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  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    deniter said:
    Gdemami said:



    dungeons is you don't run them all the time and enter there like they were shopping malls 
    This is why we have the LFD tool today because Dungeons have become nothing more than a Treadmill.  DO X amount of dungeon a week or do X amount of dungeon Dailies a week.  This has killed what Dungeons are in the Fantasy realm.  A Dungeon is something that should be done but not like a Mall or treadmill.  It should be something you plan to do with your friends because its a pain in the ass to do it all because the chance you will die or it needs team work and communication to clear.  

    The problem is today's Dungeons are a waste.  I understand that people want to do them the problem is it shouldnt be a rid in an amusement park you just jump right back on after you get off.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    edited January 2017
    @Torval and @Sovrath , you're right you can meet friendly people and have meaningful social interaction when you get placed into auto matched groups. That's the exception though, not the norm.

    It's the opposite when you must form the groups up manually. You generally have people who are more invested in the group, since putting a group together takes a slight amount of effort (rather than clicking a button to queue up for auto group). Obviously, you can still get a bad group member this way, but you remember their name and you simply don't invite them to the group next time.
    --------------------------------------------
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great people and put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.
    What interaction do you keep bringing up that is missing in games that help match groups?

    You group up, put friendly and/or good players on your friends list, and then disband. When you group up again you send them a message and ask if they want to form up with you. Then if you're missing you all go looking for bodies to fill the slots.

    Disposable is how you treat people. Don't treat them that way and they won't be. Someone isn't disposable because arbitrary algorithms keep your characters together. Someone is disposable because you don't value them.
    No, they're disposable because the system allows you to circumvent any real interaction. You're doing an excellent job of explaining it away though, while trying to put it back on me.


  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.

    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    WellzyC said:
    Torval said: "The larger the server, the more time it takes to build a broader reputation. You can still build one. It starts by building it in smaller circles and expanding that out."
    ------

    This straight up never happens on megaservers. You have your circle you brought with you and that's it. 
    I will attest to the fact that it t does happen. As @Torval says you have to work at it; communicate; be sociable. Isn't this what is - supposedly - going to happen on non-megaservers.

    Whatever the size of server at the end of the day it comes down to people communicating. Whether its a 1k server or 3k or 10k or 50k. The size of the server makes no difference to this process. 

    Its just as wrong to suggest that small servers hinder guilds forming since they will have to be merged - frequently. Vast oversimplification.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    TENTING said:


    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
    Yes, even that is interaction, but that brevity would be atypical. The reality is, every time you remove the need to actually interact and discuss something manually, the more people become an abstraction. It's that line of thinking that leads to full automation and games where players might as well be NPCs, and where kindness or rudeness are irrelevant.


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    edited January 2017
    TENTING said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.

    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
    Even in the overly simplified case where it is only 2 sentences like you described, it is still more meaningful than none. At least you got a conversation started. In an auto-matched group, you can easily go the whole time w/o saying a single word.
    --------------------------------------------
  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    TENTING said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.

    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
    Even in the overly simplified case where it is only 2 sentences like you described, it is still more meaningful than none. At least you got a conversation started. In an auto-matched group, you can easily go the whole time w/o saying a single word.

    I want to hug you and tell you everything is going to be alright. That MMORPGs are full of people waiting out there just to talk to you.

     They stand beside you in any city, they fly past you in any area, they fight beside you at a WB, they are right there next to you.

     And in groups made in LFDs, they are right there, a lot of them ready to tell you hello when you greet them. 
     Ready to accept a friendrequest, if you ask them.

     Ofcourse not everyone will be interested, but even if we removed LFD and LFR, there would still be the very same people not interested.
     
     I fear its not the tools that makes the people do one thing or the other. People just do people things. But most of them will greet you, if you ride up to them and say hello.
  • GitmixGitmix Member UncommonPosts: 603
    edited January 2017
    GROUP FINDERS AND SOLO CONTENT ARE THE SINGLE BIGGEST REASONS WHY MMOS BECAME TERRIBLE!!!

    The most attractive feature of any true MMO is human interaction, communication and experience. If you remove that then the games become just as dull as a bad single player game.

    Old school MMO players have a hard time enjoying modern games because modern MMOs do everything possible to get rid of player interdependence, they allow players to go from A to Z without ever speaking to anyone else. That's the worste possible design for an MMO, a clear sign that the devs have no idea what they're doing.

