And I've played Skyrim "since launch" and still play it. Clearly you have very specific needs if you think that an unmodded skyrim doesn't allow for freedom.
Not at all. I just don't think that ability to move in any direction = freedom. Sure, in-game freedom is an illusion, but it can vary in depth and is a summ of many design desisions. A too complex thing to debate about here, but for example imo, Morrowind, Gothic 1-2, Risen 1, Arx Fatalis, Dragons Dogma, New Vegas - all made a much better job creating this illusion than Skyrim or Oblivion. I do like Skyrim (427 hours on Steam , but I had most fun of it playing as an archer which took some .ini tweaks to unlock projectile interaction distance (it's havily limited in stock game and you can see arrows passing through enemies without hitting on long range) + some archery overhaul mods to be able to really enjoy.
The thing is that animation canceling is really only a veteran hardmode final boss in a dungeon or veteran raid kind of thing and then only if you're trying to get a speed achievement or going for high scores.
In normal run of the mill pugs I don't even bother slotting my top DPS rotation abilities anyway. If the tank isn't controlling the adds or the healer is slacking off - which happens more often than not, I'm better off slotting shields and self-heals. Min-maxing my DPS rotation, including animation cancelling, is a luxury of being in a really good group.
And in PVP you spend most of your time moving and chasing anyway. Animation cancelling is the least of your worries there.
So it does exist and it does help your DPS, but people that don't even do hard mode raids blow its impact on the game all out of proportion. Even the toughest bosses in raids with enrage mechanics are not designed with animation cancelling in mind - they can be done just fine without it. If the game didn't have leader boards for fastest flawless raid completions no one would really give a shit about it.
The problem is that when something like that exists the expectation is that you will take advantage of it or be considered shit. Performing animation canceling is not my idea of fun, at all. That said it isn't the sole or even the biggest reason I left, just a big gripe.
The thing is that animation canceling is really only a veteran hardmode final boss in a dungeon or veteran raid kind of thing and then only if you're trying to get a speed achievement or going for high scores.
In normal run of the mill pugs I don't even bother slotting my top DPS rotation abilities anyway. If the tank isn't controlling the adds or the healer is slacking off - which happens more often than not, I'm better off slotting shields and self-heals. Min-maxing my DPS rotation, including animation cancelling, is a luxury of being in a really good group.
And in PVP you spend most of your time moving and chasing anyway. Animation cancelling is the least of your worries there.
So it does exist and it does help your DPS, but people that don't even do hard mode raids blow its impact on the game all out of proportion. Even the toughest bosses in raids with enrage mechanics are not designed with animation cancelling in mind - they can be done just fine without it. If the game didn't have leader boards for fastest flawless raid completions no one would really give a shit about it.
The problem is that when something like that exists the expectation is that you will take advantage of it or be considered shit. Performing animation canceling is not my idea of fun, at all. That said it isn't the sole or even the biggest reason I left, just a big gripe.
Well you're not the only one that's bothered by it. It has always been and continues to be an active hot-button topic on the forums... even this week.
But eliminating it would require such a fundamental overhaul of the whole combat system that I can't see it going anywhere.
If it was me making the decisions, I would embrace it and officially support it with an in-game macroing system similar to what Rift uses to help the less coordinated be more competitive. At this point it should be treated as something that needs balancing just like the % tweaks they do to ability numbers in balance patches.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
ESO is awesome! Obviously it has pros and cons like EVERY game, but overall it is fun, beautiful and there is a ton of stuff to do. And I think the group stuff in pvp, pve and guilds is a blast.
And I've played Skyrim "since launch" and still play it. Clearly you have very specific needs if you think that an unmodded skyrim doesn't allow for freedom.
Not at all. I just don't think that ability to move in any direction = freedom. Sure, in-game freedom is an illusion, but it can vary in depth and is a summ of many design desisions. A too complex thing to debate about here, but for example imo, Morrowind, Gothic 1-2, Risen 1, Arx Fatalis, Dragons Dogma, New Vegas - all made a much better job creating this illusion than Skyrim or Oblivion. I do like Skyrim (427 hours on Steam , but I had most fun of it playing as an archer which took some .ini tweaks to unlock projectile interaction distance (it's havily limited in stock game and you can see arrows passing through enemies without hitting on long range) + some archery overhaul mods to be able to really enjoy.
