs now is more excitement, not less. If you can't handle EQ style death penalties, then be more careful. Put that sandwich down, turn off that movie and pay attention to the game for once. I for one am tired of today's MMO snooze raids where you can fall asleep during a raid.


    Its about money - what features will bring in more money to Brads team?

    EQ1 was a great game -right now the majority of current supporters are EQ1 vets so it makes more sense to cater to the current crowd.

    But as years pass and its time to capture a wider audience - does it makes sense to relax some of the systems that are more acceptable to a larger playerbase at the risk of upsetting the core original supporters?

    The answer is almost always yes (talking pure money/business perspective here)
    I think there is a fine line that could be walked to makes the old school fans happy and also reap a % of new blood. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Mendel said:
    then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement. 

    No matter how many times you repeat this, it will not suddenly become true.
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/


  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    Nanfoodle said:
    DMKano said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I have no problem with EQ's style of death penalty. Especially when we have countless MMOs now that play like an FPS where you simply respawn and head right back into action without a care in the world. In my opinion, THAT is a problem with today's MMOs. If I know Brad, he isn't going to listen to any type of shenanigans that go against old school game mechanics. He knows EQ was and still is a good MMO.

    Why is a death penalty such a huge problem? It's there to create a sense of danger. If anything, cheap and useless death penalties lead to a boring gaming atmosphere. What we need in MMOs now is more excitement, not less. If you can't handle EQ style death penalties, then be more careful. Put that sandwich down, turn off that movie and pay attention to the game for once. I for one am tired of today's MMO snooze raids where you can fall asleep during a raid.


    Its about money - what features will bring in more money to Brads team?

    EQ1 was a great game -right now the majority of current supporters are EQ1 vets so it makes more sense to cater to the current crowd.

    But as years pass and its time to capture a wider audience - does it makes sense to relax some of the systems that are more acceptable to a larger playerbase at the risk of upsetting the core original supporters?

    The answer is almost always yes (talking pure money/business perspective here)
    I think there is a fine line that could be walked to makes the old school fans happy and also reap a % of new blood. 
    Well, I guarantee you, when you have a vision and you set out to create a particular product and then suddenly start changing your mind, you WILL lose respect from your core fans. You know what happens to MMOs that veer off the main path trying to attract new customers? A game that tries to please everyone and again, stuff like THAT will cause your game to fail because anyone and everyone that's played MMOs knows, you will NEVER please everyone.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,537
    edited January 2017
    Rhoklaw said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    DMKano said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I have no problem with EQ's style of death penalty. Especially when we have countless MMOs now that play like an FPS where you simply respawn and head right back into action without a care in the world. In my opinion, THAT is a problem with today's MMOs. If I know Brad, he isn't going to listen to any type of shenanigans that go against old school game mechanics. He knows EQ was and still is a good MMO.

    Why is a death penalty such a huge problem? It's there to create a sense of danger. If anything, cheap and useless death penalties lead to a boring gaming atmosphere. What we need in MMOs now is more excitement, not less. If you can't handle EQ style death penalties, then be more careful. Put that sandwich down, turn off that movie and pay attention to the game for once. I for one am tired of today's MMO snooze raids where you can fall asleep during a raid.


    Its about money - what features will bring in more money to Brads team?

    EQ1 was a great game -right now the majority of current supporters are EQ1 vets so it makes more sense to cater to the current crowd.

    But as years pass and its time to capture a wider audience - does it makes sense to relax some of the systems that are more acceptable to a larger playerbase at the risk of upsetting the core original supporters?

    The answer is almost always yes (talking pure money/business perspective here)
    I think there is a fine line that could be walked to makes the old school fans happy and also reap a % of new blood. 
    Well, I guarantee you, when you have a vision and you set out to create a particular product and then suddenly start changing your mind, you WILL lose respect from your core fans. You know what happens to MMOs that veer off the main path trying to attract new customers? A game that tries to please everyone and again, stuff like THAT will cause your game to fail because anyone and everyone that's played MMOs knows, you will NEVER please everyone.
    If an MMO cant keep up with the times it will fail. Im not saying remove core values but there is always ways to try and make old systems have modern twists. Making core fans ok with the changes and bringing in new gamers. A creative team can find ways to walk that line. Teams that cant, will make their product suffer. In the end failing even the core fans as they wont have a game to play. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I have no problem with EQ's style of death penalty. Especially when we have countless MMOs now that play like an FPS where you simply respawn and head right back into action without a care in the world. In my opinion, THAT is a problem with today's MMOs. If I know Brad, he isn't going to listen to any type of shenanigans that go against old school game mechanics. He knows EQ was and still is a good MMO.

