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EQ class stereotypes, too much?

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  • Pyde-PyperPyde-Pyper Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Hexipox said:
    After seeing all the footage of the game, the streams, Q&A and interviews I've started to grow a small concern...

    VR always seems to refer to their own classes as if they were the same as they use to be in EQ - it's seems already given that a shaman roll will be his great slow of attack speed, enchanters to increase mana regeneration and CC, clerics to be the master healer, warriors to be tanks, wizards to nuke - then we can guess what the rest of the classes will do.

    This may not be an issue, but I'm  concerned that the classes will not diviate and you will feel you are playing same game on a different engine.

    I hope they will add more diverse classes where the stereotype of EQ is broken up a bit. And VR may already be planing this with their special abilities coming through epic quest and so... 

    But the talk where EQ is mentioned nearly always when talking classes and rolls got me a bit concerned - what about you? Is it only me who have these butterflies in the stomach?
    I believe what they are referring to when they use the EQ1 references is the class inter-dependency we saw in EQ1. The classes will feel like the ones "we" loved. But they will feel new and refreshed. I remember during, I believe the first stream, they talked about the Cleric being able to build a shield of sorts and pick it up/move it around as a high level spell.  

    Also the other reason for EQ1 and Vangaurd being brought up so often is because Brad McQuaid worked on both of those projects in the past. He/VR is pulling their past experiences from those games and using them in Pantheon. They are pulling the things that "worked well" and putting them in some form into Pantheon. While all the while spicing things up and using the tools of 2017 to add to the experience that "we" loved so many years ago.

    (I used the word "we" as in those of us that played EQ / Vanguard and other games that loved the old school MMO's) Sorry for the generalization there.
  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,065
    Honestly I think they should release with about 6-8 classes that are well developed and then slowly add the others.  It is way easier to get the playing audience what they want when you hear what they are complaining about with the existing game!

    If the need is a buffer class, maybe focus on making one of the up and coming classes more buff friendly.  If a lot of people are unhappy with melee DPS, maybe take an up and coming melee type that matches better with player requests.  I'm not talking, "I want a class that will kill a room of bosses with one swing of the sword!"  I'm saying that maybe the lack is a melee type with fast attacks that do less damage, or maybe what the game needs is a heavy hitter with slower attacks.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430
    Hexipox said:
    VR always seems to refer to their own classes as if they were the same as they use to be in EQ [...]
    I agree. Classes are very important to me. The main reason why I could play Vanguard so much is because the classes have been so much fun. Even after years I still found new ways to play my characters, even after years I could still work on optimizing them.

    In Pantheon, it seems that no longer has priority that playing a class is a challenge, something complex you have to learn. And its the return of strong race and class stereotypes. In Vanguard a Dread Knight might lean a bit to the dark side, and he could be evil - but he wasnt outright evil per se. I much prefer that.




    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Even if they copy 95% of EQ it still sets them apart because the game is so different from everything else in the past 15 years. When everyone is copying WoW or asian DBZ grinders, an EQ copy is unique by default.
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    edited February 2017
    I actually like that the classes in Pantheon look similar to the ones in EQ. We obviously don't want a carbon copy of EQ -- but the game did get some things right. No class was too much like another -- even if they could do a similar job in the group. To me, it was the perfect balance of not too specific but not too broad.

    I don't think a game's classes has to be new and unique in order for the game itself to be new and unique. Generally they are just gimmicky remakes of things like warriors, wizards, and rogues anyway. I wasn't a big fan of the classes in Elder Scrolls Online for example.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    As long as they have a EQ style Bard class sometimes soon after launch, I be happy.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413

    Stop posting this nonsensical factual information.  It doesn't fit with the narrative that Pantheon = EQ Clone with better graphics for jaded old guys who have rose colored glasses on and can't think critically.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430


    After reading the links above, you will see that the Pantheon classes do deviate from EverQuest 1.
    You do realize your links are super, super, super old now, right ?

    And sure there is some deviation. But its still closer to EQ than for example Vanguard was. I definitely hope they'll include some of the features of Vanguard later - esp those that worked well, such as the Blood Mage.




    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,331


    After reading the links above, you will see that the Pantheon classes do deviate from EverQuest 1.
    You do realize your links are super, super, super old now, right ?

    And sure there is some deviation. But its still closer to EQ than for example Vanguard was. I definitely hope they'll include some of the features of Vanguard later - esp those that worked well, such as the Blood Mage.
    Haha I do/did realize that. That's why I started my post by saying...

    I'm not 100% sure if this information is still accurate (it was from 3 years ago after all), but during the Kickstarter they went into some detail on how they plan for 8 of the classes to play. 
    Until more specific class information is released, the KS details are all we have to go by. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    edited February 2017
    The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different -- more specialized -- class. The thing I didn't like about Vanguard classes is I felt like they were trying to add too many types of healers to make their 4:4:4:4 idea work (tanks, healers, casters, offensive melee). I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.

    I'm a big fan on lore-centered classes rather than ones that seem to be imagined from a game-balance perspective. While the Vanguard classes seemed to have good lore about them -- you can tell that some of them were done to fit this 4:4:4:4 framework. That framework even changed how they decided to do some classes.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different -- more specialized -- class. The thing I didn't like about Vanguard classes is I felt like they were trying to add too many types of healers to make their 4:4:4:4 idea work (tanks, healers, casters, offensive melee). I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.