I still don't see what you mean. I'm a HUGE fan of Dragon's dogma but I don't really believe it offers a great illusion of freedom.
Morrowind was my favorite Elder Scrolls game and clearly has the best dungeons, caves, tombs as far as exploration but the detail wasn't really there.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I still don't see what you mean. I'm a HUGE fan of Dragon's dogma but I don't really believe it offers a great illusion of freedom.
Morrowind was my favorite Elder Scrolls game and clearly has the best dungeons, caves, tombs as far as exploration but the detail wasn't really there.
It realy is a hard thing to explain, but I'll try. In a nutshell it all breaks down to what tools a player has to deal with various situations in a game and how well they are defined. I can loosely combine them in to 3 major sets: combat, dialogue and exploration. Some elements of game design or even code can effect several of those simultaniously.
The sequence from the begginig of Gothic 2 where player has to enter the city is a good example of geneal freedom in games imo - there are at least 6 ways to get past the gards (more really) including several dialogue variants with various prerequisites, several exploration options based on game worlds geometry, physics (or lack of ) and combat as a dumbest and hardest. In this case open world structure and ability to move freely enhances feeling of freedom by allowing additional paths to the goal. Skirims designers never used their open world in such ways which is a pure shame.
About freedom in Dragons Dogma - if you've played Dogma you probaly know how many "hidden" and miningfull options are there during quests and none of them is stuffed down gamers throat. I.e. the ability to forge (duplicate) quest items for a fee opens up a lot of possibilities with various outcomes.
The games combat is another example of how freedom can "grow" from basic stuff, there's just so many ways to fight things with style and effect... including gravity
If we get back to comparing Skyrim to ESO I can put 2 small examples of what ESO does differently and how it works to give more "freedom": - in ESO you sometimes have an ability to send NPC do certain Q objectives for you, reducing "legwork". It's an option, but a welcome one and I can't recall anything alike in other TES games. - Characters can "cast" spells while using 2H weapons allowing (at least theoretically) to better shape certain archetypes (One of my ESO toons is a "blackguard"-like character with 2H sword and life-stealing spells which is a problematic set up to play in previous TES games)
I still don't see what you mean. I'm a HUGE fan of Dragon's dogma but I don't really believe it offers a great illusion of freedom.
Morrowind was my favorite Elder Scrolls game and clearly has the best dungeons, caves, tombs as far as exploration but the detail wasn't really there.
It realy is a hard thing to explain, but I'll try. In a nutshell it all breaks down to what tools a player has to deal with various situations in a game and how well they are defined. I can loosely combine them in to 3 major sets: combat, dialogue and exploration. Some elements of game design or even code can effect several of those simultaniously.
The sequence from the begginig of Gothic 2 where player has to enter the city is a good example of geneal freedom in games imo - there are at least 6 ways to get past the gards (more really) including several dialogue variants with various prerequisites, several exploration options based on game worlds geometry, physics (or lack of ) and combat as a dumbest and hardest. In this case open world structure and ability to move freely enhances feeling of freedom by allowing additional paths to the goal. Skirims designers never used their open world in such ways which is a pure shame.
About freedom in Dragons Dogma - if you've played Dogma you probaly know how many "hidden" and miningfull options are there during quests and none of them is stuffed down gamers throat. I.e. the ability to forge (duplicate) quest items for a fee opens up a lot of possibilities with various outcomes.
The games combat is another example of how freedom can "grow" from basic stuff, there's just so many ways to fight things with style and effect... including gravity
If we get back to comparing Skyrim to ESO I can put 2 small examples of what ESO does differently and how it works to give more "freedom": - in ESO you sometimes have an ability to send NPC do certain Q objectives for you, reducing "legwork". It's an option, but a welcome one and I can't recall anything alike in other TES games. - Characters can "cast" spells while using 2H weapons allowing (at least theoretically) to better shape certain archetypes (One of my ESO toons is a "blackguard"-like character with 2H sword and life-stealing spells which is a problematic set up to play in previous TES games)
Hope I've managed to explain my point by now.
