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I want the feeling of pure danger

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Someone who doesn't think a serious death penalty should exist probably doesn't have enough time to commit to such a game. That or they're just a nancy. I can understand the former, but there are plenty of people who will enjoy the greater risk associated with combat and achievement. Not the least of which will be those who've become convinced thru playing modern mmos, that the easy option was somehow an improvement.

    Dying is an important component for building tension and making gameplay rewarding. "Reward without risk is like getting paid without having to work. Eventually the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it."

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    I highly recommend people read that blog.


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,047
    Mendel said:
    If you want to add real danger to your MMO, simply release some vipers in you gaming area.  That should get your blood pumping.  At least, you'll have some incentive to get your asp out of bed in the morning.

    Harsh death penalties don't scare me.  I am far more disappointed when I die, frustrated about the lack of ways my character had to deal with the issue.  I am annoyed with the often insane time penalties / requirements an 'old-school' death imposed, the only thing worse is a recovery timer that guarantees you have to stay in the game longer than intended.  I would feel dumb when I did something dumb that I could have prevented.  Fear doesn't enter the equation.  Never did.

    I have no real interest in games that want to punish me excessively for a character's death.  I might have simply lost my internet connection, or the power to the house may have gone out -- why am I facing the same penalty as if I had done something stupid?  I've done that all before.  I'd rather have new things to try.
    Let me help you back out the door you came in........... Pantheon just wont be for you mate !
    I'm fully aware that Pantheon probably won't be my cup of tea.  That won't prevent me from trying it, hoping to see something that I didn't see in 1999.   I expect to be disappointed at exactly how little that 1999 game play experience will be changed, and will probably take an early exit.  I'll give it a chance to surprise me.

    I fully expect that the same harsh penalties, extensive time-sinks and game play for the sake of game play will contribute to a large number of people who will also exit the game early.  People will remember why they quit EQ1 in 2001 or 2005 or whenever, and discover that a veneer of modern graphics won't make them eager to devote a period of their lives (not to mention money) trying to recapture the feeling of being in 1999 and experiencing MMORPGs for the first time all over again.

    Having a game fail does no one any good.  I won't have that as an option when I want to try a new game.  I'm not hoping for Pantheon to fail, but I see a tiny, ill-defined market with old mechanisms as a danger to the success of this game.  I'm hoping for something beyond the EQ1 experience, something unique to occupy my time, something new to learn and challenge me.  I'd like for Pantheon to provide that, but the project scope as we currently understand it appears to prohibit that.  Frankly, my posts are no different than anyone's -- they strive to put an idea in front of the developers, both for this game and others, expressing my opinion.  That opinion -- there are those who don't want the past revisited.  Regurgitating the past is no basis for future growth of the industry.


    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,612
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:


    Dying is an important component for building tension and making gameplay rewarding. "Reward without risk is like getting paid without having to work. Eventually the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it."

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    I highly recommend people read that blog.
    What a very strange quote.   I would love to be paid in real life without having to work, I'd be online in my favorite MMORPG a whole lot more. :)

    But I'm sure taken in context of the blog it makes more sense.  No need for me to read it, I agree that risk vs reward is a very important part of a virtual world, too little and it seems all pointless.

    Too much and it drives away all but the sturdiest, so it is something which has to be carefully balanced.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:


    Dying is an important component for building tension and making gameplay rewarding. "Reward without risk is like getting paid without having to work. Eventually the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it."

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    I highly recommend people read that blog.
    What a very strange quote.   I would love to be paid in real life without having to work, I'd be online in my favorite MMORPG a whole lot more. :)

    But I'm sure taken in context of the blog it makes more sense.  No need for me to read it, I agree that risk vs reward is a very important part of a virtual world, too little and it seems all pointless.

    Too much and it drives away all but the sturdiest, so it is something which has to be carefully balanced.


    Reward without risk, meaning usually items and such, without any risk. If you risk little to nothing, that directly impacts the sense of value of your items or achievements. You would probably enjoy the blog though.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Let me help you back out the door you came in........... Pantheon just wont be for you mate !
    LOL I still remember all of these types of posts in the Wildstar section.... Turned out it wasn't for much of anyone, forcing the F2P transition. A fall back Pantheon most likely won't have. I'm sure those fans in hindsight would have loved to have all of those people join up they said weren't cut out for the game.. As they'd have people to play with, and the vision of the game wouldn't have been scraped. 

