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Why did mmorpgs fail as a genre?

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Kunai_Vax said:
    I love it when people like that get shut down  ;)
    Wishful thinking. Most postes aren't here for discussion neither they care whether they make any sense at all, just look at Kyleran above...they will just keep going regardless.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Kunai_Vax said:
    Gdemami said:
    The biggest problem with SWTOR imo is they spent so many resources and millions of dollars on voice overs.
    Did they? Can you please share the number and source?
    I love it when people like that get shut down  ;)
    I thought they spent all that money fixing the hero engine  :p
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    MMOs are build on long term stay. There are too many, and of those, there are too many servers on that one game.

    So the smaller MMOs have their population spread thin, which gives the illusion that population is low, and this makes players leave. Players want to feel like they are playing in a populated game world. this is why developers hide their population numbers.

    Lots of people that play MMOs are very conservative. Dont like change. So we seek out things that did things like the old days. Problem is, the old days are old for a reason. Things like FFA Full Loot worked back when there wasnt options, so you had to just deal with it. Now we have options, and developers refuse to do new things. Same with the traditional Raid system for endgame. nobody ever said it was law that raids had to be hard content. But thats what all developers that make raids do. The conservative mindset holds the genre back. There is no law that say MMORPG has to have levels as a progression gate. 

    Quality is another problem. MMOs and all games have bugs yes. Some developers are not transparent about their game improvement. Look at Guild Wars 2 for example. For years the developers were building an expansion and moving resources to that, while leaving the crying community back then to just cry and beg for some quality of life changes. The developers were so secretive about things, the community pretty much make datamining a popular thing every other week for the hope of finding out new things. Developers need to be more open and transparent. Set aside people to handle QOL additions. Dont leave people in the hanging, not knowing if fixes will come or if developers are using resources for the next expansion. GW2 is doing the same thing right now again. ignoring its userbase while building the next expansion. 

    I said this before... But players want to have fun. most of us played a MMO or single player RPG before. We know most of the basic stuff. We dont need 80, 100, 1000 levels of grind from day one just to have some fun at the end of some level gate. Even big successful MMOs like World of Warcraft have not figured this out. People get bored when they are FORCED to grind levels to do something that they want to do. If I want to play AV in WoW, I shouldnt have to wait a 51 level grind or any level grind to play it.(I dont know what the current level requirement is but just using this as an example). I want to jump in and have fun. Rift was a cool concept, but the Vanilla level grind at release was just terrible. I did all that so I can play in the 20v20 PvP mode. Forgot what its called now. But that was terrible. I hated that experience, because It made me want to rush through most of the world leaving most of the game world meaningless and useless, just so I can have fun with some of the content I wanted originally. And when the new Expansion released and increase the level grind, restricting that 3 faction PvP mode they had added in Vanilla, I quit. I said no. We are not stupid. We dont need level grind to learn how to play the game. We can do that at our own pace. 

    MMO games need more PUBLIC aspects as well. Over the years, the genre is too private group base. This always leads to some kind of group dominance in these games. in most cases, its some kind of Guild Requirement. I hate that. Guilds are fun sometimes yes. But now its like some kind of dictatorial job. They even have applications. I say move away from this. Make content more accessible to non-guild players. This goes back to something I said earlier about FFA Full Loot MMOs. These games are always Guild focus. All Open World Group PvP turn into private Guild Group events, because their pretty much isnt any PUBLIC anything, do to the FFA Full Loot troll environment. Public Events are a great element for improving here. Same as for when World of Warcraft introduced the LFR(Looking For Raid) feature. Gives more players access to features and content without Guild Requirements. 
    I think you are generally right but I am not so sure that MMO fans are so conservative in reality. When you ask them what they want, sure but I am certain that something different and fun would change peoples mind really fast.