    Why is a death penalty such a huge problem? It's there to create a sense of danger. If anything, cheap and useless death penalties lead to a boring gaming atmosphere. What we need in MMOs now is more excitement, not less. If you can't handle EQ style death penalties, then be more careful. Put that sandwich down, turn off that movie and pay attention to the game for once. I for one am tired of today's MMO snooze raids where you can fall asleep during a raid.


    Its about money - what features will bring in more money to Brads team?

    EQ1 was a great game -right now the majority of current supporters are EQ1 vets so it makes more sense to cater to the current crowd.

    But as years pass and its time to capture a wider audience - does it makes sense to relax some of the systems that are more acceptable to a larger playerbase at the risk of upsetting the core original supporters?

    The answer is almost always yes (talking pure money/business perspective here)
    Sounds like your business experience is limited. Part of establishing a strong brand is creating a product or service to fill a void in the market. As a small business, to compromise or emulate your competition is suicide. You simply cannot hope to outperform billion dollar companies with their own product.

    Due to the lack of such a game, the classic MMO model will do just fine in the current market. Most of the people playing MMOs, and will be playing Pantheon, were not even playing MMORPGs when EQ was popular. As such, it will be fresh to them and hearken back to a better model for others.

    Why people still insist that its necessary to emulate struggling mainstream MMOs in 2017, is beyond me.


  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    edited January 2017
    I beta tested vanguard for a year IMO the game was more fun at the start of beta than it was near the end.  I think in that game they listened too much to the people complaining in the forums and kept on changing things to try and please everyone. The result was a game that was not finished at release and failed. I hope they stick to the vision in this game and have a polished fun game at release. 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,896
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement. 

    No matter how many times you repeat this, it will not suddenly become true.
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
    Its perfectly fine if you want to quote promises.  I haven't seen anything new in the streams, the closest to hands-on I've had so far.  It's perfectly fine if you've chosen to believe the promises.  I haven't.  I will remain skeptical about any games marketing until I can see it in action.

    Since the quoted statement of mine is my opinion, it is already true for me.  That's the nature of opinions.  Because you don't share my view doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  Have I seen hard evidence of improved death penalties?  Nope.  Return to bind and run back was the model for EQ1 on day one.

    Brad made EQ1.  Then Vanguard.  Now Pantheon.  I do not see any attempt to make a significant deviation from the formula he knows, based on what I have seen.  That's my observation.  I did not project my opinion as a fact, nor attempt to attribute this to others, nor even applicable to others.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Mendel said:
    Dullahan said:
    Mendel said:
    then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement. 

    No matter how many times you repeat this, it will not suddenly become true.
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
    Its perfectly fine if you want to quote promises.  I haven't seen anything new in the streams, the closest to hands-on I've had so far.  It's perfectly fine if you've chosen to believe the promises.  I haven't.  I will remain skeptical about any games marketing until I can see it in action.

    Since the quoted statement of mine is my opinion, it is already true for me.  That's the nature of opinions.  Because you don't share my view doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  Have I seen hard evidence of improved death penalties?  Nope.  Return to bind and run back was the model for EQ1 on day one.

    Brad made EQ1.  Then Vanguard.  Now Pantheon.  I do not see any attempt to make a significant deviation from the formula he knows, based on what I have seen.  That's my observation.  I did not project my opinion as a fact, nor attempt to attribute this to others, nor even applicable to others.
    Everything on that list has been shown in live streams, in at least an early form. The only exception would be the progeny system.

    Yes, they are sticking to the same underlying design. No one would argue otherwise. There are, however, new features on top of that design. If you don't "believe" it, then you aren't paying attention.


