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Star Citizen - 64 bit

ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
edited January 2017 in Star Citizen
In regular intervals some people claim that Star Citizen is cheating with its "64 bit" engine - that no such conversion has taken place and CIG is lying. Well, leave it to the community to prove the critics wrong. What follows is a 22.5 hour trip (condensed to 22 min Youtube video) .... no quantum travel "cutscene", no loading time at the 8 km limit of the usual 32 bit engine limits .... just plain direct space travel. If you do not believe the YouTube member that posted this video, then you are invited to try it yourself.




"...Here is my trek from comm array 730 to Yela without using quantum travel. This 86,000 km journey took a little over 22.5 hours in real time and condensed down to about 22 minutes for the actual trip using the top cruise speed for the 350r of 1060 m/s. After I turn off the QT waypoint at 2:10  you can see Yela as a tiny speck if you watch full screen on a monitor (might have to move your eyes really close to the screen to see Yela) and grows larger throughout the journey.

This was done in offline mode so I could set my course and then forget it and check it every couple of hours to course correct (except when I was sleeping). If it was online I would be kicked for inactivity after 15 mins..."


When i saw that video i had an EVE Online flashback .... afterburner boosting with an interceptor for 23 hours in EVE to find off-grid ("illegal") safe points (created using an exploit) and create a warp in point at that location.


Have fun 

«13

Comments

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    I was more thinking the joke would be on the people who sat there watching a dot growing bigger for 22 minutes :lol:

    He probably didn't spend that much time doing it himself, because as he said, "I could set my course and then forget it and check it every couple of hours to course correct (except when I was sleeping)".
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Well when that someone is one extremely loud person, it takes some joy into proving him wrong; Ben Parry would agree. xD
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D

    Because it's fricking ridiculous, that's why.
    Going out of their way to film a ship flying through space for 24 hours, with the side effect of correcting a "loudmouthed detractor" who's opinion is not meant to worth anything in the first place, is pretty damn ironic.

    New gameplay possibilities have not been opened up. You can do this in Elite but nobody does it because what is the point? It adds absolutely nothing to the game because the time and distances involved are too big for anybody to bother with.

    I do think it's great that the tech supports space of this size.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    They didn't of course - they just set it up and checked in once in a while. Setting it up on YouTube probably took more time. Heck just posting 10 threads a week about SC would take more time.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
     because what is the point?
    The point is to prove that the 64 bit CryEngine is not a fake.

    A rumour that has circulated for years, spread by a certain group of people for well known reasons.


    Have fun


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,882
    edited January 2017
    Erillion said:
    In regular intervals some people claim that Star Citizen is cheating with its "64 bit" engine - that no such conversion has taken place and CIG is lying.
    No. Actually it proves is that if CIG is cheating with their "64 bit" engine they're doing it really well.

    EDIT: Whether they are cheating or not, they've solved the problem that CryEngine had.
     
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D
    ...

    New gameplay possibilities have not been opened up....
    Says who ?

    What if jump-in points can be detected with scanners ? I have no doubt that if these long-ass flight times provide the possibility for surprise attacks and/or infiltrations of well-guarded space, somebody will use them.

    Seamless travel opens up a wealth of possibilities that don't exist in a game like EVE, for example.

    Deep-space resupply points ? Parking a carrier in deep space to launch surprise fighter sorties ?

    We don't know enough about the final shape of the PU to summarily write this off as "useless"...
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    For anyone interested in "deep space attacks" and "supply point" type stuff these are solid reads by written by  hasn't C J Cherryh:

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,141
    No!!!   Its much better to just continue obsessively hating and making fun of  something then to admit your wrong or that something is working as promised  This proves nothing!! Its all smoke and mirrors!!!  The guy is a fool for spending time trying to do this!!   It cant be done I tell you!!
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    edited January 2017
    You ... can ... not ... forward ... 64Bit ... Variables ... to ... a ... GPU
    OK yeah you can but it will be rendered at 1/16th speed on nVidia cards.
    This is a hardware restriction.

    Every other stuff using 64bit floats is common in every Engine.
    Star Citizen is doing what other games do (i.e. KSP) they are subdividing.