    It is pretty logical, you don't know that something new is fun until you actually tried it and to be honest have there not been many games that are so different from the others that are fun. ESO, GW2 and FF XIV are the furthest western games (yeah, I count FF as western because Japan really is closer to us then China and South Korea MMO wise but ignore it if you don't agree) that actually  been good and they all done pretty well.

    I just don't think most players know what they want until they get it, it is way harder to guess how fun something untried is then most people think. Some things sounds really great but are rather boring when you try it (which is why Blizz killed Titan) while others doesn't sound so fun on paper but once you try you are hooked (while Heartstone ain't a MMO it is a good example, it is way more fun then it sounds when someone describes it).
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,282
    Kunai_Vax said:
    Gdemami said:
    The biggest problem with SWTOR imo is they spent so many resources and millions of dollars on voice overs.
    Did they? Can you please share the number and source?
    I love it when people like that get shut down  ;)
    The game won the Guinness world record for voice acting, so I think we can say it was a significant part of the games budget. Was it a waste? That's far harder to say.

     25 Agrees

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Gdemami said:
    The biggest problem with SWTOR imo is they spent so many resources and millions of dollars on voice overs.
    Did they? Can you please share the number and source?
    That is rather impossible unless you worked on it as a dev, EA been rather secretive on the matter. But they do have a lot of VOs and some from rather famous people so it certainly wasn't free.

    Still, TOR do have earned in it's development and running cost several times over even if it did cost as outrageous as some rumors say. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have skipped some of the VOs and added more physical content instead, while VOs are nice I don't feel I need it for everything and you can't have too much content.

    Then again, the current players opinion is what really matters and I don't belong to them and if you guys love your VOs it was probably worth it. :)
  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    edited February 2017
    Gdemami said:
    When the game feels moer like a MOBA with a lot of classes and races with less grind making it accessible it would also allow for swtor to be more like an e-sport. 
    If MMORPG is supposed to be "more like MMOBA" one could just play a MOBA instead.

    MOBA and MMORPG are two entirely different, rather repugnant concepts.

    But that is what I mean when I say "Easier said than done" - wishlist assembled of random features without any deeper thought.
    Thats with your taste, but a moba is very much like a themepark that the combat siuation whether it be pve or pvp is intanced.

    The difference in mobas is that it gives player a large selection of heroes with no (little) progression, where as an mmo is all about progression but as a result pigeon holes players to level one class and struggles to reward alting considering the huge down time to get to end game and end game gear.

    If a person enjoys end game mostly, then they can see the appeal of what a moba concept offers. Its a model on something sucessful with a large consumer base that has e-sports. Sure its not for everyone.

    Many games try to be niche in some way, with swtor it was 'story' by making the single player part better for an mmo. While in other games that are sand box they offer end game content with the grind really just about making currency to go sieging.

    What about a hybrid where you get a bit of story and right into the action? So the end result you do not feel pigeon holed into playing 1 hero/class and try as many heroes as you like with a greater a reward than the traditional mmo would offer for alting.

    The reason why people would play instead of a moba is becuase it would be more of the perspecitve of an mmo 3d and first person, and have an action style combat system of an mmo compared to a moba. Also i am using moba in terms of how it is successful and not really turning a moba into an mmo, but may be more of how to make an mmo more like a moba. Crowfall to be similar to that concept.

    MMO is kind of a blank statement in terms of concept, the only real defintion is that it has a lot of players in one place. 

    And if you follow other games, or may be tried to understand what i was saying, then you would not be more focused on poking holes in 1's argument than seeing in how it makes sense. 

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,582
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
    How do you know SW:TOR is one of the top revenue generating MMOs in the west?

    The only data we have that is publicly available is from Superdata, but Superdata only collect data from a fraction of the market (they state on their website they only collect data from approx 500 games in total. Not MMOs, but across all platforms and genres, including mobile). Plus, Superdata usually don't have the facts - they take scraps of information and estimate. 