    This is the problem with alienating people in an MMORPG. Turn too many away and you have a problem. I realize at this point it offers a feeling of superiority, that you can take more abuse than the next guy in your games. Some just seem to forget you need that next guy as well to have a successful game...











    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Someone who doesn't think a serious death penalty should exist probably doesn't have enough time to commit to such a game. That or they're just a nancy. I can understand the former, but there are plenty of people who will enjoy the greater risk associated with combat and achievement. Not the least of which will be those who've become convinced thru playing modern mmos, that the easy option was somehow an improvement.


    Harsh death penalties were mostly done away with before the Modern MMO was born, aside from a few failed indies (DF etc)..., EVE was one of the last made that incorporated harsh penalties on death and stayed with it. Even item/corpse retrieval was done away with in SWG very early on. SWG was far from a modern MMO.

    To me it's like calling a person a nancy for not liking Resident Evil (1) style backtracking, a thing that was done away with long ago for the most part, because it killed the sense of exploration as well as forward progression. It was simply a boring negative result of larger levels in those days.

    That's really all such death penalties result in, backtracking; there's no thrill in that IMO, it can be rather boring.






    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,454
    edited January 2017
    If you can overcome danger with shiny new gear then there is no danger at all. That false sense of danger is more discouraging than anything else really. Best way to add a sense of danger to a game? take some notes from dark souls and translate it as accurate as possible into an mmo.

    My opinion of course.




  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Dullahan said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:


    Dying is an important component for building tension and making gameplay rewarding. "Reward without risk is like getting paid without having to work. Eventually the currency you are paid — the “reward” — becomes worthless since anyone can “earn” it."

    http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

    I highly recommend people read that blog.
    What a very strange quote.   I would love to be paid in real life without having to work, I'd be online in my favorite MMORPG a whole lot more. :)

    But I'm sure taken in context of the blog it makes more sense.  No need for me to read it, I agree that risk vs reward is a very important part of a virtual world, too little and it seems all pointless.

    Too much and it drives away all but the sturdiest, so it is something which has to be carefully balanced.


    Reward without risk, meaning usually items and such, without any risk. If you risk little to nothing, that directly impacts the sense of value of your items or achievements. You would probably enjoy the blog though.

    To your point, really the incredibly annoying part of those death mechanics was that it was just so damn EASY to get killed.  You were very exposed when solo, which it seems pantheon wants to maintain to encourage grouping...that's fine.  The thing that was frustrating was that there were also a lot of things out of your control that would get you killed.  I think if they minimize a lot of that kind of death and instead are focused on building tension but making sure that when you die it's because YOU screwed the pooch I could be more on board with it.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
    The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,936
    Distopia said:
    Let me help you back out the door you came in........... Pantheon just wont be for you mate !
    LOL I still remember all of these types of posts in the Wildstar section.... Turned out it wasn't for much of anyone, forcing the F2P transition. A fall back Pantheon most likely won't have. I'm sure those fans in hindsight would have loved to have all of those people join up they said weren't cut out for the game.. As they'd have people to play with, and the vision of the game wouldn't have been scraped. 

    This is the problem with alienating people in an MMORPG. Turn too many away and you have a problem. I realize at this point it offers a feeling of superiority, that you can take more abuse than the next guy in your games. Some just seem to forget you need that next guy as well to have a successful game...


    Yeah but did Wildstar actually fail because of hardcore raids or because of other issues? I played Wildstar for a few hours and disliked it. I can't imagine I'm the only one.


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,047
    Mendel said:
    Mendel said:
    If you want to add real danger to your MMO, simply release some vipers in you gaming area.  That should get your blood pumping.  At least, you'll have some incentive to get your asp out of bed in the morning.

    Harsh death penalties don't scare me.  I am far more disappointed when I die, frustrated about the lack of ways my character had to deal with the issue.  I am annoyed with the often insane time penalties / requirements an 'old-school' death imposed, the only thing worse is a recovery timer that guarantees you have to stay in the game longer than intended.  I would feel dumb when I did something dumb that I could have prevented.  Fear doesn't enter the equation.  Never did.