That explains it but it just shows me that you are more about the quest choices. So yeah, if you want to say that their quests offer more ways to complete/approach them then "sure", I can't disagree.
But the Elder Scrolls games really aren't "about" their quests. I mean, I could go on about how there are several questlines in skyrim that were very poorly done.
The elder scrolls games are more about creating a world and the adventures you discover in those worlds. And I suspect that is where people are talking about freedom.
I can't comment on the Gothic games because the two I tried I couldn't stand. I think that had more to do with the combat and interface. And lord I tried!
Dragon's Dogma does several things better than the Elder Scrolls games such as combat, the details of the enemies/monsters, heck I would even say the companion ai is better.
But it's not much of a world. Though I would then say that the expansion, that huge dungeon, is simply one of the best I've ever played.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The single most complained about thing when it comes to ESO is that it does not feel or play like an Elder Scrolls game. You can shill all you want, it isnt going to change anything nor is it going to make the games population rise.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
The new remastered Skyrim looks really good. I was surprised at how well that was done. My son is playing remastered on PS4 and he's having as good a time as his modded Steam version.
That said, every single time I play Skyrim I end up doing some short deed and logging into ESO. With the way it's grown and progressed ESO is a better game in every possible way.
Skyrim questing feels so on rails. The werewolf quest chain is a good example. Don't want to become a werewolf then your time with them has ended even though you've been through thick and thin with them. Suddenly they have nothing else to say and the narrative at that corner of the world dies. It's no more permissive than ESO to me.
Skyrim feels empty. That sort of feeling I remember getting when going over to my grandparents as a kid, to take care of the house, when they were away. It just felt empty like all the reasons you enjoy visiting are missing - the people. The rest is just window dressing.
Combat in ESO is so much better for me. It feels tight and interactive. Skyrim combat feels clunky like they wanted the flexibility of turn based decision making in an action system. It's one of the most immersion breaking combat systems I've ever played. The constant pause and menu surfing drives me crazy. Yeah, I'm going to eat a full meal between turns to regen. Lame.
ESO looks better. The character models. The world. Everything. I don't play with Skyrim mods really because I want the play the game the creators made, not some hobby project by modders. If I just wanted single player eye candy I can get it in other titles without having to deal with modders.
This is because Skyrim is anything but openworld. There is nothing openworld about Skyrim at all. Bethesda created the illusion of OW by breaking 1 big RPG into half a dozen smaller RPGs and putting it under a main theme so you can alternate between arks. But within each individual ark? You have NO options except play or dont' play. Oh but you want your Shout don't you? But the one thing about Skyrim that drives me through the wall is how blatantly and obviously disconnected the stories are from each other.
In Dawnguard, there is a word that does not appear in Serana's dialog. "Dragonborn" (Or Dovahkiin for that matter). She never says it. it was never written into her character.
Before the game released I studied the lore by watching youtube videos and reading hours of information. I wasn't naive enough to think the mmo would be anywhere near as in-depth as the single player games, but I was sorely upset that it came nowhere even close. I played a few weeks and occasionally go back, but its pretty much the same thing with way less content than other titles offer for a subscription. I wanted to find something new in a cave, or a hidden treasure in a crack behind a waterfall. There is no real exploring that made the franchise what it is. I love the idea of the game, but it just isn't fun to me.
That's kinda funny, considering I find treasure chests hidden out of the way all the time. I specifically go looking for out of the way spots, some which look like you shouldn't be able to get there, but with some observation and careful navigation, you can... and more times than not, I'd found an Advanced or Master level treasure chest hidden there. I've found "cave behind a waterfall" type locations that reward a keen eye. The game simply does not point them all out to you (unless you're using an add-on that shows all their locations, in which case the add-on is ruining the experience, not the game itself).