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    edited January 2017
    A healer should be able to bring you back to life with a minimum penalty involved.  I like those stones in GW2 that can bring you back, so if you're somewhere that took awhile to get to you don't have to do the whole thing all over again to get back there, or if the whole group wipes, there's a way to bring them back.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    DMKano said:
    I say XP loss on death.

    That's it.

    Naked corpse runs are punitive enough to make for a timid player base afraid of taking big risks, and IMO that's not good. I think this was fine 15 years ago, but I honestly would hate to do naked corpse runs today. I don't have time for that.

    So you die, you lose XP - perfect system for Pantheon IMO.

    Maybe pay some coin on death too - so it's a money sink as well.

    Having to run accross the world naked in a game without fast travel - just no, I have better use of my time

    All of the above is 100% my personal preference - please don't take it as gospel
    I think SWG had a better system.  Your gear broke over time and over several deaths.   Yea you could and did have several sets of gear.  Plus look at the stat punishments where you needed a Doctor to heal you and a Dancer.   XP loss can get old.  At least with SWG you made sure you had a friend who as a Doctor and a Friend who was a Dancer, and you made DAM sure you had friends who could craft you gear.  Death was a Social thing because if you didnt have friends, sitting in that cantina or hospital for hours to remove your stat penalties was a bitch.  Plus shopping for good gear that didnt cost you an arm and a leg.   
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The interdepency is the key, like in SWG. Though I don't really like the idea of being able to ever restore all experience through resurrection spells. That was something I felt EQ did wrong. By the time you were in your 50s, you were almost always able to get a rez in short order, especially if you had a guild. That ended up removing the death penalty almost entirely.

    Players should always gain access to greater power and some convenience (teleports, movement buffs, resurrection) as they level, but it should never trivialize the way the game plays altogether. The difference between EQ as a level 20 and as a level 60 was almost a night and day difference because those benefits became too extreme.

    I think a 50% exp restoration would be about as high as it goes. If there was anything beyond 50%, it should require expensive reagents.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,338
    Whatever way they come up with, where (a) death is more than a mere inconvenience, and (b) the fear of death hangs over my adventure, will be fine by me. I liked how EQ did it. But I am open to other options that meet the previous two criteria. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,308
    Mendel said:
    Warlyx said:
    Pantheon is marketed for old and new players alike right?

    New players:

    Wont play with a system like old eq , corpse runs , losing gear , exp ....none of that will work for them.

    Old players

    how old are we? , we arent in college anymore.

    corpse runs is a no-no , losing exp ugh that can be dangerous too ....we all make mistakes , have a bad day , lag , DC , or w/e ....and isnt only pugs , a full guild group can be as bad if not worse ....

    i just want to have fun , w/o feeling like im in 1999 when i die , or wasting my 2h night of play time recoviring a corpse or getting the exp lost back ....that will put me off the game



    Oh well perhaps this isn't the game for you because I suspect most of the followers disagree. 

    Pantheon is being made for a niche player base who want that old EQ feel and mechanics. Yes they can be improved but thats what most want. 

    Yes the game is welcoming new players but it's welcoming them to try out this type of mmo which goes back to the roots of what mmo's were. 

    The devs are not going to sacrifice that to appease the fickle new mmo player who want more of the same mmo tripe we have been serve up for years. 

    I don't know, @SavageHorizon.  There are times when I think that the developers may be on to something -- that MMORPGs have strayed too far from their roots -- then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement.  Whether this formula will prove successful or not is yet to be determined.  My suspicion is that the 'niche' market won't be large enough to sustain this kind of product and a return to the harsh ideas and mechanisms that have softened over the years will eventually drive people, both old and new, away.  Not accommodating that 'fickle new mmo player' is likely to be a strategic mistake, and the bulk of their income may simply walk to that 'mmo tripe'. 


    there are a lot of assumptions in your post, just how do you know that Pantheon will only have features from EQ1 and vanguard?

    if you read any of the Q&A's you can definitely sense that they are indeed taking things from EQ1 and possibly vanguard but also they are trying new things as well.

    for example, the way BM was talking about how levels and progression works, it sounded different than both EQ1 and vanguard.