    Anyway, if you can ever be bothered, you can go back and read the quarterly earnings reports from EA for the time period when SW:TOR launched. It did fail, financially. They sold 1.7m - 2m boxes in the first month, which is great. In month 2, they had 1.3m subscribers. Somewhere between month 3 and month 6 they dipped below 500k subscribers. EA's finance dude stated that the break even point was 500k subscribers.

    That is why they switched to F2P - the game was failing. 

    Then look at the reports after the F2P switch. They had an initial increase in subscribers, bringing it over the 500k mark, but then it dropped off again and they stopped reporting numbers. 


    This is why SW:TOR has received so few updates and so little content - the game failed financially and EA needed to get back their money. 



    I don't know why anyone was surprised that SWTOR failed though. The main devs were bioware (single player, story-focused rpgs), backed up by Mythic (the remnants of mythic anyway, the guys who screwed WAR) and published by EA (famous for destroying creativity and aiming for a quick buck). SWTOR never stood a chance of being successful, let alone a valid competitor for WoW, because it was built and managed by completely the wrong people. 


  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,656
    I still look at one event in the genre that changed everything: for better and for worse...That was WoW....It dumbed down the genre and brought in a whole new generation of gamer, but it was a totally different kind of gamer than what we saw before WoW......From this point on games started to cater to this kind of gamer and the uniqueness of MMOs pretty much died........The questfest, storymode, solo driven MMO replaced the explorable worlds that were around before WoW....The MMOs tried too hard to entertain us instead of building us a world where we entertained ourselves.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
    How do you know SW:TOR is one of the top revenue generating MMOs in the west?

    The only data we have that is publicly available is from Superdata, but Superdata only collect data from a fraction of the market (they state on their website they only collect data from approx 500 games in total. Not MMOs, but across all platforms and genres, including mobile). Plus, Superdata usually don't have the facts - they take scraps of information and estimate. 


    Anyway, if you can ever be bothered, you can go back and read the quarterly earnings reports from EA for the time period when SW:TOR launched. It did fail, financially. They sold 1.7m - 2m boxes in the first month, which is great. In month 2, they had 1.3m subscribers. Somewhere between month 3 and month 6 they dipped below 500k subscribers. EA's finance dude stated that the break even point was 500k subscribers.

    That is why they switched to F2P - the game was failing. 

    Then look at the reports after the F2P switch. They had an initial increase in subscribers, bringing it over the 500k mark, but then it dropped off again and they stopped reporting numbers. 


    This is why SW:TOR has received so few updates and so little content - the game failed financially and EA needed to get back their money. 



    I don't know why anyone was surprised that SWTOR failed though. The main devs were bioware (single player, story-focused rpgs), backed up by Mythic (the remnants of mythic anyway, the guys who screwed WAR) and published by EA (famous for destroying creativity and aiming for a quick buck). SWTOR never stood a chance of being successful, let alone a valid competitor for WoW, because it was built and managed by completely the wrong people. 



    You realize this is like a 5 year-old game, right? Going F2P doesn't mean failure, it means that there needs to be an adjustment in the monetization of the game. This is the REALITY that is faced by the vast majority (like 90%+) of games these days. People don't pay for subscriptions anymore, that's the reality. 

    Now if we were to use Superdata research as a guide, they said that the top 5 P2P MMOs by revenue for February 2016 was:
    1 World of Warcraft
    2 Lineage I
    3 TERA: Online
    4 Star Wars: The Old Republic
    5 Blade & Soul 

    From NC Softs financials, which break down their games by revenues (thank you NC Soft), Lineage I did $68 million USD in Q1 2016 while Blade & Soul did $46.6 million USD in Q1 2016. So it would stand to reason that SWTOR is somewhere in the region of $50-$70 million quarterly. In 2014 it was stated that they were making $160 million annually. So even if this Q1 number is inflated, I'd find it difficult to believe that they aren't far off that $160 million number quoted a couple years back. 