That said, I've found ESO be, aside from GW2, the most explorer-friendly MMO on the market that I've played personally. ESO's Tamriel absolutely feels like a world to me, with NPCs actively engaging you asking for help, not standing around with a ! over their head, waiting for you to approach them. I've come across random encounters in-progress as I've wandered around that weren't happening specifically "for me", but were just *happening*. Sorcerers opening up portals to Oblivion which must then be closed, folks broken down and stranded, and needing your help. It's as though the world doesn't care that you're there - it's just going on and things are happening whether you're there or not. And that's awesome.
On the other hand, there are numerous situations where my decisions have a direct impact on my experience going forward.
A particularly poignant example was a situation where I was asked to speak to the ghost of a woman's lover, only to find out he never really cared about her. I had the choice of lying to her so she could go on in blissful ignorance, or telling the truth and explaining what he'd really said. I decided the Truth was the right way to go, however hard to speak or hear it might be. I found her ghost later, standing on the side of the road, still in mourning. In her sadness over the news I delivered, she had taken her own life. For a moment, I felt like shit because *I* was responsible for that outcome. Had I lied to her, she might still be alive... believing a lie, but alive.
The entire situation was written convincingly, with maturity and gravity, and it was just a short little side-quest that I came across while on my way somewhere. I could just as well have missed it. I could have decided not to pick it up.
That experience was one of the key things that sold me on ESO. Not since certain storyline missions in FFXI has a storyline in a MMORPG ever hit me emotionally like that. I've gone on to have similar experiences in ESO, and its world has only drawn me in further as I go.
While I can appreciate that others' experiences haven't been the same, I am reading some of the comments others are posting and wondering how they're approaching the game to be having such a seemingly hollow experience, or missing out on these things I encounter pretty regularly in my travels.
Maybe they're just skipping the dialog, and not paying attention to the world around them? Maybe they're sabotaging and undermining their own experience with the typical "race to level cap because end game is all that matters" mentality many gamers have nowadays? Maybe they're removing all sense of exploration and discovery by using addons that show the exact location of every item and point-of-interest in the game? I have no idea. But some people in this thread seem to be playing a very different ESO than me.
Comments
I do like Skyrim (427 hours on Steam
The problem is that when something like that exists the expectation is that you will take advantage of it or be considered shit.
Performing animation canceling is not my idea of fun, at all.
That said it isn't the sole or even the biggest reason I left, just a big gripe.
But eliminating it would require such a fundamental overhaul of the whole combat system that I can't see it going anywhere.
If it was me making the decisions, I would embrace it and officially support it with an in-game macroing system similar to what Rift uses to help the less coordinated be more competitive. At this point it should be treated as something that needs balancing just like the % tweaks they do to ability numbers in balance patches.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Sz
Morrowind was my favorite Elder Scrolls game and clearly has the best dungeons, caves, tombs as far as exploration but the detail wasn't really there.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The sequence from the begginig of Gothic 2 where player has to enter the city is a good example of geneal freedom in games imo - there are at least 6 ways to get past the gards (more really) including several dialogue variants with various prerequisites, several exploration options based on game worlds geometry, physics (or lack of
In this case open world structure and ability to move freely enhances feeling of freedom by allowing additional paths to the goal. Skirims designers never used their open world in such ways which is a pure shame.
About freedom in Dragons Dogma - if you've played Dogma you probaly know how many "hidden" and miningfull options are there during quests and none of them is stuffed down gamers throat. I.e. the ability to forge (duplicate) quest items for a fee opens up a lot of possibilities with various outcomes.
The games combat is another example of how freedom can "grow" from basic stuff, there's just so many ways to fight things with style and effect... including gravity
If we get back to comparing Skyrim to ESO I can put 2 small examples of what ESO does differently and how it works to give more "freedom":
- in ESO you sometimes have an ability to send NPC do certain Q objectives for you, reducing "legwork". It's an option, but a welcome one and I can't recall anything alike in other TES games.
- Characters can "cast" spells while using 2H weapons allowing (at least theoretically) to better shape certain archetypes (One of my ESO toons is a "blackguard"-like character with 2H sword and life-stealing spells which is a problematic set up to play in previous TES games)
Hope I've managed to explain my point by now.