    It's not about sandbox or themepark, it's about games promoting human interaction.
    It's the experience of meeting new people and sharing adventures with them that players loved so much in older games, not that the games themselves were better entertainment. Without the human experience those older games were total garbage compared to today.

    It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs.

    Finding groups is always the first step towards meeting people and sharing experiences with them, if you automate the process you remove the need for people to start communicating and without communication or human bonding there will never be a memorable experience in any MMO.



  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    edited January 2017
    TENTING said:
    TENTING said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.

    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
    Even in the overly simplified case where it is only 2 sentences like you described, it is still more meaningful than none. At least you got a conversation started. In an auto-matched group, you can easily go the whole time w/o saying a single word.

    I want to hug you and tell you everything is going to be alright. That MMORPGs are full of people waiting out there just to talk to you.

     They stand beside you in any city, they fly past you in any area, they fight beside you at a WB, they are right there next to you.

     And in groups made in LFDs, they are right there, a lot of them ready to tell you hello when you greet them. 
     Ready to accept a friendrequest, if you ask them.

     Ofcourse not everyone will be interested, but even if we removed LFD and LFR, there would still be the very same people not interested.
     
     I fear its not the tools that makes the people do one thing or the other. People just do people things. But most of them will greet you, if you ride up to them and say hello.
    The mechanics of the game play a huge part in social interaction. I believe more so than the players themselves.

    Personally, I can be social and group all day in EQ1.

    Or I can play The Division and be auto matched to run group content there without saying a word to another player. Not because I'm all of a sudden less friendly when I play The Division. It's because of the game mechanics in place. There is no point in talking to other players in that game. To be honest, I don't even know how to talk to another player in the Division, and I have found no reason in trying to ever learn how.

    P.S. Please don't see this post as an endorsement of The Division by me. The game is boring and awful.
    --------------------------------------------
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,139
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great people and put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.
    What interaction do you keep bringing up that is missing in games that help match groups?

    You group up, put friendly and/or good players on your friends list, and then disband. When you group up again you send them a message and ask if they want to form up with you. Then if you're missing you all go looking for bodies to fill the slots.

    Disposable is how you treat people. Don't treat them that way and they won't be. Someone isn't disposable because arbitrary algorithms keep your characters together. Someone is disposable because you don't value them.
    No, they're disposable because the system allows you to circumvent any real interaction. You're doing an excellent job of explaining it away though, while trying to put it back on me.
    Help me understand. Like I asked before, what interaction are you referring to? I have plenty of interaction grouping so I don't know exactly what you're referring to?

    And once again, even if a system allowed you to dispose of people doesn't mean you have to. And like I said in the above post, if you have 10 people dedicated in your guild you don't need anyone else to run the content.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great people and put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.
    What interaction do you keep bringing up that is missing in games that help match groups?

    You group up, put friendly and/or good players on your friends list, and then disband. When you group up again you send them a message and ask if they want to form up with you. Then if you're missing you all go looking for bodies to fill the slots.

    Disposable is how you treat people. Don't treat them that way and they won't be. Someone isn't disposable because arbitrary algorithms keep your characters together. Someone is disposable because you don't value them.
    No, they're disposable because the system allows you to circumvent any real interaction. You're doing an excellent job of explaining it away though, while trying to put it back on me.
    Help me understand. Like I asked before, what interaction are you referring to? I have plenty of interaction grouping so I don't know exactly what you're referring to?

    And once again, even if a system allowed you to dispose of people doesn't mean you have to. And like I said in the above post, if you have 10 people dedicated in your guild you don't need anyone else to run the content.
    It's two things. One, it humanizes people when you actually have to interact with them, making for a potentially better experience. People should be people, but whether you see it that way or not, that is the way things currently work in many mmos.

    The second thing I believe is important, is letting players find ways to do things for themselves. Just doing away with so many of the gamey systems that do things for you and letting players succeed independently is an important aspect of MMOs that has been done away with.


  • TENTINGTENTING Member UncommonPosts: 262
    edited January 2017
    TENTING said:
    TENTING said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:
    Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
    What do you mean by disposable players?

    You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.

    The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.

    Hence they're disposable.

    Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:

     If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :

    Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon

    Player 2 : Inv

    First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.

     If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.

     I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?

