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What should be the primary deciding factor in combat?

45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
edited January 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Before someone says they want a mix of these... I deliberately didn't include a mix option because that would result in very unhelpful data. Obviously any combat system can't function well with 100% one of these, so the options are for the primary deciding factor, that is, the factor that matters the most in combat. It could be 26% of what matters while each other option is 24.67%, or it could matter a great deal more, but the main point is that it is the primary deciding factor.
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  • somersaultsamsomersaultsam Member UncommonPosts: 230
    For me it is 100% player skill.  It is why I do not play mmo pvp; more multiplayer shooters. Gear/ level advantages make pvp pointless for me. 

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    4507 said:
    Before someone says they want a mix of these... I deliberately didn't include a mix option because that would result in very unhelpful data. Obviously any combat system can't function well with 100% one of these, so the options are for the primary deciding factor, that is, the factor that matters the most in combat. It could be 26% of what matters while each other option is 24.67%, or it could matter a great deal more, but the main point is that it is the primary deciding factor.

    Why can't a combat system be 100% skill based? 
    ....
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,837
    edited January 2017
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progression of the character should be the most significant factor determining outcome of an encounter. 

    Vertical progression is a combination of character skill, gear and other eventual ways to progress your character in that particular MMORPG. I voted character skill because an option covering all elements of vertical progression is not included in your poll.

    The idea that player skills should be the major component determining outcomes of the encounters was brought to the genre later when it became more popular due to successful games which managed to attract players from other genres.

    I am not saying there should not be games, even MMO fantasy games for which it should be the player skills deciding combat results. They just are not MMORPGs, in my opinion.

    I just want to add that I am saying this as a player of competitive online games. I spent almost 4 000 hours in CSGO, several hundred hours playing arena in WoW, etc. I do like this type of games. However, having player skills decide combat outcomes goes against core principles of MMORPGs, IMO. 




  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,322
    Depends on what type of game you are playing to be honest.  If you are playing a game where you have to level up a skill to us it effectively then it doesn't matter how good of a player you are if the skill will miss every time you us it.  You need to tell what type of system you are talking about before asking a poll like that.   Are you referring to an action combat kind of game where you are just given skills freely, then I would say player skill.  But if like the example I stated you have to learn the skills themselves and level them up I would say character skill.  If you are talking about a PvE only game where the goal is to collect more powerful gear to be able to do more content then the answer becomes gear.  Whereas this same thing collecting more powerful gear in a PvP game is a bad example of how to do it, in which case is should most definitely be player skill.  So like I said you need to state some more parameters the question is to open ended.

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,934
    If you mean player skill by how fast they can twitch or press keys then I would have to say not that. However if you mean more strategically and not relying on action combat then its player skill. Anyway I just think it would depend on the game. You have to be more specific.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    edited January 2017
    I voted player skill. This isn't a pen and paper RPG.
    Of course, character skills, gear and luck all play their part. But player skill should be about smart placement, avoiding the "fire zones", and generally be mobile and dynamic and adapt to the situation. A MMORPG where the player just stands in front of the boss and bashes him hoping the RNG favors him without anything else to do would be boring. And no MMORPG ever was about that, not even those "old school" ones.

    But the best combat will be sluggish and crappy without responsiveness, which is the major factor of a good MMORPG combat for me. What you see is what you get. Good example of that is WoW combat.
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  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Member UncommonPosts: 307
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Gorwe said:
    Please elaborate more on those options. How does a "character skill" option differ from either luck or gear?
    This is really the problem with this type of poll -- the line between the options is incredibly blurry.

    Isn't "character skill" pretty much luck-based, for example?

    And "player skill" can cover a wide array of systems, as well.  This could mean anything from FPS-targetting to manual block/dodge mechanis to simple strategic use of spell choices.  It could be anything from shooter to tab-target games, etc.  Even most "character skill" systems have an element of player skill involved.

    Still, I generally prefer "player skill" to be a factor regardless of the system being used. 

    I generally hate "luck" being a major factor, all around.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    Theodwulf said:
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
    If you want just character skill, play a tabletop RPG, not a computer RPG or MMORPG.
    See what I did here ? ;)
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    Class skills and gear are tools, its up to players to use it correctly to succeed or fail. The consequence of making character skills the deciding factor is that you immediately end up with fotm compositions where its most important to play the right class. The consequence of gear is that you steamroll content because you are overgeared for the place. Luck has always been bad.
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  • sibs4455sibs4455 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    Most  gamers use Voice, scripts, macro's and addons these days, the only time you won't see this is when events are broadcast.
    If you don't use any of the above then you will be just cannon fodder.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,837
    Theodwulf said:
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
    If you want just character skill, play a tabletop RPG, not a computer RPG or MMORPG.
    See what I did here ? ;)
    It is still an RPG / MMORPG though.Tabletop or computer is just a platform on which you play it. Why would you change core principles of the genre just because of the platform you play it on?