    I'd say that it certainly hasn't failed, especially since it's probably still hanging in there as one of the top earners, probably top 3 as far, as North American markets. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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    ----------------

  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
    How do you know SW:TOR is one of the top revenue generating MMOs in the west?

    The only data we have that is publicly available is from Superdata, but Superdata only collect data from a fraction of the market (they state on their website they only collect data from approx 500 games in total. Not MMOs, but across all platforms and genres, including mobile). Plus, Superdata usually don't have the facts - they take scraps of information and estimate. 


    Anyway, if you can ever be bothered, you can go back and read the quarterly earnings reports from EA for the time period when SW:TOR launched. It did fail, financially. They sold 1.7m - 2m boxes in the first month, which is great. In month 2, they had 1.3m subscribers. Somewhere between month 3 and month 6 they dipped below 500k subscribers. EA's finance dude stated that the break even point was 500k subscribers.

    That is why they switched to F2P - the game was failing. 

    Then look at the reports after the F2P switch. They had an initial increase in subscribers, bringing it over the 500k mark, but then it dropped off again and they stopped reporting numbers. 


    This is why SW:TOR has received so few updates and so little content - the game failed financially and EA needed to get back their money. 



    I don't know why anyone was surprised that SWTOR failed though. The main devs were bioware (single player, story-focused rpgs), backed up by Mythic (the remnants of mythic anyway, the guys who screwed WAR) and published by EA (famous for destroying creativity and aiming for a quick buck). SWTOR never stood a chance of being successful, let alone a valid competitor for WoW, because it was built and managed by completely the wrong people. 


    Haha WOW buddy 2011 called and wants their talking points back.  Since 2012 swtor has released just as much content as any other mmorpg (excluding WoW).  Thank you for proving my point about you guys who are so emotionally involved in being so wrong you can't get over the fact swtor is still here and doing good.  Have some self respect and move on already it's 2017 you've been embarrassing yourself for over 5 years now. 
  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    CrazKanuk said:
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
    How do you know SW:TOR is one of the top revenue generating MMOs in the west?

    The only data we have that is publicly available is from Superdata, but Superdata only collect data from a fraction of the market (they state on their website they only collect data from approx 500 games in total. Not MMOs, but across all platforms and genres, including mobile). Plus, Superdata usually don't have the facts - they take scraps of information and estimate. 


    Anyway, if you can ever be bothered, you can go back and read the quarterly earnings reports from EA for the time period when SW:TOR launched. It did fail, financially. They sold 1.7m - 2m boxes in the first month, which is great. In month 2, they had 1.3m subscribers. Somewhere between month 3 and month 6 they dipped below 500k subscribers. EA's finance dude stated that the break even point was 500k subscribers.

    That is why they switched to F2P - the game was failing. 

    Then look at the reports after the F2P switch. They had an initial increase in subscribers, bringing it over the 500k mark, but then it dropped off again and they stopped reporting numbers. 


    This is why SW:TOR has received so few updates and so little content - the game failed financially and EA needed to get back their money. 



    I don't know why anyone was surprised that SWTOR failed though. The main devs were bioware (single player, story-focused rpgs), backed up by Mythic (the remnants of mythic anyway, the guys who screwed WAR) and published by EA (famous for destroying creativity and aiming for a quick buck). SWTOR never stood a chance of being successful, let alone a valid competitor for WoW, because it was built and managed by completely the wrong people. 



    You realize this is like a 5 year-old game, right? Going F2P doesn't mean failure, it means that there needs to be an adjustment in the monetization of the game. This is the REALITY that is faced by the vast majority (like 90%+) of games these days. People don't pay for subscriptions anymore, that's the reality. 