    Brad McQuaid: We’re looking into ‘horizontal progression,’ which means fewer, but more meaningful levels. Every level is going to count and be memorable. We’re going to get more details out to you as it nears completion in the initial design phase. 

    Brad McQuaid: Many MMOs do focus on shorter quests and more quests.  Usually there are multiple quest hubs, and players travel from one to another to advance.  We’ve worked on games like that and while they certainly have their merit, with Pantheon we want to reach back into the past and bring forward the open worlds that were so popular.  We believe many players are looking for MMOs that are more of a sandbox and less of a game that makes you feel like you’re on rails, going from one quest or story and then to the next 
    the fact that he mentions they think players want more of a sandbox and less on rails tells you right there that they are not just going to implement features from vanguard and EQ1.

    i'm not totally sold on this game either but lets not base opinion off of pure speculation and very likely incorrect speculation at that.




  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
      In early EQ you didn't really worry about getting a res for experience recover as they didn't cap experience so after a while you had a big experience buffer over 50. I though then if you got one it was like upper 90's % experience recovery on a res.
      I think its fine to not give as much exp back on a res but without the excess buffer we had in early EQ, it could be bad on early raids where deaths were frequent until you figured out the zone. I remember a few instances where people had just gain the level needed for a raid zone and then died a lot and could not get back in to recover their corpse. That was not good.  
     Maybe not as much experience on res but not allow you to lose a level. Of course if they don't have some other expensive loss on death like corpse recover then that could be exploited.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,896
    edited January 2017
    baphamet said:
    Mendel said:
    Warlyx said:
    Pantheon is marketed for old and new players alike right?

    New players:

    Wont play with a system like old eq , corpse runs , losing gear , exp ....none of that will work for them.

    Old players

    how old are we? , we arent in college anymore.

    corpse runs is a no-no , losing exp ugh that can be dangerous too ....we all make mistakes , have a bad day , lag , DC , or w/e ....and isnt only pugs , a full guild group can be as bad if not worse ....

    i just want to have fun , w/o feeling like im in 1999 when i die , or wasting my 2h night of play time recoviring a corpse or getting the exp lost back ....that will put me off the game



    Oh well perhaps this isn't the game for you because I suspect most of the followers disagree. 

    Pantheon is being made for a niche player base who want that old EQ feel and mechanics. Yes they can be improved but thats what most want. 

    Yes the game is welcoming new players but it's welcoming them to try out this type of mmo which goes back to the roots of what mmo's were. 

    The devs are not going to sacrifice that to appease the fickle new mmo player who want more of the same mmo tripe we have been serve up for years. 

    I don't know, @SavageHorizon.  There are times when I think that the developers may be on to something -- that MMORPGs have strayed too far from their roots -- then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement.  Whether this formula will prove successful or not is yet to be determined.  My suspicion is that the 'niche' market won't be large enough to sustain this kind of product and a return to the harsh ideas and mechanisms that have softened over the years will eventually drive people, both old and new, away.  Not accommodating that 'fickle new mmo player' is likely to be a strategic mistake, and the bulk of their income may simply walk to that 'mmo tripe'. 


    there are a lot of assumptions in your post, just how do you know that Pantheon will only have features from EQ1 and vanguard?

    if you read any of the Q&A's you can definitely sense that they are indeed taking things from EQ1 and possibly vanguard but also they are trying new things as well.

    for example, the way BM was talking about how levels and progression works, it sounded different than both EQ1 and vanguard.

    Brad McQuaid: We’re looking into ‘horizontal progression,’ which means fewer, but more meaningful levels. Every level is going to count and be memorable. We’re going to get more details out to you as it nears completion in the initial design phase. 

    Brad McQuaid: Many MMOs do focus on shorter quests and more quests.  Usually there are multiple quest hubs, and players travel from one to another to advance.  We’ve worked on games like that and while they certainly have their merit, with Pantheon we want to reach back into the past and bring forward the open worlds that were so popular.  We believe many players are looking for MMOs that are more of a sandbox and less of a game that makes you feel like you’re on rails, going from one quest or story and then to the next 
    the fact that he mentions they think players want more of a sandbox and less on rails tells you right there that they are not just going to implement features from vanguard and EQ1.

    i'm not totally sold on this game either but lets not base opinion off of pure speculation and very likely incorrect speculation at that.

