The problem is how bad they are keeping their release estimates. If you underestimate the time and work needed to do something by 50%, then you also underestimate the budget needed by 50%.
I think Star Citizen is making enough money to be financially safe at the moment, but I also think they need at least twice whatever Chris Roberts estimates they need to finish the game.
Does anyone with just a bit of insight on running a business honestly believe that...?
Actually "yeah".
Business don't just fly by the seat of their pants (good businesses that is) and they do try to have others fund projects.
So if I have 24 million in reserve but can get weekly funding by selling stuff or providing a service or billing a customer (more on that) then why would I touch the 24 million?
Companies that provide services will not touch their cash reserves but bill their customers in order to "pay the bills".
I know first hand that a company I worked for did that as well as a friend's company.
Now, this is dependent on that company actually having cash reserves.
Yeah sure, the backers fund SC to raise the reserves. Not to actually use it to develop a game.
Geez, stop comparing this to a business that is funded by actual investors or with a loan from a bank. We are talking about people gifting money so that their dream game is being developed. Not gifting money so that this company can sit on it, while at the same time asking for more.
I'd damn well hope it's financially safe by now given all the crowd funding that has gone in to this project and given that it's only a fraction of the total vision.
But the budget itself for SQ42 isn't even that important. What is important is the reaction to the eventual release.
Whenever SQ42 releases, critics and the public alike will have something to dig into. If it gets panned critically (and even worse, popularly), even the staunchest SC whales will start to think twice before they continue to throw money at the overall project.
In fact, if SQ42 fails horribly, the whole thing is as good as dead.
So if RSI continues to delay the release of SQ42 this year, that would not exactly inspire much confidence imo.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
someforumguy said: Yeah sure, the backers fund SC to raise the reserves. Not to actually use it to develop a game.
Geez, stop comparing this to a business that is funded by actual investors or with a loan from a bank. We are talking about people gifting money so that their dream game is being developed. Not gifting money so that this company can sit on it, while at the same time asking for more.
LOL seriously? The crowdfunded money has nothing to do with them behaving like a company. They are a business independent of what.
If they had no money reserves then the project would collapse next week because the minimum estimated operating costs wouldn't be met by the end of this month! >.>
Sounds pretty obvious,so much so that i think he does not realize what he just said.
Sooooo i will decipher the obvious.
He is saying the game he PROMISED with the funds from gamer's,that he PROMISED were to meet the stretch goals is not there,he ONLY has enough to finish SQ42.
Wow so he has 120 million valued at what 200+ million and he feels they have enough to get SQ42 done?lmao,pretty good managing of your business there Chris. So when he sets out those stretch goals,i would ASSUME or maybe someone should ask him if he allows a % of predicted over cost?
So breaking it down as a "competent" businessman" as he claims to be.If he set out 2 million for a networking guy,he then figures ok +15%,we need 2.3 million.So he is now saying HE fudged that up,they cannot meet the entire project that was laid out in sequential order ,funds by funds,section by section.
Where did all the GAMER's money go that you promised would go to meeting each sector of the game?I would also assume he covers his ass every which way but loose,so he hires people as per /contract.The ones he does not he does not pay them all the money he got from a crowd funded section,he pays them weekly/bi-weekly whatever,a LOT of that money sits in his bank accounts.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Where did all the GAMER's money go that you promised would go to meeting each sector of the game?I
Do you actually know how a game is made? It's not "this feature is going to cost 1M$" and that's it. It's about the TIME estimation.
If you have a budget of 20M to work for 2 years on a game, and you end up needing 4 years, you'll need 40M. The time is the biggest drain of the budget, the more it takes, the more it costs. It's the time estimation that failed.
Every month the studios are overdue on something that was meant to be done by now, say SQ42, it's costing them millions every month.
I guess I'm the only one who partly wants to see SC fail just to witness the backlash.
I don't really care if it fails but if it does i just want to see some truth come out.Like does he already have investors he is keeping a secret so that naive gamer's keep giving him money that he claims he NEEDS?
Then if there are an investor or three,will they come out after the fact to state that Chris failed badly with their money,just like he is failing badly with the gamer's money.
I guess my point is that we will NEVER hear the truth come out of Chris's mouth,only an investor/stock holder government securities person with legal rights to his books would let us know what is going on.
There is a VERY good reason he has kept this "Ortwin F" legal attorney by his side throughout his career. Besides if anything comes out ,i really hate the way governments allow all these shrouded business numbers for crooked people to hide behind.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
someforumguy said: Yeah sure, the backers fund SC to raise the reserves. Not to actually use it to develop a game.
Geez, stop comparing this to a business that is funded by actual investors or with a loan from a bank. We are talking about people gifting money so that their dream game is being developed. Not gifting money so that this company can sit on it, while at the same time asking for more.