    Now if we were to use Superdata research as a guide, they said that the top 5 P2P MMOs by revenue for February 2016 was:
    1 World of Warcraft
    2 Lineage I
    3 TERA: Online
    4 Star Wars: The Old Republic
    5 Blade & Soul 

    From NC Softs financials, which break down their games by revenues (thank you NC Soft), Lineage I did $68 million USD in Q1 2016 while Blade & Soul did $46.6 million USD in Q1 2016. So it would stand to reason that SWTOR is somewhere in the region of $50-$70 million quarterly. In 2014 it was stated that they were making $160 million annually. So even if this Q1 number is inflated, I'd find it difficult to believe that they aren't far off that $160 million number quoted a couple years back. 

    I'd say that it certainly hasn't failed, especially since it's probably still hanging in there as one of the top earners, probably top 3 as far, as North American markets. 
    Exactly guys like Camelto have so much time and emotion invested in bashing swtor they are stuck in 2011-2012.  They regurgitate the same talking points from 2011-2012 and stick their head in the sand when facts come out about what swtor has done since 2012.    

    Hey congrats Camelto you can hang onto they went f2p...you hang onto that for the next 5-10 years one day you will be able to tell all of "I told you so" even if you have to waste 10 years of your life embarrassing yourself with you swtor 2011 talking points. 
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Incomparable said:
    And if you follow other games, or may be tried to understand what i was saying, then you would not be more focused on poking holes in 1's argument than seeing in how it makes sense.
    ...so because I am pointing out holes in your posts means I don't understand you? Seriously....

    MOBA is nothing like "themepark"(MMORPG). Period.

    The major difference and appeal of MMORPGs is persitency /and progression and that does not bode well with PVP or anything "MOBA-like". Very unpopular on these boards to hear but fact is people love progression.

    Crowfall is a great example of that, while I consider Crowfall to be best thought out indie project out there, devs still struggle to balance out character progression and gear with their PVP focused design. They made very significant changes to make it somewhat "EVE-like" but imo that ain't going to work because it lacks the synergy with other mechanics.

    While we will have to wait how Crowfall is going to turn out, thre is another example - GW2. A game that tried to flatten or even completely remove progression, yet it is one of the major complaint of GW2 players.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,582
    CrazKanuk said:
    It's rather interesting people keep mentioning swtor when referring to this FAKE NEWS about MMORPGS failing.  These are the same people for the last 5 years who have been saying swtor is a failure and will close in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and now in 2017.  

    In reality (where most people live) the game is still one of the top revenue generating western mmos month after month.  We are stuck with these same people predicted swtor death for the next 5-10 years, we are stuck with these same people blaming swtor for the failure of mmos and we are stuck with these same people hijacking every swtor thread or thread that isn't even about swtor.  
    How do you know SW:TOR is one of the top revenue generating MMOs in the west?

    The only data we have that is publicly available is from Superdata, but Superdata only collect data from a fraction of the market (they state on their website they only collect data from approx 500 games in total. Not MMOs, but across all platforms and genres, including mobile). Plus, Superdata usually don't have the facts - they take scraps of information and estimate. 


    Anyway, if you can ever be bothered, you can go back and read the quarterly earnings reports from EA for the time period when SW:TOR launched. It did fail, financially. They sold 1.7m - 2m boxes in the first month, which is great. In month 2, they had 1.3m subscribers. Somewhere between month 3 and month 6 they dipped below 500k subscribers. EA's finance dude stated that the break even point was 500k subscribers.

    That is why they switched to F2P - the game was failing. 

    Then look at the reports after the F2P switch. They had an initial increase in subscribers, bringing it over the 500k mark, but then it dropped off again and they stopped reporting numbers. 


    This is why SW:TOR has received so few updates and so little content - the game failed financially and EA needed to get back their money. 



    I don't know why anyone was surprised that SWTOR failed though. The main devs were bioware (single player, story-focused rpgs), backed up by Mythic (the remnants of mythic anyway, the guys who screwed WAR) and published by EA (famous for destroying creativity and aiming for a quick buck). SWTOR never stood a chance of being successful, let alone a valid competitor for WoW, because it was built and managed by completely the wrong people. 