     
    Even in the overly simplified case where it is only 2 sentences like you described, it is still more meaningful than none. At least you got a conversation started. In an auto-matched group, you can easily go the whole time w/o saying a single word.

    I want to hug you and tell you everything is going to be alright. That MMORPGs are full of people waiting out there just to talk to you.

     They stand beside you in any city, they fly past you in any area, they fight beside you at a WB, they are right there next to you.

     And in groups made in LFDs, they are right there, a lot of them ready to tell you hello when you greet them. 
     Ready to accept a friendrequest, if you ask them.

     Ofcourse not everyone will be interested, but even if we removed LFD and LFR, there would still be the very same people not interested.
     
     I fear its not the tools that makes the people do one thing or the other. People just do people things. But most of them will greet you, if you ride up to them and say hello.
    The mechanics of the game play a huge part in social interaction. I believe more so than the players themselves.

    Personally, I can be social and group all day in EQ1.

    Or I can play The Division and be auto matched to run group content there without saying a word to another player. Not because I'm all of a sudden less friendly when I play The Division. It's because of the game mechanics in place. There is no point in talking to other players in that game. To be honest, I don't even know how to talk to another player in the Division, and I have found no reason in trying to ever learn how.

    P.S. Please don't see this post as an endorsement of The Division by me. The game is boring and awful.
    I feel you, I think its difficult too. Even Im someone who have an easy time getting in contact with people, I just some days dont have the energy to be the one taking the initiative. Likewise when others come to me, it can take a few minutes for me to wake up and be ready to engage in conversation. 

     Whether LFD is there or not, its not that it would make a giant difference to me, but I know Id play dungeons less. Premade finder in WoW forexample is pretty much an extension of how people looking for more would go about things in a general chat. But I rarely use it. The lvl of ambition people have when they want to make groups, I find the whole thing stressfull and I just want to relax when doing content in a game.

     I wont pull the "I have a RL card" I'll just say that gaming to me is for relaxation, not the place I try to test myself and push myself into stressfull situations.

     In that sense I agree with you, games can have designs that can deside to what degree people wish to be social.

     When games, such as WoW add so many ways of dividing players into "you are welcome and you are not welcome in our groups" gameplay. It has made me stop the achievers game all together. For years I had no issue pushing myself to be on pair with the highest demands in the game, but I didnt find it very social and even if Id go as far and say that there was social interaction along the way, it was more often a kind of social interaction that made me indifferent to people in that scene of the game. 

     Instead I have found that the greatest personalities who leaves the greatest impact on me are people who come up with social events, bringing their own imagination and soul into the game.

     Id be sad to see LFD and LFR go, its really nice tools. When that said though, I think its a fair and reasonable subject to explore what creative ideas a company could add to help people engage with one another. If I were to add just one suggestion, Id say that people need places to hang out and just be able to watch events and idle, its when people stop running, that the imagination starts spinning and people start dancing with the person next to them. Thats where the magic starts happening.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,139
    edited January 2017
    Torval and Sovrath , you're right you can meet friendly people and have meaningful social interaction when you get placed into auto matched groups. That's the exception though, not the norm.

    It's the opposite when you must form the groups up manually. You generally have people who are more invested in the group, since putting a group together takes a slight amount of effort (rather than clicking a button to queue up for auto group). Obviously, you can still get a bad group member this way, but you remember their name and you simply don't invite them to the group next time.
    What is meaningful social interaction to you?

    Nothing says a looking for group interface has to auto-group you or auto transport you. That's a horrible assumption to make. The last I played DDO it didn't work that way. It was more like an advertisement board and you could filter or sort, something of that nature.

    Auto-grouping and teleporting works awesome in Rift. It fits that game and how dungeons are run. It does what it should really well consistently. That doesn't mean Rift's LFG interface is right for any other game. It also doesn't mean games shouldn't provide the community ways to stay together.

    For example Aradune has mentioned a feature that would allow offline players the option to keep travelling with their group when they log on. Not really a LFG feature itself, but it's the kind of grouping feature that helps promote playing with people you enjoy.

    So instead of worrying if it's going to be like WoW or Rift, and why would anyone try to develop the most awkward implementation for their game anyway, maybe let the topic be rephrased in a way that fits for Pantheon.