LOL seriously? The crowdfunded money has nothing to do with them behaving like a company. They are a business independent of what.
If they had no money reserves then the project would collapse next week because the minimum estimated operating costs wouldn't be met by the end of this month! >.>
I never said that they are not a commercial business. But the comparison with other types of business doesn't hold.
Other businesses that need funding for projects have a very thorough business plan with clear goals and ask for a specific amount of funding (most often get less then that). They know what they want to achieve before asking money is a clear difference here. If they don't they simply won't find investors. Another important difference is that the money is not just a gift with no strings attached(from fans that keep on giving apparently).
Then this company keeps pushing the end goal further away, simply because more money is coming in. Having no clear endgoal, but spending heavily on production scale before you even know what kind of features you want to implement is a recipe for burning money for being inefficient.
I wonder how often teams working on assets are just waiting for programming teams to create a new framework for this new feature they want to add, because stretch goals you know. Oh maybe they are just put on creating more spaceships to sell for a game that isnt even in alpha stage.
At this point, we as outsiders, have no clue if they are actually efficiently trying to work to a goal set in stone, or that the backers are just bankrolling wages to keep the machine going. You can keep adding goals of course and make it up as you go while you keep people gifting you money to make their dreams come true. But that just sounds like a never ending production nightmare.
Another important difference is that the money is not just a gift with no strings attached. From fans that keep on giving apparently.
The point stands, they must have reserves.
During the whole crowdfund they have collected massive amounts of money; when they collected 6Million in a month what obviously is over their operating cost, it's pretty obvious that money funded over the operating costs is put on reserve.
So I don't see why wouldn't they have reserves and still collect further funding to keep that money to the cases where the funding wouldn't cover their operating cost. >.>
It is estimated their operating cost is around 3 Million a month, there were months they only funded 900K, it's rather obvious there was a reserve to resort to.
One can wonder if this time around CR did estimated time well, and really has enough money for SQ42. Doesnt look like he is good at estimations.
All he needs to do is bad time estimation that is enough to mess up the whole financial side. Independent all the stretch goals of the game are a total of 60M...
...if the estimation was 2 or 3 years of dev for 60M, if it takes 4, 5, 6... just multiply that number! And that's a reality he can't escape, it's not the feature that costs the money, it's the time it takes to develop it vs the estimation.
The biggest cost of delays is money, as someone once said, time is money!
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Does anyone with just a bit of insight on running a business honestly believe that...?
Believe what? That they could finish if the funding dried up today? I've been saying for weeks now that "All that's left is to mash the naughty bits together." Which essentially means that regardless of what happens from here on out, something is happening, all the talk is done, clothes are off, all they have to do is tap it in. Now! I am not predicting the level of quality. Who knows?!?!? However, to believe that there isn't a game to be had when, essentially, the individual modules are done (horrible animations and all) is probably more unlikely at this point that ever. It's quickly becoming, or should start becoming, a question about the quality of what is being implemented, and less about whether the game is possible.
No, he couldn't finish if funding dried up today. He says quite the opposite, actually.
One can wonder if this time around CR did estimated time well, and really has enough money for SQ42. Doesnt look like he is good at estimations.
All he needs to do is bad time estimation that is enough to mess up the whole financial side. Independent all the stretch goals of the game are a total of 60M...
...if the estimation was 2 or 3 years of dev for 60M, if it takes 4, 5, 6... just multiply that number! And that's a reality he can't escape, it's not the feature that costs the money, it's the time it takes to develop it vs the estimation.
The biggest cost of delays is money, as someone once said, time is money!
That's semantics, though.
If the feature doesn't cost money itself, but the development of the feature does, that is, by definition the cost of the feature.
The features cost money. And they cost time. If they're delayed, they cost more of both because, as you say, time is money.
Wait a second, they actually would be unable to complete Star Citizen without more funding? That is pretty hilarious.Guess it was a bunch of empty promises. I mean, when the project was originally kickstarted the promise was that Star Citizen would be completed without funding beyond the kickstarter....
Not that I am surprised, considering how long it has taken and the insane amount of feature creep taken on this project. I suspect, and continue to expect, that this is going to be the biggest crowdfunding disaster in history.
If the feature doesn't cost money itself, but the development of the feature does, that is, by definition the cost of the feature.
The features cost money. And they cost time. If they're delayed, they cost more of both because, as you say, time is money.
Yes the cost of the feature is the time it takes to create. The estimation of time is the fundamental piece of the budget, and as we know on game development this estimation is very flippant but ofc most games have a publisher to sustain the cost of delays, SC has the backers.
