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No group finder

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,152
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great people and put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.
    What interaction do you keep bringing up that is missing in games that help match groups?

    You group up, put friendly and/or good players on your friends list, and then disband. When you group up again you send them a message and ask if they want to form up with you. Then if you're missing you all go looking for bodies to fill the slots.

    Disposable is how you treat people. Don't treat them that way and they won't be. Someone isn't disposable because arbitrary algorithms keep your characters together. Someone is disposable because you don't value them.
    No, they're disposable because the system allows you to circumvent any real interaction. You're doing an excellent job of explaining it away though, while trying to put it back on me.
    Help me understand. Like I asked before, what interaction are you referring to? I have plenty of interaction grouping so I don't know exactly what you're referring to?

    And once again, even if a system allowed you to dispose of people doesn't mean you have to. And like I said in the above post, if you have 10 people dedicated in your guild you don't need anyone else to run the content.
    It's two things. One, it humanizes people when you actually have to interact with them, making for a potentially better experience. People should be people, but whether you see it that way or not, that is the way things currently work in many mmos.

    The second thing I believe is important, is letting players find ways to do things for themselves. Just doing away with so many of the gamey systems that do things for you and letting players succeed independently is an important aspect of MMOs that has been done away with.
    I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.

    It would depend on what systems you're talking about specifically, but I don't disagree that putting some effort into making things happen is a good thing. With regards to grouping I want pretty much the same things Sovrath listed, a way to find people that like to game the way I do and filter out searching through those who don't.

    I find it ironic that after so strongly promoting a grouping centric mmorpg mentality that you would describe one of the modern design flaws as not being able to succeed independently.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:

    I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.

    It would depend on what systems you're talking about specifically, but I don't disagree that putting some effort into making things happen is a good thing. With regards to grouping I want pretty much the same things Sovrath listed, a way to find people that like to game the way I do and filter out searching through those who don't.

    I find it ironic that after so strongly promoting a grouping centric mmorpg mentality that you would describe one of the modern design flaws as not being able to succeed independently.
    Grouping Centric MMORPGs do not work today because Developers spend $100+ Million on MMORPGs today, look at SWTOR, $250 Million, ESO is around $250 Million, Wildstar, and so on ALL are spending Hundreds of Millions of Dollars.  They HAVE TO be solo based games with Automated Group Finder tools.  WHY?  Because 100K or 250K subs will not pay the bills.  Pantheon is not going for a large budget MMO.  They will likely succeed and prove people wrong because everyone since WOW became a thing figured WOW was the new norm for MMORPGs.  Well none of succeed.  Yes FFXIV is doing well but that is mainly because how many FF fans there are.  
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
    I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders.  Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine.  You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group.  It also pushes you to make friends.  Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.  
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,259
    edited January 2017
    danwest58 said:
    The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost.  You would pay off the game in 23 Months.
    Fact is that if you believe the game will have anywhere near 100k subs, you are delusional. Fact is that paying off the game in 23 month is disaster.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost.  You would pay off the game in 23 Months.
    Fact is that if you believe the game will have anywhere near 100k subs, you are delusional. Fact is that paying off the game in 23 month is disaster.


    Fact is,  arm chair devs and there predictions are laughable.




  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,609
    Torval said:

    I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.

    Agreed. Forcing people to be sociable at that kind of level is unacceptable. I love LFG tools as they've made finding a group less of chore.

    IMO my main aim is to play with others, not make friends. I do expect interaction in regard to discussing tactics/strategies for taking on content.

    However I'm not there to just "shoot the shit"/make friends. I can do that outside of group content where social activities should be done IMO.

    Also, if your group content is that dull you have to socialise to those levels (like in EQ) I probably won't be playing.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,259
    SavageHorizon said:
    Fact is,  arm chair devs and there predictions are laughable.
    Indeed, that's what I said...
  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    immodium said:
    Torval said:

    I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.

    Agreed. Forcing people to be sociable at that kind of level is unacceptable. I love LFG tools as they've made finding a group less of chore.

    IMO my main aim is to play with others, not make friends. I do expect interaction in regard to discussing tactics/strategies for taking on content.

    However I'm not there to just "shoot the shit"/make friends. I can do that outside of group content where social activities should be done IMO.

    Also, if your group content is that dull you have to socialise to those levels (like in EQ) I probably won't be playing.

    I like your way of summing up how I feel about things when I log into an MMORPG.

     When I read your post I get this sigh of relief, because what you write, makes me feel free to just play the game and not be forced into design made friendships.

    I want the freedom to choose when I want to socialize, which is not typically in a dungeon, where I focus on playing out my characters role.

     In the downtime outside dungeons though, when taking a break from adventuring or dungeoning, Im all for socializing. Love reading the generalchats, love watching little hubs of people emoting and dualling and often jump into these different groups.
     
     


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited January 2017
    danwest58 said:

    Bungee also had to cater to everyone because they spent what $500 Million on Destiny?  If Pantheon spends around $30 Million and gets 100K or more subs they game will do OK.  <snip>
    My point was that whilst gamers today have a multiplicity of ways to communicate outside the game a sample size of 30M+ expected "something more" despite the PS4 and XB1 both having some inbuilt communication tools. 