    I have no real interest in games that want to punish me excessively for a character's death.  I might have simply lost my internet connection, or the power to the house may have gone out -- why am I facing the same penalty as if I had done something stupid?  I've done that all before.  I'd rather have new things to try.
    Let me help you back out the door you came in........... Pantheon just wont be for you mate !
    I'm fully aware that Pantheon probably won't be my cup of tea.  That won't prevent me from trying it, hoping to see something that I didn't see in 1999.   I expect to be disappointed at exactly how little that 1999 game play experience will be changed, and will probably take an early exit.  I'll give it a chance to surprise me.

    I fully expect that the same harsh penalties, extensive time-sinks and game play for the sake of game play will contribute to a large number of people who will also exit the game early.  People will remember why they quit EQ1 in 2001 or 2005 or whenever, and discover that a veneer of modern graphics won't make them eager to devote a period of their lives (not to mention money) trying to recapture the feeling of being in 1999 and experiencing MMORPGs for the first time all over again.

    Having a game fail does no one any good.  I won't have that as an option when I want to try a new game.  I'm not hoping for Pantheon to fail, but I see a tiny, ill-defined market with old mechanisms as a danger to the success of this game.  I'm hoping for something beyond the EQ1 experience, something unique to occupy my time, something new to learn and challenge me.  I'd like for Pantheon to provide that, but the project scope as we currently understand it appears to prohibit that.  Frankly, my posts are no different than anyone's -- they strive to put an idea in front of the developers, both for this game and others, expressing my opinion.  That opinion -- there are those who don't want the past revisited.  Regurgitating the past is no basis for future growth of the industry.


    First off, I appreciate your opinion.

    Second..... I think you're greatly underestimating how much a whole ton of us really appreciate the "OLDER" "greatest mechanics that ever graced the MMORPG genre". All those reasons that you gave of why people will leave the game are all the same reasons of why I WILL stay. I'm sure that goes for a lot of folks. Like CohhCarnage said on his channel during the last stream. Different Strokes for Different Folks. What you personally see as possible problems with Pantheon I see as its greatest strengths.

    But in the end what matters is the fact that you will play and give it a chance. Then you will know for sure if it is a game for you or not.


    Two points in response to your second.

    First, I understand that there is an appreciation for older mechanics, even an attraction.  This is a market segment of unknown size.  If this core isn't capable of maintaining a profitable state for VR, there is a distinct likelihood that Pantheon will have to close their doors.  Where are these 20k, 50k, 200k, 500k (frequently cited numbers in posts on this forum) people now?  What are they playing?  What strategy does VR have to market to these people to entice them to return and retain them?

    Second, there is a far larger number of people who have quit EQ1 (UO / AC / etc.) in the past.  There may be some people who quit because they didn't like how the EQ1 experience had changed (PoP expansion or later).  Again, this is an indefinite number -- finite, but unknowable.  Since Pantheon is aiming to specifically recreate that pristine EQ1 feel, how is that type of game going to have long term appeal (6+ months or 1+ years)?  Is Pantheon planning to eliminate some of the issues the original games introduced, or things they strove to eliminate because these were not conducive to business (retaining customers).  Proponents are quick to assume that 'because players liked EQ1 in 1999, these same players will return'.  That's a bit of a false analogy.  My take is that people left for valid reasons, and don't want to jump through the same hoops as before.

    As I see it, VR is making a game from the past, relying on the lure of nostalgia to find a market for it.  That sounds like a great way to gp out of business.  The market has changed, fundamentally.  There won't be hoards of players experiencing MMORPGs for their first time through Pantheon, as was true with UO / EQ1 / AC.  The notion of modern conveniences (like fast travel and dungeon finders) have entered the genre, and players have adapted to them.  How many people will subject themselves to slow, painful travel, harsh death penalties, stingy game mechanics and manual trading is unknown.

    I do think the most interesting thing that Pantheon can settle will be the presence or absence of this market segment.  Nostalgia hasn't proven to be a solid business strategy in other businesses, maybe games will be an exception.  I'm glad it's not my money at risk.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Sovrath said:
    Distopia said:
    Let me help you back out the door you came in........... Pantheon just wont be for you mate !
    LOL I still remember all of these types of posts in the Wildstar section.... Turned out it wasn't for much of anyone, forcing the F2P transition. A fall back Pantheon most likely won't have. I'm sure those fans in hindsight would have loved to have all of those people join up they said weren't cut out for the game.. As they'd have people to play with, and the vision of the game wouldn't have been scraped. 