    As I said in the previous post, I am not saying ALL fantasy online games have to be about vertical progression. There is room for both. I just would not call those player skill based MMORPGs. 
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    edited January 2017
    Theodwulf said:
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
    If you want just character skill, play a tabletop RPG, not a computer RPG or MMORPG.
    See what I did here ? ;)
    It is still an RPG / MMORPG though.Tabletop or computer is just a platform on which you play it. Why would you change core principles of the genre just because of the platform you play it on?

    As I said in the previous post, I am not saying ALL fantasy online games have to be about vertical progression. There is room for both. I just would not call those player skill based MMORPGs. 
    I don't see how the influence of player skill is in any way related to either horizontal or vertical progression. You will always have people with better reflexes, more able to "run out of fire", with better instant decision making about what to do. That's player skill.
    If you'd give the best gear of the game, the same optimal classes with optimal skillsets to both some average casual guild and the best guild of the game, the best guild would still win any raid speed run, even on a new raid both parties don't know anything about. That's true nowadays, that was already true back in EQ days.

    Unless you talk about a MMORPG with turn based combat, player skill will always be very important, no matter the progression model.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    Theodwulf said:
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
    If you want just character skill, play a tabletop RPG, not a computer RPG or MMORPG.
    See what I did here ? ;)
    It is still an RPG / MMORPG though.Tabletop or computer is just a platform on which you play it. Why would you change core principles of the genre just because of the platform you play it on?

    As I said in the previous post, I am not saying ALL fantasy online games have to be about vertical progression. There is room for both. I just would not call those player skill based MMORPGs. 
    In most themepark mmorpg zones have levels, quests have levels, monsters have levels so that players can fight against enemies that gives you an appropriate challenge so that player skills becomes the deciding factor.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,129
    Is strategy also count as player's skill ?

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,815
    It is a game.

    Regardless the genre the sole definition of a game is the failure and winning state. And said state is defined by your action as the player.

    So the weight of your success and your failure should always be defined by your skills as a player - even if said skills are simple or not urgent (like planning or calculations about income and optimizations).

    iixviiiix said:
    Is strategy also count as player's skill ?

    Yes. Of course.

    Your insight and your input on a certain task is a form of player skill. It is your wit after all.
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  • R_M_BR_M_B Member UncommonPosts: 42
    LUCK

    It is not obvious at first, but when you think about it - it is the only logical answer.

    Player skill, character level and gear should matter, but when you overrate one of it you get either:
     - reflex race with 13yo
     - speed run to max and then get bored
     - raid, raid, raid. And  farmers.
    So skills, level and gear should be balanced. And when you balance it right the deciding factor that is left is luck.






      
    B)
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,391
    WMDs
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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    edited January 2017
    It's always going to be luck. There are too many things a player has no control over for it to be anything else. To a certain extent you can make your own luck but random factors like latency, build advantages against certain other builds, positioning, and surprise are always going to be major deciding factors. Anything else is utterly predictable garbage. The saying "on any given day" comes to mind.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Twitch skills are primarily eye/hand co-ordination, ambidexterity and muscle memory.

    If you can execute complex keyboard combo's without even looking at the keys, while accurately controlling the mouse with the other hand, you will pwn !

    Knowing exactly what do is useless if you cannot do it in a split second...
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    I went character skill.

    As long as they can't stop the bots and cheating there really is no way to have any skill during combat other than speed which is why we have bots.
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  • NightliteNightlite Member UncommonPosts: 227
    Connection speed.
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    edited January 2017
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progression of the character should be the most significant factor determining outcome of an encounter. 

    Vertical progression is a combination of character skill, gear and other eventual ways to progress your character in that particular MMORPG. I voted character skill because an option covering all elements of vertical progression is not included in your poll.

    The idea that player skills should be the major component determining outcomes of the encounters was brought to the genre later when it became more popular due to successful games which managed to attract players from other genres.

    I am not saying there should not be games, even MMO fantasy games for which it should be the player skills deciding combat results. They just are not MMORPGs, in my opinion.

    I just want to add that I am saying this as a player of competitive online games. I spent almost 4 000 hours in CSGO, several hundred hours playing arena in WoW, etc. I do like this type of games. However, having player skills decide combat outcomes goes against core principles of MMORPGs, IMO. 




    Taxis were originally horse-drawn carriages. Clearly taxis of today are not taxis, as they do not involve horses and instead use engines (a far superior mode of creating forward motion for a wheeled vehicle).

    Your logic is so very flawed. 

    Core principles of MMORPGs? What are those exactly? Here, let me pull out my MMORPG Creator's Guidebook and turn to the chapter on 'Core Principles'.

    MMORPG - is a term coined to succinctly define a genre of games with similar attributes. It IS NOT a mold, schematic, or otherwise set-in-stone methodology to creating or designing a game. If MMORPG applies to a game's design, as it is the most appropriate moniker for the genre of said game, then that game will likely be called an MMORPG.