    As far as it being OK if it only costs $30M and they have 100k recurring subscriptions: how many box sales; factor in tax (on subs and box sales); operating costs; interest on capital if money has been borrowed and allow for profit. The latter - profit - is part of the reason why what Destiny, for example, will have cost Activision Blizzard a lot more than it cost Bungee to make.

    And then of course there is churn. For 100k to "stick around" how many had to start the journey?

    Whatever it costs if the development costs are recovered on "day 1" the game will be in a much stronger position. That is the challenge however. How to make the game attractive whilst keeping costs down.
  • bananbanan Member UncommonPosts: 9
    edited January 2017
    What i miss is the feeling of committing to an adventure so to speak. Being able to just click a button and insta port to the dungeon and zerg through it doesn't give me that feeling. There are alot of games that i can do that in if i want to. Convenience does not feel immersive to me, and i miss that.. even if it can be frustrating at times.
  • nate1980nate1980 Member UncommonPosts: 1,947
    I get it.  I understand why this game can be popular and is needed by many.  But is this a pendulum swing in the opposite direction to far?  With no group finder do anyone not see the frustration it will bring to not being able to find a group to do what you want to do?  

    I have only done a small amount of research on this game but that stood out or have I missed a follow up?   I can just remember when group finder was introduced to mmo's  it was amazing.  It now has caused nostalgia goggles to "remember when"  oh those were great times.  No actually waiting hours to find a group sucked.  

    I will though keep a watch out at this game but that alone has put a pause to back the game.  
    I never found this to be an issue when playing DAoC. Because grouping was most efficient, it was no problem finding groups at your more popular camping and dungeon spots.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    danwest58 said:
    Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
    I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders.  Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine.  You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group.  It also pushes you to make friends.  Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.  
    I wonder how many of the people in this thread realize/remember that even good ol' Everquest had a primitive group-finder.
    It was definitely crude, but even so it played a HUGE part in finding people for groups.

    Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    "Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre"

    Crucial to remember that these are two very different design issues.

    There is no reason why Pantheon shouldn't have multiple different group finder tools - which is what has been indicated - and people use whichever one they are happy to use. 

    Travel time - for that is what it comes down to - is a very different issue.
    Do you auto-port? Do you have portals outside dungeon entrances - is this any different?
    And different games have done this in different ways. (And if I name one it will probably turn into a discussion on that game rather than the general issue). And its a different topic.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable, not a bad thing in itself, but it does mean that those who have trouble socialising will effectively be at a disadvantage to those who make friends easily, and as players will likely only allow 'friends' into their groups, after all who would trust someone who maybe acted a bit shifty or evasive into their group for dungeon content, loners, misfits the socially inept, those are the people who will likely be stood around begging for groups to do content, and being largely ignored, regardless of whether they are tanks, healers or dps.
    The game could be an interesting social experiment in some ways, you only have to look at games like Eve Online to see how important if not integral, the social aspects of the game are.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited January 2017

    danwest58 said:
    Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
    I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders.  Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine.  You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group.  It also pushes you to make friends.  Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.  

    Agree.
    I think people are confusing LFG Finders (EQ + EQ2) with Dungeon Finders (WoW).
    Having a tool that let you know if people are looking for a group is very helpful and it doesn't interfere with the social interaction which is still required to form a group (Asking the players to join).
    WoW Dungeon finder on the other hand is very impersonal, it treats players like numbers and kill the social interaction from the get-go.

    LFG Finders = Yes
    Dungeon Finders = No

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,259
    edited January 2017
    Phry said:
    Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable
    How exactly do you force them to play the game and "socialize" instead of playing some other game...?
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Gdemami said:
    Phry said:
    Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable
    How exactly do you force them to play the game and "socialize" instead of playing some other game...?
    With the amount of games available these days that is indeed a very significant problem.
  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    Phry said:
    Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable, not a bad thing in itself, but it does mean that those who have trouble socialising will effectively be at a disadvantage to those who make friends easily, and as players will likely only allow 'friends' into their groups, after all who would trust someone who maybe acted a bit shifty or evasive into their group for dungeon content, loners, misfits the socially inept, those are the people who will likely be stood around begging for groups to do content, and being largely ignored, regardless of whether they are tanks, healers or dps.
    The game could be an interesting social experiment in some ways, you only have to look at games like Eve Online to see how important if not integral, the social aspects of the game are.

    Not sure on what basis someone find your post funny. But maybe you were trying to be funny, I dont know.

     The point you raise in this post very much matters.


    People are different, come from different walks in life, different cultures, language barriers. All these things have been overcome in progressed games with a LFD and LFR.


    I dont see how its a bad thing to actually make clever game designs, like these LFR and LFD tools, when it helps overcome the above challenges.

     Especially considering, there is not a single thing standing in the way of someone making their own groups manually, if they still want to.