    You realize this is like a 5 year-old game, right? Going F2P doesn't mean failure, it means that there needs to be an adjustment in the monetization of the game. This is the REALITY that is faced by the vast majority (like 90%+) of games these days. People don't pay for subscriptions anymore, that's the reality. 

    Now if we were to use Superdata research as a guide, they said that the top 5 P2P MMOs by revenue for February 2016 was:
    1 World of Warcraft
    2 Lineage I
    3 TERA: Online
    4 Star Wars: The Old Republic
    5 Blade & Soul 

    From NC Softs financials, which break down their games by revenues (thank you NC Soft), Lineage I did $68 million USD in Q1 2016 while Blade & Soul did $46.6 million USD in Q1 2016. So it would stand to reason that SWTOR is somewhere in the region of $50-$70 million quarterly. In 2014 it was stated that they were making $160 million annually. So even if this Q1 number is inflated, I'd find it difficult to believe that they aren't far off that $160 million number quoted a couple years back. 

    I'd say that it certainly hasn't failed, especially since it's probably still hanging in there as one of the top earners, probably top 3 as far, as North American markets. 
    Exactly guys like Camelto have so much time and emotion invested in bashing swtor they are stuck in 2011-2012.  They regurgitate the same talking points from 2011-2012 and stick their head in the sand when facts come out about what swtor has done since 2012.    

    Hey congrats Camelto you can hang onto they went f2p...you hang onto that for the next 5-10 years one day you will be able to tell all of "I told you so" even if you have to waste 10 years of your life embarrassing yourself with you swtor 2011 talking points. 
    Whilst I was angry back in 2012 when the game sucked, I have no emotional investment in it now.

    My point was that, at launch, the game failed. It bled players too quickly and was heading for a financial loss. The switch to F2P allowed them to generate more money out of the game and prevent it from being a financial loss, but this came at the expense of content.

    I have kept in touch with SW:TOR since I left - I'm a big fan of Star Wars and I have a lot of friends that still play the game. Without exception, every single person I know that plays SW:TOR says that the release schedule for content is diabolical and when new content does release, it is much lower quality than the original game (which wasn't great itself) and is extremely short lived. I mean, when they release a new "expansion" that can be completed in 6 hours....


    I have no problem with SW:TOR continuing to run and I'm glad people are still enjoying it. But to call it a success? It missed every single one of EA's and Biowares targets. It was missing half the features that were promised during development. The amount of content released is nowhere near what it should be if it was successful. It started off as a financial failure, resulting in a massive business shift designed to suck more money per player. The only measure of success that SW:TOR achieved is the fact it is still running.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,328
    I have been playing mmorpgs since 2002 and there have always been plenty of games to play. They are not perfect, but I still have something to enjoy. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    And making loads of money and has released just as much content in the same timeframe as every other big name MMO except EQ and eq2.

    So while it failed to meet their goals the game itself was not a failure.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,316
    MMOs are stale bread. They haven't really changed since the first one out the door so while new pixels make it appear like it is NEW, it is still the same old stale bread with more graphical content.

    Now breaking the mold of existing and making something new is a greater challenge since cost to make one is still astronomical due to the infrastructure required per CCU.

    Take a small MMO as example. The requirement for making the server workable and combatting cheating requires at a minimum 1 core per 20 players per ZONE. Now I said per zone here since zone can be a cluster of replication to other connected zones. Add into this that the server does 99% of the work and the client is just a dumb terminal looking into the simulation on the server would require 100 computers costing 40,000 each just to sustain 10 zones and 2000 players.

    Now a developer can make a multiplayer game give others the server and let them run it for 10 to 20 others at a MUCH MUCH lower cost.

    So why would any developer in their right mind make a MMORPG?!
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    Instead of trying to innovate content, devs focused on monetization schemes which resulted in nickle and dime game design.