    This reply applies to both @Dullahan and @baphamet.  I can't get the multi-quote feature to work.

    Many of the promises they have made are not visible, at least as far as the streams have shown so far.  I do not recall seeing any evidence of the "Living Codex" (special drops of spells/abilities) nor the "Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups".  We've not seen much of equipment from the videos, and there hasn't been much in the way of gear swapping, much less "Situational Gear".  I haven't seen any evidence of any effect of the "Atmosphere/Climate System" on the characters.

    What has been shown is an auto-attack system where the group dynamic revolves around restricting (via pulling or CC tactics) the active number of opponents to 1, with 1 character holding the opponents attention while a healer attempts to keep them alive, with all available hands beating on that one opponent until dead. 

    At this point, the list of promises is mostly that -- promises.  This may be a design philosophy, but it does not show up in a tangible way in the videos.  Many of the promises are concepts that may never have any observable effect.  Without an observable effect, these become marketing / advertising mechanisms, and are very subject to subjective interpretation, many of which we have seen before (group/social orientation, varied NPC behavior, etc.)

    I'm suggesting that confusing 'words on a website' with 'code in a game' is only going to cause disappointment.  My opinion is based on my observation of available material.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Pyde-PyperPyde-Pyper Member UncommonPosts: 32
    @Mendel

    PRE-PRE-Alpha.......... I'll say it again. Pre-Pre-Alpha.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,896
    @Mendel

    PRE-PRE-Alpha.......... I'll say it again. Pre-Pre-Alpha.
    I'm one of those with cautionary flags out.  Your message might be more apt to those blindly praising everything about this game.

    And... pre-pre-alpha with /dance animations?  What does that say about the priorities?

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • OukbokOukbok Member CommonPosts: 1
    i liked the eq1 system a lot
  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 877
    Best death panelty I've seen is partial XP debt (maybe with a slight loss), e.g. CoH / CoV... it strikes a good balance between not too punishing (like losing gear / items / a level / lots of gold / a big debuff) for a single death, and adding up quickly if you die a lot in quick succession.

    Also, making it only a partial debt (i.e. 50-75% reduced XP gain while in debt) is better than having a full debt (that you need to completely pay off before being allowed to continue) becuase you can make the debt significant (and possibly multiply with each death) without ever totally impeading progress.

    This of course assumes that it takes significant time (i.e. months - years) to get to level cap and / or there is some form of XP at level cap that is always valuable.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Mendel said:
    @Mendel

    PRE-PRE-Alpha.......... I'll say it again. Pre-Pre-Alpha.
    I'm one of those with cautionary flags out.  Your message might be more apt to those blindly praising everything about this game.

    And... pre-pre-alpha with /dance animations?  What does that say about the priorities?
    Dance animations came with the original character models purchased from the Unity store, I believe.


  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    Ishkal said:
    There has never been anything wrong with the death penalty systems. If you die suck it up for being badz and get better.
    You probably didnt group much.  Most deaths are caused by other idiots.  Did not just call you an idiot.  Was talking about the other idiots.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Mendel said:
    baphamet said:
    Mendel said:
    Warlyx said:
    Pantheon is marketed for old and new players alike right?

    New players:

    Wont play with a system like old eq , corpse runs , losing gear , exp ....none of that will work for them.

    Old players

    how old are we? , we arent in college anymore.

    corpse runs is a no-no , losing exp ugh that can be dangerous too ....we all make mistakes , have a bad day , lag , DC , or w/e ....and isnt only pugs , a full guild group can be as bad if not worse ....

    i just want to have fun , w/o feeling like im in 1999 when i die , or wasting my 2h night of play time recoviring a corpse or getting the exp lost back ....that will put me off the game



    Oh well perhaps this isn't the game for you because I suspect most of the followers disagree. 