     

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited January 2017
    danwest58 said:

    Grouping Centric MMORPGs do not work today because Developers spend $100+ Million on MMORPGs today, look at SWTOR, $250 Million, ESO is around $250 Million, Wildstar, and so on ALL are spending Hundreds of Millions of Dollars.  They HAVE TO be solo based games with Automated Group Finder tools.  WHY?  Because 100K or 250K subs will not pay the bills.  Pantheon is not going for a large budget MMO.  They will likely succeed and prove people wrong because everyone since WOW became a thing figured WOW was the new norm for MMORPGs.  Well none of succeed.  Yes FFXIV is doing well but that is mainly because how many FF fans there are.  
    We don't know game costs. A poster in another thread had much lower numbers. They were guesses as well. Simple enough to recognise that the cost to develop a game is a factor in the games long term financial health.

    And comments can be made about the games you list. Wildstar was heavily promoted as a group centric raid focused hard core old fashioned game. (Did I hit all the tight buttons?). SWTOR is touted by those who play as a group friendly game. ESO is not an "mmo that promotes solo play" - its a solo game and a co-op game and a group centred game. 

    And games don't have to be solo centric. Have you tried Respawn's Titanfall? Its mandatory group only. Star Wars Battle Field? You can solo but the biggest complaint against the game is its almost group only. Key points however: expensive successful titles and group centric.

    What developers have to do - easy to say very hard to do - is develop (and market) a game with a set of features that enough people will buy to allow them to recover their costs. However much they have spent.
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,657
    edited January 2017
    Aradune said:
    TENTING said:
    ..
    While the primary focus is on group content, there will also be solo and raid content.

    Also in-game tools to help people find groups, form friendships, create guilds, and keep people together so they can focus on playing the game and not finding each other will be a huge part of Pantheon.
    Playing the map-devils advocate for a second, You could argue that maps are a very important and useful tool for "focus on playing the game and not on finding eachother". Now I grew up in eq so through thousands of (at times not very fun) hours I learned the zones, learned how to find my way with printed maps (later maps open in a browser) and /loc command - It was something I endured, but never something I enjoyed. While I appreciate the idea about navigating by learning the area, at least in eq the vast amount of zones and their design made it almost impossible to remember.

    I am not sure what other means Pantheon will have to help getting people together, but I think the reality is that more often than not players will be invited to places they have not been before (which is a point of exploring), and as such without a map will be forced to get extensive direction instructions and spend much time on travelling, not to mention take focus away from the actual game (the fun part).

    In eq what would happen is you either didn't bother with newbies, or spend those 20 minutes sending out a guide to pick them up, later we got Call of Hero and even later Fellowship summons. All eq players have tried this scenario often, where a whole evening was "wasted" just trying to get a group together and getting everyone to location, all including getting gates, guiding, holding while waiting for tank, heal, cc, slows, handling replacements and maybe a wipe or two on toop. My point is maps solve some of these issues, and I have not heard any specifics about how to address the challenge of having players spend time playing the game more than spending time getting together to play the game. 

    The lfg tools planned I am happy about, they are the natural solution to the lfg typing madness you had to go through to collect 6 players, and not taking it too far with auto-grouping as is the problem in wow. Perfect example of mechanics evolution that when implemented correctly, improves an oldschool game without messing with its core values.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Phry said:
    Gdemami said:
    Phry said:
    Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable
    How exactly do you force them to play the game and "socialize" instead of playing some other game...?
    With the amount of games available these days that is indeed a very significant problem.
    Yes it is....for other games.
    Pantheon is not in competition with those.
    If you want a slow paced, co-op, social MMO, Pantheon is the ONLY game around.

    Of course we can have endless discussions on how many people prefer a slow paced MMO over the modern fast paced ones, but we don't have a real answer for that, do we?
    It's all suppositions either way.
    I guess we have to wait and see.
    All I am going to say is that many people will be surprised to know how many players actually enjoy this type of MMO.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    LFG, LFD is not a bad thing as long as its NOT insta travel and cross realm.


    It has to be immersive !
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited January 2017
    kjempff said:

    In eq what would happen is you either didn't bother with newbies, or spend those 20 minutes sending out a guide to pick them up, later we got Call of Hero and even later Fellowship summons. All eq players have tried this scenario often, where a whole evening was "wasted" just trying to get a group together and getting everyone to location, all including getting gates, guiding, holding while waiting for tank, heal, cc, slows, handling replacements and maybe a wipe or two on toop. My point is maps solve some of these issues, and I have not heard any specifics about how to address the challenge of having players spend time playing the game more than spending time getting together to play the game. 
    Oh yea, bringing up Call of Hero... I remember how people saw that as so ridiculously useful that entire classes would be passed over for party slots in favor of someone with Call of Hero.

    Which kinda goes to show just how... "niche" Pantheon will be.  Just goes to show that most players indeed despise long travel times even back then when Call of Hero played such a big role in determining if one got a party slot or not.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    ste2000 said:
    If you want a slow paced, co-op, social MMO, Pantheon is the ONLY game around.



    Project 1999
    Project Gorgon

    There are a few others.
    No thanks, that's not what I am looking for.
    It seems like you still don't understand Pantheon demographics.
    Why you guys think we want to play old games with retro graphics and 1999 features?

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