    This question comes down to opinion, not fact. Every game I have played, for any significant amount of time, that involved vertical progression (WoW, SWTOR, ESO, Asheron's Call, SWG etc.) required both character AND player skill. For me, and I believe many others (based on the poll results), if player skill is not a significant factor in the outcome of combat, then it is not enjoyable. A great example of this is getting ganked, if you are a level 10 and a level 100 comes up and whacks you in the face once killing you, that is not good design or fun. However, if you are level 10 and a level 100 comes up and starts to whack you in the face, but you use a dodge ability and get a few hits in, and the fight ends (still with you dead) but you got him down a good amount of health...that is a better design.

    EDIT: Not to mention one of the biggest first generation MMORPGs was EverQuest and it was the first Themepark MMORPG. 'Themepark' did not evolve from MMORPGs, the 'Themepark' has always been one subset of the genre.
    Post edited by SirAgravaine on
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,656
    kitarad said:
    If you mean player skill by how fast they can twitch or press keys then I would have to say not that. However if you mean more strategically and not relying on action combat then its player skill. Anyway I just think it would depend on the game. You have to be more specific.
    Yeah player skill is always a little bit fuzzy....I mean we are just pressing buttons, it isnt rocket science.
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,837
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progression of the character should be the most significant factor determining outcome of an encounter. 

    Vertical progression is a combination of character skill, gear and other eventual ways to progress your character in that particular MMORPG. I voted character skill because an option covering all elements of vertical progression is not included in your poll.

    The idea that player skills should be the major component determining outcomes of the encounters was brought to the genre later when it became more popular due to successful games which managed to attract players from other genres.

    I am not saying there should not be games, even MMO fantasy games for which it should be the player skills deciding combat results. They just are not MMORPGs, in my opinion.

    I just want to add that I am saying this as a player of competitive online games. I spent almost 4 000 hours in CSGO, several hundred hours playing arena in WoW, etc. I do like this type of games. However, having player skills decide combat outcomes goes against core principles of MMORPGs, IMO. 




    Taxis were originally horse-drawn carriages. Clearly taxis of today are not taxis, as they do not involve horses and instead use engines (a far superior mode of creating forward motion for a wheeled vehicle).

    Your logic is so very flawed. 

    Core principles of MMORPGs? What are those exactly? Here, let me pull out my MMORPG Creator's Guidebook and turn to the chapter on 'Core Principles'.

    MMORPG - is a term coined to succinctly define a genre of games with similar attributes. It IS NOT a mold, schematic, or otherwise set-in-stone methodology to creating or designing a game. If MMORPG applies to a game's design, as it is the most appropriate moniker for the genre of said game, then that game will likely be called an MMORPG.

    This question comes down to opinion, not fact. Every game I have played, for any significant amount of time, that involved vertical progression (WoW, SWTOR, ESO, Asheron's Call, SWG etc.) required both character AND player skill. For me, and I believe many others (based on the poll results), if player skill is not a significant factor in the outcome of combat, then it is not enjoyable. A great example of this is getting ganked, if you are a level 10 and a level 100 comes up and whacks you in the face once, that is not good design or fun. However, if you are level 10 and a level 100 comes up and starts to whack you in fact, but you use a dodge ability and get a few hits in, and the match ends (still with you dead) but you got him down a good amount of health...that is a better design.

    EDIT: Not to mention one of the biggest first generation MMORPGs was EverQuest and it was the first Themepark MMORPG. 'Themepark' did not evolve from MMORPGs, the 'Themepark' has always been one subset of the genre.
    The core "principle" (or purpose in this case) of taxi service is transport of passengers. The very core principle of a role playing game or its massively multiplayer online version is avatar development.

    Today's so called MMORPGs tuned the avatar development element down and started focusing on other elements borrowed from other genres, such as FPS or MOBA. Strengthening of the role of horizontal progression and player skills in determining the outcomes of encounters is an example of this genre evolution / blur. This was supported by, for instance, the tendency to establish level playing field in the games and the implementation of new types of combat systems (e.g. action combat). 

    It is not that horse-drawn carriages were substituted by cars with engines, but that horse-drawn carriages are no longer used for transporting passengers, bur rather for delivering food. They are no longer taxis. 

    The question in the OP is not what should be the exclusive factor determining outcome of encounters, but what should be the most significant factor. I never said that player's skills should not play any role at all, but they should not be the most significant determining factor.

    Just because someone is better in mashing buttons does not mean that they should kill a superior avatar with an inferior one in an MMORPG. In FPS, MOBA, MMOGs, why not, but not in an MMORPG.

    I think this was a general consensus 20 years ago. However, the RPGs / MMORPGs have never been defined in such manner to allow us to strictly say which game does and which game does not belong to this genre, so it does come down to opinion rather than fact.

    So feel free to disagree and insult me by saying that my logic is so very flawed. I dont know why I am wasting time defending a genre that is several decades old and which is pretty much dead anyway.


     
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