    I'm a big fan on lore-centered classes rather than ones that seem to be imagined from a game-balance perspective. While the Vanguard classes seemed to have good lore about them -- you can tell that some of them were done to fit this 4:4:4:4 framework. That framework even changed how they decided to do some classes.

    I don't know why a game couldn't have a disciple and a shaman. They were about as different as any two healer classes ever created. Necro and BM had more in common than sham and disc.

    I think every game has room for a healer that heals using melee abilities and chain attacks. If Pantheon had such a class, it would 100% be my main on day 1. It wouldn't even have to be OP!


  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    The Disciple class design was nonsensical. It was a top tier healer that was also the best soloer in the game. Shaman was similar in EQ but at least their dps was awful, unlike Disciples.

    So basically we had a pivotal group role running around soloing 90% of the time. Their decent damage marginalized the monk class since Disciples were way more useful in groups and by far better at soloing. Disciple reminded me of one of those awful EQ2 class splits where one class was always noticeably better than the other. People don't want Disciple because of their "revolutionary" mechanics, they want them because they were OP as ****.
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    I think melee healer is a good idea. But it could be done on a Shaman, Cleric, or even Paladin. It looks like Pantheon my well go the route of making the Cleric replace the game play of Disciple (the battle cleric that is).
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430

    The problem I had with Blood Mage is I felt like it took a big part of what was interesting about Necromancer and put it in a different -- more specialized -- class. [...] I don't know if a game needs a Disciple and Shaman for example.

    What. The. Frak ?!?!!?!?

    Oh. My. God ...

    Have you even played any of these classes ?

    There have been three types of Shamans - one tank (Bear), one melee (Wolf), one magic (Phoenix). So, with your line of logic, we could have replaced all other three healer classes with Shaman, lolz.

    Reality of course was drastically different, because Shamans, all three variants, operated completely differently from any of the other healer classes.

    Cleric was the straight all out healer with the big easy spells and massive defense. They also got the best setup of buffs. They didnt get any specialized buffs, though, such as runspeed. They had five specializations but those didnt played so differently, really.

    Shamans have been the other healer type. Again it still was straight classical healing, but unlike Cleric they couldnt just put up the big heal over time spells, they had to carefully apply their reactive heals instead. Their main advantage was their strong debuffs. And they got good spells and did better damage than Cleric, even the Bear type.

    Disciples have been the single target healers. Extremely different from any other healer class, especially since they didnt need mana at all, most of the time. Good evasion, too. Their buffs have been, well, forgettable. Their damage output was second only to Blood Mage.

    Blood Mage of course was the lifetap to heal magician. Awesome class, completely different from anything else. Good general buffs, but also nice trickery buffs. I also played Necromancer (got both classes to about level 40) and the difference was really massive. Thus no, in no way was Blood Mage "just a necromancer healer".

    It was the same with mages and tricksters. Which by your logic could also be melted into one class, lolz.

    The area in which I felt Vanguard lacked customization was tanks. Tanks really played too much alike. I mean okay, solo they played extremely differently: Warriror was the glas cannon, best dps of all tanks but they could only stand next to the mob and take the hits, Paladin could kill anything but their dps was really not that high, while Dread Knight was the king of the hill when soloing in good gear.

    But in group ? You kept aggro. Certainly a bit differently, yes. But it really was more kind of a subclass system.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,227
    I always felt the blood mage in Vanguard reminded me of the Empathy Defender who could pain heal in City of Heroes. I always loved the different builds you could mix and match in City of X.
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The Disciple class design was nonsensical. It was a top tier healer that was also the best soloer in the game. Shaman was similar in EQ but at least their dps was awful, unlike Disciples.

    So basically we had a pivotal group role running around soloing 90% of the time. Their decent damage marginalized the monk class since Disciples were way more useful in groups and by far better at soloing. Disciple reminded me of one of those awful EQ2 class splits where one class was always noticeably better than the other. People don't want Disciple because of their "revolutionary" mechanics, they want them because they were OP as ****.
    Nonsense. I enjoyed the combat mechanics of the class because they were incredible (melee attacks and chain attacks which provided heals and hots). How powerful they are is irrelevant to how fun the class was. The simple solution is to tweak the amount of damage, while leaving their healing potency intact to play that role.


  • ScottB2JScottB2J Member UncommonPosts: 26
    Yea, I dunno about all this.  Feel like the classes could be better focused
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,381
    I think Pantheon will be its own thing, with major influences from EQ and from Vanguard.

    But truly, if they just re-skinned EQ with modern graphics I would be ok with that too lol. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,592
    edited February 2017
    Amathe said:
    I think Pantheon will be its own thing, with major influences from EQ and from Vanguard.

    But truly, if they just re-skinned EQ with modern graphics I would be ok with that too lol. 
     https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/

    • An MMO Evolved

      Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
    • Atmosphere/Climate System

      One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
    • Powerful Spells and Abilities: The Living Codex

      In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. 
      Learn more
    • Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups

      The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp. 
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    • Colored Mana System

      Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community. 
    • Progeny System

      Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
    • Situational Gear

      In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind). 
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    Post edited by Nanfoodle on
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