    To refine the grid they use 2 Vectors > 32bitVector,32bitVector this is what you see, like Coords position: Vector1(x,y,z)[Scale 1km per Unit],Vector2(x,y,z)[Scale 0.01m per Unit] you simply take 2 single precision numbers and have a max of 131.072 km (one hundred thirty one thousand kilometers) with 2 single precision Vectors in every direction (signed) with a min precision of 10cm.
    And because they can they use the term double precision - 2 times single must be double ... (which is wrong because this is 33Bit NOT 64Bit). And if this is not enough take 34 Bit this could take you to (for simplification) Vector1[100.000km], Vector2[1km], Vector3[0.01m] one hundred thirty one billion kilometers. And you just need to pass 3 32Bit Vectors to the GPU.

    And because the engine itself (like all other engines) runs in 64bit mode and can calculate 64bit variables everyone (whos not a programmer) is thinking that the whole thing is 64bit, but there is no way they can forward full 64 bit to a GPU (hardware restriction).

    Source: Some ATV in 2015 where they mentioned that.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    You ... can ... not ... forward ... 64Bit ... Variables ... to ... a ... GPU
    OK yeah you can but it will be rendered at 1/16th speed on nVidia cards.
    This is a hardware restriction.

    Every other stuff using 64bit floats is common in every Engine.
    Star Citizen is doing what other games do (i.e. KSP) they are subdividing.

    To refine the grid they use 2 Vectors > 32bitVector,32bitVector this is what you see, like Coords position: Vector1(x,y,z)[Scale 1km per Unit],Vector2(x,y,z)[Scale 0.01m per Unit] you simply take 2 single precision numbers and have a max of 131.072 km (one hundred thirty one thousand kilometers) with 2 single precision Vectors in every direction (signed) with a min precision of 10cm.
    And because they can they use the term double precision - 2 times single must be double ... (which is wrong because this is 33Bit NOT 64Bit). And if this is not enough take 34 Bit this could take you to (for simplification) Vector1[100.000km], Vector2[1km], Vector3[0.01m] one hundred thirty one billion kilometers. And you just need to pass 3 32Bit Vectors to the GPU.

    And because the engine itself (like all other engines) runs in 64bit mode and can calculate 64bit variables everyone (whos not a programmer) is thinking that the whole thing is 64bit, but there is no way they can forward full 64 bit to a GPU (hardware restriction).

    Source: Some ATV in 2015 where they mentioned that.
    So in summary:

    SC is using a 64-bit engine despite prior suggestions by some - who were clearly unaware that 64-bit is common in all engines.

    Whether a computer can render the graphics at 64-bit accuracy will depends on the capabilities of the graphics card. The calculations behind the display will be in 64-bit however.

    OK.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
    You ... can ... not ... forward ... 64Bit ... Variables ... to ... a ... GPU
    OK yeah you can but it will be rendered at 1/16th speed on nVidia cards.
    This is a hardware restriction.

    Unless you use a modern RADEON card from the medium price range that can do it at 1/3rd speed. One should not use the slowest Nvidia variant as example. Newer NVIDIA cards can do it at 1/4th speed.

    This is Chris Roberts we are talking about ... buying a new computer was normal when one of this games came out. 

    This is not WoW, dumbed down so it can run on the oldest rigs.


    Have fun
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Erillion said:
    You ... can ... not ... forward ... 64Bit ... Variables ... to ... a ... GPU
    OK yeah you can but it will be rendered at 1/16th speed on nVidia cards.
    This is a hardware restriction.

    Unless you use a modern RADEON card from the medium price range that can do it at 1/3rd speed. One should not use the slowest Nvidia variant as example. Newer NVIDIA cards can do it at 1/4th speed.

    This is Chris Roberts we are talking about ... buying a new computer was normal when one of this games came out. 

    This is not WoW, dumbed down so it can run on the oldest rigs.