Chris Roberts: “First of all, we always have a decent amount of money in reserve, so if all support would collapse, we would not suddenly be incapacitated. We plan the scope of the development based on what arrives monthly by the people to support. I’m not worried, because even if no money came in, we would have sufficient funds to complete Squadron 42. The revenue from this could in-turn be used for the completion of Star Citizen.”
So let me get this straight: After they raised 70x more than initial required funding and cca 5x more than what was required for pretty huge MMO with single player campaing (Im looking at the stretch goals) as a bonus, their current statement is: With the money raised, we are basicaly able to release only the single player part of the game - from which noone has ever even seen a gameplay vid of any sorts . . . This is acutally scary as any promises CR makes at this time has to be taken with extreme grain of salt (considering all the delays etc) - so the situation can be waaaay worse
Ok im outta here and at this point Im pretty sure dear Chris will be locked in prison in a few years
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Again. I'll recommend everyone who is totally unaware of founding to read the article (more like a documentary) about Fable series and its development history. [...]
Can you please provide a link?
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
One can wonder if this time around CR did estimated time well, and really has enough money for SQ42. Doesnt look like he is good at estimations.
Why do you think CR is doing estimates? He won't be.
"Project control" will be monitoring (fundamentally) progress, work outstanding and spend. There are different "systems" that can be used but the end result will be things like "Estimates to Complete" along with possible early - and late - finish dates. It certainly won't be CR.
And the key take away: SQ42 / SC are going to release.
And given the number of stories in these forums alone about "game X stopped due to no money", "game Y closed due to money", "game Z delayed due to money" this is good news.
Another takeaway is that the KS funding campaign is getting closer to ending. And being replaced by (probably more expensive) pre-orders. I would expect the two to overlap but some people will be happier to go with the added financial certainty of a pre-order rather than a KS pledge.
And that is what most people are bothered about. They can't care less about how long the game took just is it worth buying / playing.
Who cares about SQ42? We're all waiting for SC to save pc gaming as Chris promised.
It already did a long time ago !
The legendary success of the crowdfunding campaign for SC did more to revitalise interest in developing PC-based games than any single dev project could.
Business don't just fly by the seat of their pants (good businesses that is) and they do try to have others fund projects.
So if I have 24 million in reserve but can get weekly funding by selling stuff or providing a service or billing a customer (more on that) then why would I touch the 24 million?
Companies that provide services will not touch their cash reserves but bill their customers in order to "pay the bills".
I know first hand that a company I worked for did that as well as a friend's company.
Now, this is dependent on that company actually having cash reserves.
No half-decent enterprise is going to sit on pile of cash unless it is required by nature of their business.
Ever wondered why all game studios(in fact any sw dev) build their core game first and itterate later on? With SC it is all other way round, they are building massive list of features without having core game play and mechanics first...
Comments
I think Star Citizen is making enough money to be financially safe at the moment, but I also think they need at least twice whatever Chris Roberts estimates they need to finish the game.
Geez, stop comparing this to a business that is funded by actual investors or with a loan from a bank. We are talking about people gifting money so that their dream game is being developed. Not gifting money so that this company can sit on it, while at the same time asking for more.
But the budget itself for SQ42 isn't even that important. What is important is the reaction to the eventual release.
Whenever SQ42 releases, critics and the public alike will have something to dig into. If it gets panned critically (and even worse, popularly), even the staunchest SC whales will start to think twice before they continue to throw money at the overall project.
In fact, if SQ42 fails horribly, the whole thing is as good as dead.
So if RSI continues to delay the release of SQ42 this year, that would not exactly inspire much confidence imo.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
If they had no money reserves then the project would collapse next week because the minimum estimated operating costs wouldn't be met by the end of this month! >.>
Sooooo i will decipher the obvious.
He is saying the game he PROMISED with the funds from gamer's,that he PROMISED were to meet the stretch goals is not there,he ONLY has enough to finish SQ42.
Wow so he has 120 million valued at what 200+ million and he feels they have enough to get SQ42 done?lmao,pretty good managing of your business there Chris.
So when he sets out those stretch goals,i would ASSUME or maybe someone should ask him if he allows a % of predicted over cost?
So breaking it down as a "competent" businessman" as he claims to be.If he set out 2 million for a networking guy,he then figures ok +15%,we need 2.3 million.So he is now saying HE fudged that up,they cannot meet the entire project that was laid out in sequential order ,funds by funds,section by section.
Where did all the GAMER's money go that you promised would go to meeting each sector of the game?I would also assume he covers his ass every which way but loose,so he hires people as per /contract.The ones he does not he does not pay them all the money he got from a crowd funded section,he pays them weekly/bi-weekly whatever,a LOT of that money sits in his bank accounts.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If you have a budget of 20M to work for 2 years on a game, and you end up needing 4 years, you'll need 40M. The time is the biggest drain of the budget, the more it takes, the more it costs. It's the time estimation that failed.