    The game part is just meant to keep you in long enough to get spammed with infomercials for items that ruin balance or are cosmetic and should be in the game in the first place.
  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,316
    Jacobin said:
    Instead of trying to innovate content, devs focused on monetization schemes which resulted in nickle and dime game design.

    The game part is just meant to keep you in long enough to get spammed with infomercials for items that ruin balance or are cosmetic and should be in the game in the first place.
    Sadly this is true but then again this is because people are willing to throw their money at virtual goods to have bragging rights. Some people have a LOT of disposable income and are willing to part with it so can't really blame the developers trying to scratch a living since in the long run MOST want to pay nothing and get it all free.

    The reason this works out so well is the 'game' is in the cash shop. Hell a couple games have the achievement of who has the most game coins in the system. One in particular has an achievement for someone with a million dollars in the system.


  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 229
    edited February 2017
    I think it's partly from the massive multiplayer mechanic. I stopped playing mmorpgs and spend my time playing arpgs now. There are few arpgs that are really fun, and a couple coming out that looked quite promising. Lost Ark was one of the promising ones.

    When I learned that Lost Ark was an mmoarpg I thought that would be pretty cool. But then I saw it action and it was a reminder that mmo mechanics just royally mess up a game's potential...
    Skip to the 5 hour 30 second mark in the below video to see what I'm referring to.


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    OP is begging the question.

    Spoiler:



    As long as I can log in to a MMORPG that meets the right criteria, this is just another one of those premature death-knell threads we've been seeing oh, the last decade or so.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    CrazKanuk said:

    You realize this is like a 5 year-old game, right? Going F2P doesn't mean failure, it means that there needs to be an adjustment in the monetization of the game. This is the REALITY that is faced by the vast majority (like 90%+) of games these days. People don't pay for subscriptions anymore, that's the reality. 

    Now if we were to use Superdata research as a guide, they said that the top 5 P2P MMOs by revenue for February 2016 was:
    1 World of Warcraft
    2 Lineage I
    3 TERA: Online
    4 Star Wars: The Old Republic
    5 Blade & Soul 

    From NC Softs financials, which break down their games by revenues (thank you NC Soft), Lineage I did $68 million USD in Q1 2016 while Blade & Soul did $46.6 million USD in Q1 2016. So it would stand to reason that SWTOR is somewhere in the region of $50-$70 million quarterly. In 2014 it was stated that they were making $160 million annually. So even if this Q1 number is inflated, I'd find it difficult to believe that they aren't far off that $160 million number quoted a couple years back. 

    I'd say that it certainly hasn't failed, especially since it's probably still hanging in there as one of the top earners, probably top 3 as far, as North American markets. 
    You also have to count in that people tend to play more in the autumn and winter then spring and summer so the number probably goes down a little due to that. 

    But calling the game is failure isn't right, even if EA hoped for more.It is still pretty popular and earn a lot of money, if you want to talk failure then look on Wildstar.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    I am actually surprised when i read these titles , and anyone takes the time to rationalize the topic which is clearly void of any substance ..
  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Big producers gave up on AAA MMORPGs/MMos to make MOBAs and mobile games: lower investment (which was a problem for AAA MMORPGS) and better return. Game makers have shifted away from "big" to do small and multi-platform now. There is not nearly as much money going into the MMORPG industry, so the games are not getting made. That is the whole reason of why the MMORPG biz is in the toilet.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Burntvet said:
    Big producers gave up on AAA MMORPGs/MMos to make MOBAs and mobile games: lower investment (which was a problem for AAA MMORPGS) and better return. Game makers have shifted away from "big" to do small and multi-platform now. There is not nearly as much money going into the MMORPG industry, so the games are not getting made. That is the whole reason of why the MMORPG biz is in the toilet.
    That is because MOBAs, mobile games, action online games are where the gamers are now.

    I am actually surprised that MMOs are not completely dead yet. I will just check back a few weeks from now and see whether that comes true. 
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