    Have fun
    Ah, you'll remember that I pointed you to the 64Bit GPU website a year ago.
    Most nVidias would render the game at <1FPS at the moment where people get >20FPS so this hasn't been implemented.
    Please get a reality check, you can see in many webstreams that the game in offline Mode does not render in 1/16th FPS where it should with the given hardware > Source Youtube SC Streams.
    But I guess I just don't understand game Star Citizen Development

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,295
    edited January 2017
    Ah, you'll remember that I pointed you to the 64Bit GPU website a year ago.
    Most nVidias would render the game at <1FPS at the moment where people get >20FPS so this hasn't been implemented.
    Please get a reality check, you can see in many webstreams that the game in offline Mode does not render in 1/16th FPS where it should with the given hardware > Source Youtube SC Streams.
    But I guess I just don't understand game Star Citizen Development
    Operative word here being "most".

    Here is a link for older GPUs from 2014:
    http://www.geeks3d.com/20140305/amd-radeon-and-nvidia-geforce-fp32-fp64-gflops-table-computing/

    Solution: Get a RADEON card. See my comment on "having to buy a new computer was normal" above.


    Have fun

  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    Erillion said:
    Ah, you'll remember that I pointed you to the 64Bit GPU website a year ago.
    Most nVidias would render the game at <1FPS at the moment where people get >20FPS so this hasn't been implemented.
    Please get a reality check, you can see in many webstreams that the game in offline Mode does not render in 1/16th FPS where it should with the given hardware > Source Youtube SC Streams.
    But I guess I just don't understand game Star Citizen Development
    Operative word here being "most".

    Here is a link for older GPUs from 2014:
    http://www.geeks3d.com/20140305/amd-radeon-and-nvidia-geforce-fp32-fp64-gflops-table-computing/

    Solution: Get a RADEON card. See my comment on "having to buy a new computer was normal" above.


    Have fun

    This table states that a nVidia GTX 980 is calculating 64bit with 1/32 rate >> this is slower than onboard GPU in 32bit though GTX 980 Users can play SC >1FPS so in conclusion > no 64bit

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    edited January 2017
    What exactly is a long, boring video supposed to prove about being 64-bit?  You do realize that both a 32-bit binary and a 64-bit binary can use both 32-bit and 64-bit data types, don't you?  Also 8-bit and 16-bit.  Or 128-bit or larger if you want, though that's more awkward to code.

    Any sane programmer asks how large of a data type is needed and picks something easy to use and obviously large enough if it's not going to matter for performance.  If it is going to matter for performance, pick the fastest (often but not always smallest) data type that is definitely large enough.  You can--and should--freely choose different data sizes for different variables.

    Commonly choosing larger, slower data types than necessary in situations that are sensitive to performance isn't an indicator of higher quality graphics.  It's an indicator of programmer incompetence--and the sort of incompetence that will cause serious problems elsewhere in the project.
  • JakdstripperJakdstripper Member RarePosts: 2,410
    ......so a game that doesn't even really exists yet, may or may not be in 64 bit, as opposed to 32 bit?.......mkeeeey.....
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited January 2017
    ......so a game that doesn't even really exists yet, may or may not be in 64 bit, as opposed to 32 bit?.......mkeeeey.....
    <insert imaginary game here> It's all part of your imagination boys and gals


    Quizzical said:
     If it is going to matter for performance, pick the fastest (often but not always smallest) data type that is definitely large enough.  You can--and should--freely choose different data sizes for different variables.
    They are not full 64bit. They have converted it where it needs it, in fact I heard on a discussion about this with a CIG Dev that mentioned the performance impact of doing otherwise.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    edited January 2017
    64-bit just has to do with register size and memory aperture.

    Computers have long since been able to do higher-level precision than the bitsize of their registers, they just have to break it up into multiple instruction calls. Your precision is ultimately just limited by the amount of memory you can access in total, not the amount you can access in one instruction.

    After all, how else would a 64-bit CPU be able to do something like 256-bit encryption?
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Quizzical said:
    What exactly is a long, boring video supposed to prove about being 64-bit?  You do realize that both a 32-bit binary and a 64-bit binary can use both 32-bit and 64-bit data types, don't you?  Also 8-bit and 16-bit.  Or 128-bit or larger if you want, though that's more awkward to code.