Every month the studios are overdue on something that was meant to be done by now, say SQ42, it's costing them millions every month.
Then if there are an investor or three,will they come out after the fact to state that Chris failed badly with their money,just like he is failing badly with the gamer's money.
I guess my point is that we will NEVER hear the truth come out of Chris's mouth,only an investor/stock holder government securities person with legal rights to his books would let us know what is going on.
There is a VERY good reason he has kept this "Ortwin F" legal attorney by his side throughout his career.
Besides if anything comes out ,i really hate the way governments allow all these shrouded business numbers for crooked people to hide behind.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Other businesses that need funding for projects have a very thorough business plan with clear goals and ask for a specific amount of funding (most often get less then that). They know what they want to achieve before asking money is a clear difference here. If they don't they simply won't find investors. Another important difference is that the money is not just a gift with no strings attached(from fans that keep on giving apparently).
Then this company keeps pushing the end goal further away, simply because more money is coming in. Having no clear endgoal, but spending heavily on production scale before you even know what kind of features you want to implement is a recipe for burning money for being inefficient.
I wonder how often teams working on assets are just waiting for programming teams to create a new framework for this new feature they want to add, because stretch goals you know. Oh maybe they are just put on creating more spaceships to sell for a game that isnt even in alpha stage.
At this point, we as outsiders, have no clue if they are actually efficiently trying to work to a goal set in stone, or that the backers are just bankrolling wages to keep the machine going. You can keep adding goals of course and make it up as you go while you keep people gifting you money to make their dreams come true. But that just sounds like a never ending production nightmare.
During the whole crowdfund they have collected massive amounts of money; when they collected 6Million in a month what obviously is over their operating cost, it's pretty obvious that money funded over the operating costs is put on reserve.
So I don't see why wouldn't they have reserves and still collect further funding to keep that money to the cases where the funding wouldn't cover their operating cost. >.>
It is estimated their operating cost is around 3 Million a month, there were months they only funded 900K, it's rather obvious there was a reserve to resort to.
...if the estimation was 2 or 3 years of dev for 60M, if it takes 4, 5, 6... just multiply that number! And that's a reality he can't escape, it's not the feature that costs the money, it's the time it takes to develop it vs the estimation.
The biggest cost of delays is money, as someone once said, time is money!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Delivery of elements of the game, on time, is
If the feature doesn't cost money itself, but the development of the feature does, that is, by definition the cost of the feature.
The features cost money. And they cost time. If they're delayed, they cost more of both because, as you say, time is money.
Not that I am surprised, considering how long it has taken and the insane amount of feature creep taken on this project. I suspect, and continue to expect, that this is going to be the biggest crowdfunding disaster in history.
After they raised 70x more than initial required funding and cca 5x more than what was required for pretty huge MMO with single player campaing (Im looking at the stretch goals) as a bonus, their current statement is:
With the money raised, we are basicaly able to release only the single player part of the game - from which noone has ever even seen a gameplay vid of any sorts
.
.
.
This is acutally scary as any promises CR makes at this time has to be taken with extreme grain of salt (considering all the delays etc) - so the situation can be waaaay worse
Ok im outta here and at this point Im pretty sure dear Chris will be locked in prison in a few years
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
Why anyone continues to care what Chris Roberts says is beyond me. It's just blather and bloviation.
I'll believe it when it's on the servers and available for all to look at or play.
But I guess what Lincoln said about fooling the people is still operative. As well as that old PT Barnum saying....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
"Project control" will be monitoring (fundamentally) progress, work outstanding and spend. There are different "systems" that can be used but the end result will be things like "Estimates to Complete" along with possible early - and late - finish dates. It certainly won't be CR.
And the key take away: SQ42 / SC are going to release.
And given the number of stories in these forums alone about "game X stopped due to no money", "game Y closed due to money", "game Z delayed due to money" this is good news.
Another takeaway is that the KS funding campaign is getting closer to ending. And being replaced by (probably more expensive) pre-orders. I would expect the two to overlap but some people will be happier to go with the added financial certainty of a pre-order rather than a KS pledge.
And that is what most people are bothered about. They can't care less about how long the game took just is it worth buying / playing.
The legendary success of the crowdfunding campaign for SC did more to revitalise interest in developing PC-based games than any single dev project could.
Ever wondered why all game studios(in fact any sw dev) build their core game first and itterate later on?
With SC it is all other way round, they are building massive list of features without having core game play and mechanics first...
So indeed...."yeah"....