    This is the problem with alienating people in an MMORPG. Turn too many away and you have a problem. I realize at this point it offers a feeling of superiority, that you can take more abuse than the next guy in your games. Some just seem to forget you need that next guy as well to have a successful game...


    Yeah but did Wildstar actually fail because of hardcore raids or because of other issues? I played Wildstar for a few hours and disliked it. I can't imagine I'm the only one.


    My point isn't about why it failed, it's just a lesson for those who like to say things like what I addressed. The more people "it's not for" the less that are going to be playing it. Hence why what they focus on is extremely important. How many are going to play for a few hours and dislike it, is an extremely important number, especially early on. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
    The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.
    Maybe so, yet like I said to Sov, how many they turn off with their focus is an important matter. One everyone saying things like "it's not for you" should consider.... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    Eldrach said:
    They're taking the singularity approach, where as many classes will be useless without a group, just like in EQ 1
    Sounds awesome!
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    There is only one thing that causes fear in a game and that's the penalty associated with death.  Its not the death itself but what you lose by dying. 
  • alivenaliven Member UncommonPosts: 346
    goboygo said:
    There is only one thing that causes fear in a game and that's the penalty associated with death.  Its not the death itself but what you lose by dying. 
    If you die, you lose everything, including founders benefits. Total account wipe and are demoted into f2p player. 

    That show them!
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
    The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.

    If it has EQ1 death penalties it absolutely will fall flat on it's face.  I would bet a grand on that.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    goboygo said:
    There is only one thing that causes fear in a game and that's the penalty associated with death.  Its not the death itself but what you lose by dying. 
    Never really worked for me, what works better IMO is what Rojo pointed out. A truly hard scenario is what gets my blood flowing, the death to it means nothing much at all to me, regardless of penalty. I'll risk everything in my inventory as long as the fight is fun (fun = challenging and a test of skill). Hence why I prefer PVP in MMORPGs for that.  

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
    The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.

    If it has EQ1 death penalties it absolutely will fall flat on it's face.  I would bet a grand on that.
    Let's arrange a way to make that bet.


  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Mavein said:
    I used to play on Mith Mar server in EQ1 and danger of losing your corpse made the game a lot of fun haha.

    I remember hearing that even the GMs wouldn't be able to get your corpse back from under Vox....so after a wipe we had to wait for Afterlife to go in and kill her so we could retrieve our corpses.

    Then there were the Plane of Hate corpse recovery's that could take all weekend....so yea...there was no dicking around during raid time or you could, in fact, loose your corpse with all your gear.

    Good times.
    Yeah I remember on one of the early raid attempts on Nagafen  in solb, we lost and my body ended up under his foot. Anyway as I had to work the next day, I gave a friend permission to drag my corpse and somehow the next day it was at the zone. I got my revenge as we killed him the next attempt which was a first for the server.  I think the early EQ1 death penalty is fine with the exception that after a certain amount of time (24 hours or whatever seems fair) the corpse should pop up at a graveyard but with a much more severe penalty than if you recovered it.  I believe it is necessary that you fear death in the game.

     I remember once in hate they some how they messed up aggro in an update and made bards super aggro. It was so bad that I could follow along behind the raid, not in a group, not doing anything and any mobs pulled would instantly aggro on me. Finally i had to let them drag my corpse along with the raid and res me if any bard loot dropped.
  • kalrarkalrar Member UncommonPosts: 35
    piss off your mother in law ...
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
    Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore,  as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
    The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.

    If it has EQ1 death penalties it absolutely will fall flat on it's face.  I would bet a grand on that.
    Let's arrange a way to make that bet.

    Let's talk when we know what they're doing.  They still haven't made any hard decisions on that, so its irrelevant atm.  I Highly doubt they will even do it.
  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    Kyleran said:
    Kilsin said:
    Amathe said:
    DMKano said:
    I cant think of anything else that would terrify OP more.

    I can. A cash shop you access from a saddlebag on a pink unicorn mount followed by a blue kitten pet. 
    Uh oh, should we remove things like this from the game? ;)
    As long as you leave the cat/rabbit ears costumes in, sure.
    Whew, that will save the devs some work! haha ;)

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