But the Elder Scrolls games really aren't "about" their quests. I mean, I could go on about how there are several questlines in skyrim that were very poorly done.
The elder scrolls games are more about creating a world and the adventures you discover in those worlds. And I suspect that is where people are talking about freedom.
I can't comment on the Gothic games because the two I tried I couldn't stand. I think that had more to do with the combat and interface. And lord I tried!
Dragon's Dogma does several things better than the Elder Scrolls games such as combat, the details of the enemies/monsters, heck I would even say the companion ai is better.
But it's not much of a world. Though I would then say that the expansion, that huge dungeon, is simply one of the best I've ever played.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The single most complained about thing when it comes to ESO is that it does not feel or play like an Elder Scrolls game. You can shill all you want, it isnt going to change anything nor is it going to make the games population rise.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
This is because Skyrim is anything but openworld. There is nothing openworld about Skyrim at all. Bethesda created the illusion of OW by breaking 1 big RPG into half a dozen smaller RPGs and putting it under a main theme so you can alternate between arks. But within each individual ark? You have NO options except play or dont' play. Oh but you want your Shout don't you? But the one thing about Skyrim that drives me through the wall is how blatantly and obviously disconnected the stories are from each other.
In Dawnguard, there is a word that does not appear in Serana's dialog. "Dragonborn" (Or Dovahkiin for that matter). She never says it. it was never written into her character.
That's kinda funny, considering I find treasure chests hidden out of the way all the time. I specifically go looking for out of the way spots, some which look like you shouldn't be able to get there, but with some observation and careful navigation, you can... and more times than not, I'd found an Advanced or Master level treasure chest hidden there. I've found "cave behind a waterfall" type locations that reward a keen eye. The game simply does not point them all out to you (unless you're using an add-on that shows all their locations, in which case the add-on is ruining the experience, not the game itself).
That said, I've found ESO be, aside from GW2, the most explorer-friendly MMO on the market that I've played personally. ESO's Tamriel absolutely feels like a world to me, with NPCs actively engaging you asking for help, not standing around with a ! over their head, waiting for you to approach them. I've come across random encounters in-progress as I've wandered around that weren't happening specifically "for me", but were just *happening*. Sorcerers opening up portals to Oblivion which must then be closed, folks broken down and stranded, and needing your help. It's as though the world doesn't care that you're there - it's just going on and things are happening whether you're there or not. And that's awesome.
On the other hand, there are numerous situations where my decisions have a direct impact on my experience going forward.
A particularly poignant example was a situation where I was asked to speak to the ghost of a woman's lover, only to find out he never really cared about her. I had the choice of lying to her so she could go on in blissful ignorance, or telling the truth and explaining what he'd really said. I decided the Truth was the right way to go, however hard to speak or hear it might be. I found her ghost later, standing on the side of the road, still in mourning. In her sadness over the news I delivered, she had taken her own life. For a moment, I felt like shit because *I* was responsible for that outcome. Had I lied to her, she might still be alive... believing a lie, but alive.
The entire situation was written convincingly, with maturity and gravity, and it was just a short little side-quest that I came across while on my way somewhere. I could just as well have missed it. I could have decided not to pick it up.
That experience was one of the key things that sold me on ESO. Not since certain storyline missions in FFXI has a storyline in a MMORPG ever hit me emotionally like that. I've gone on to have similar experiences in ESO, and its world has only drawn me in further as I go.
While I can appreciate that others' experiences haven't been the same, I am reading some of the comments others are posting and wondering how they're approaching the game to be having such a seemingly hollow experience, or missing out on these things I encounter pretty regularly in my travels.
Maybe they're just skipping the dialog, and not paying attention to the world around them? Maybe they're sabotaging and undermining their own experience with the typical "race to level cap because end game is all that matters" mentality many gamers have nowadays? Maybe they're removing all sense of exploration and discovery by using addons that show the exact location of every item and point-of-interest in the game? I have no idea. But some people in this thread seem to be playing a very different ESO than me.