    Pantheon is being made for a niche player base who want that old EQ feel and mechanics. Yes they can be improved but thats what most want. 

    Yes the game is welcoming new players but it's welcoming them to try out this type of mmo which goes back to the roots of what mmo's were. 

    The devs are not going to sacrifice that to appease the fickle new mmo player who want more of the same mmo tripe we have been serve up for years. 

    I don't know, @SavageHorizon.  There are times when I think that the developers may be on to something -- that MMORPGs have strayed too far from their roots -- then I think that Pantheon's development is following the only path that Brad understands -- reproducing EQ1 / Vanguard without any features from 20 years of evolution / improvement.  Whether this formula will prove successful or not is yet to be determined.  My suspicion is that the 'niche' market won't be large enough to sustain this kind of product and a return to the harsh ideas and mechanisms that have softened over the years will eventually drive people, both old and new, away.  Not accommodating that 'fickle new mmo player' is likely to be a strategic mistake, and the bulk of their income may simply walk to that 'mmo tripe'. 


    there are a lot of assumptions in your post, just how do you know that Pantheon will only have features from EQ1 and vanguard?

    if you read any of the Q&A's you can definitely sense that they are indeed taking things from EQ1 and possibly vanguard but also they are trying new things as well.

    for example, the way BM was talking about how levels and progression works, it sounded different than both EQ1 and vanguard.

    Brad McQuaid: We’re looking into ‘horizontal progression,’ which means fewer, but more meaningful levels. Every level is going to count and be memorable. We’re going to get more details out to you as it nears completion in the initial design phase. 

    Brad McQuaid: Many MMOs do focus on shorter quests and more quests.  Usually there are multiple quest hubs, and players travel from one to another to advance.  We’ve worked on games like that and while they certainly have their merit, with Pantheon we want to reach back into the past and bring forward the open worlds that were so popular.  We believe many players are looking for MMOs that are more of a sandbox and less of a game that makes you feel like you’re on rails, going from one quest or story and then to the next 
    the fact that he mentions they think players want more of a sandbox and less on rails tells you right there that they are not just going to implement features from vanguard and EQ1.

    i'm not totally sold on this game either but lets not base opinion off of pure speculation and very likely incorrect speculation at that.

    This reply applies to both @Dullahan and @baphamet.  I can't get the multi-quote feature to work.

    Many of the promises they have made are not visible, at least as far as the streams have shown so far.  I do not recall seeing any evidence of the "Living Codex" (special drops of spells/abilities) nor the "Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups".  We've not seen much of equipment from the videos, and there hasn't been much in the way of gear swapping, much less "Situational Gear".  I haven't seen any evidence of any effect of the "Atmosphere/Climate System" on the characters.

    What has been shown is an auto-attack system where the group dynamic revolves around restricting (via pulling or CC tactics) the active number of opponents to 1, with 1 character holding the opponents attention while a healer attempts to keep them alive, with all available hands beating on that one opponent until dead. 

    At this point, the list of promises is mostly that -- promises.  This may be a design philosophy, but it does not show up in a tangible way in the videos.  Many of the promises are concepts that may never have any observable effect.  Without an observable effect, these become marketing / advertising mechanisms, and are very subject to subjective interpretation, many of which we have seen before (group/social orientation, varied NPC behavior, etc.)

    I'm suggesting that confusing 'words on a website' with 'code in a game' is only going to cause disappointment.  My opinion is based on my observation of available material.
    They've mostly just shown proof of concept of these things. They've shown a mana climate. They showed an item that enabled colored mana, and gave resistance to that particular climate. I'm not certain whether that item had anything to do with the Living Codex or not, but it would qualify as situational gear.

    Having only shown 3 gameplay streams of the first 14 levels, we haven't seen all of the potential of those systems. They've also shown NPC encounters that were quite different than anything in EQ back in the days, including a fully scripted battle. I'm not sure how dynamic those things were. The biggest challenge from a programming standpoint is NPC dispositions and AI. That seems to have the most potential of keeping combat interesting.

    The question at this point is not whether or not they actually have those things or the capability to create them, it's whether or not they can finish the game.


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