    Any sane programmer asks how large of a data type is needed and picks something easy to use and obviously large enough if it's not going to matter for performance.  If it is going to matter for performance, pick the fastest (often but not always smallest) data type that is definitely large enough.  You can--and should--freely choose different data sizes for different variables.

    Commonly choosing larger, slower data types than necessary in situations that are sensitive to performance isn't an indicator of higher quality graphics.  It's an indicator of programmer incompetence--and the sort of incompetence that will cause serious problems elsewhere in the project.
    Like saying see how well this MMO runs, in off-mode?!?  OK.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited January 2017
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D

    Because it's fricking ridiculous, that's why.
    Going out of their way to film a ship flying through space for 24 hours, with the side effect of correcting a "loudmouthed detractor" who's opinion is not meant to worth anything in the first place, is pretty damn ironic.

    New gameplay possibilities have not been opened up. You can do this in Elite but nobody does it because what is the point? It adds absolutely nothing to the game because the time and distances involved are too big for anybody to bother with.

    I do think it's great that the tech supports space of this size.

    To be fair, he spent 24 hours proving something. There are plenty of people, present parties included, who have probably spent 24 hours or more discussing the game without proving anything. Honestly, if there were 100 people who could spend 24 hours to prove just 1 thing about the game, anything worth debating could likely be resolved in a matter of 1 day. That doesn't seem like a waste of time to me, in the context of SC.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    CrazKanuk said:
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D

    Because it's fricking ridiculous, that's why.
    Going out of their way to film a ship flying through space for 24 hours, with the side effect of correcting a "loudmouthed detractor" who's opinion is not meant to worth anything in the first place, is pretty damn ironic.

    New gameplay possibilities have not been opened up. You can do this in Elite but nobody does it because what is the point? It adds absolutely nothing to the game because the time and distances involved are too big for anybody to bother with.

    I do think it's great that the tech supports space of this size.

    To be fair, he spent 24 hours proving something. There are plenty of people, present parties included, who have probably spent 24 hours or more discussing the game without proving anything. Honestly, if there were 100 people who could spend 24 hours to prove just 1 thing about the game, anything worth debating could likely be resolved in a matter of 1 day. That doesn't seem like a waste of time to me, in the context of SC.
    He apparently proved that it's possible to travel somewhere without warping.  So what?  That has nothing whatsoever to do with either the title of the thread of the first two sentences of the original post.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 787
    CrazKanuk said:
    I cannot believe someone spent 23 hours doing this to prove someone wrong.

    The joke is on them.
    Why focus on the negative implications ? 
    Or has that become standard practice regarding anything SC-related ?

    This person has proved it can be done ! The game tech has progressed to the point where it is possible to do this. Great news !

    New game play possibilities have opened up.

    And as an aside, some loudmouthed detractors have been "corrected"... :D

    Because it's fricking ridiculous, that's why.
    Going out of their way to film a ship flying through space for 24 hours, with the side effect of correcting a "loudmouthed detractor" who's opinion is not meant to worth anything in the first place, is pretty damn ironic.

    New gameplay possibilities have not been opened up. You can do this in Elite but nobody does it because what is the point? It adds absolutely nothing to the game because the time and distances involved are too big for anybody to bother with.

    I do think it's great that the tech supports space of this size.

    To be fair, he spent 24 hours proving something. There are plenty of people, present parties included, who have probably spent 24 hours or more discussing the game without proving anything. Honestly, if there were 100 people who could spend 24 hours to prove just 1 thing about the game, anything worth debating could likely be resolved in a matter of 1 day. That doesn't seem like a waste of time to me, in the context of SC.
    He spent 22 hours to prove nothing.
    In WoW you can change the zones and coordinates seemless without transition. Theoretically you can tack unlimited zones and have a quadtrillion kilometers to run - does this make WoW pushing 64Bit values to the GPU? I guess it doesn't.
    As I said before, take 3 32bit Vectors and you have 100 billion kilometers in every direction with a precision of 10cm. (without the need to have local zone coordinate system (Though it's almost the same))

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

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