    What things could the HUD and UI have to help you find characters to fill in your party. It could be something like a town board where you could post LFG, trade, and other messages. Maybe there could be magic items or a cool thematic messaging system to let you scry other locations. It doesn't mean you get there automatically, but it could give you a reason to travel or meet up with someone. That could be an adventure right there. What ways could the game help you hook up and stay connected with other like minded players?
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,752
    @Torval and @Sovrath , you're right you can meet friendly people and have meaningful social interaction when you get placed into auto matched groups. That's the exception though, not the norm.

    It's the opposite when you must form the groups up manually. You generally have people who are more invested in the group, since putting a group together takes a slight amount of effort (rather than clicking a button to queue up for auto group). Obviously, you can still get a bad group member this way, but you remember their name and you simply don't invite them to the group next time.
    I"m not talking about auto groups. I don't believe in auto groups.

    In my mind, the only way for a group finder to work is to match people with similar game interests and get them talking. Heck, it's sort of like online dating.

    The problem with group finders seems to be that they just throw people together. That's ridiculous as not everyone is going to have the same objectives, ways of playing, etc.

    An example could be Dungeons and Dragons online. I would be the guy who would want to methodically go through the dungeon. However, my experience has always been with people who  barrel through them as fast as possible.

    We all clearly want to go through the dungeon but the way we want to do it would be different. Another example would be games with storied cutscenes. I would be the guy listening to all of them and not "space barring" through them.

    So I'll say again that a group finder should be just that: A tool that introduces you to people for the purpose of finding a group that will support your shared objectives. And how does that happen? you talk to each other, figure out if you want to do things the same way, etc.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,139
    I've played a game recently where the interface let you mention whether you were doing a slower social run or a more hardcore power game speedy run. Both can be fun. The interface lets you flag some of those preferences.

    I thought that was pretty cool and something I would like to see in a lot of games because I have the same issue as Sovrath about the speed runs. Sometimes I want to go slow. Sometimes I feel like powering through but I get someone who wants to go slow. I go slow then because it sucks so bad having to rush when you don't want to. A good LFG should help sort and filter that out so your grouping conversations can be a little more meaningful.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    edited January 2017
    @Torval and @Sovrath sorry I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the auto-matching dungeon finder tools in games such as WOW. The semantics between the two are confusing.

    I am right there with you about having a regular old looking for group tool that helps you identify other players who are looking for a group or groups that need more players, such as was in Everquest 1 (see my earlier post on page 3).

    I don't think anyone disagrees with having that as a feature? It's the "auto-matching" part (meaning players are auto invited and the groups are created by the game) that I was speaking against.
    --------------------------------------------
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,752
    @Torval and @Sovrath sorry I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the auto-matching dungeon finder tools in games such as WOW. The semantics between the two are confusing.

    I am right there with you about having a regular old looking for group tool that helps you identify other players who are looking for a group or groups that need more players, such as was in Everquest 1 (see my earlier post on page 3).

    I don't think anyone disagrees with having that as a feature? It's the "auto-matching" part that I was speaking against.
    exactly! And I think that's the problem when talking about group finders; people start thinking of games that popularized them and thinking that's what they have to be.

    But I share the opinion that group finders, auto zoning to dungeons, etc really stifled communities. Now, the thing is that not everyone cares about "communities". Some people just want a game, maybe play with people but that's about it.

    That's why developers need to know who they are making these games for and then developing for/toward those people.

    I would much prefer to use a group finder that introduced me to people and "that's it" and would never use a group finder that auto matched me as I am a bit picky with who I group with and prefer good, honest, laid back people who just want to have fun and view the mishaps of a group (wiping, running for your life, etc) to be part of the fun alongside the triumphs.


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Scambug said:
    <snip>
    It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs.
    <snip>
    Memories need context though.

    When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.

    DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.

    Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!

    So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.

    And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,344
    gervaise1 said:
    Scambug said:
    <snip>
    It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs.
    <snip>
    Memories need context though.

    When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.

    DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.

    Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!

    So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.

    And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
    IDK anything about the communication issues of Destiny, but isn't that a PS4 exclusive game? It's not surprising that communication would be an issue on a console without a keyboard to easily type?
    --------------------------------------------
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,237
    deniter said:
    You're right, it's definitely not a no brainer at all.

    One part of the mystery of dungeons is you don't run them all the time and enter there like they were shopping malls ready to welcome you and your mates and make sure you're not overwhelmed by conditions inside. There should always be a chance someone gets killed, or you fail for what you were trying to do. Also, a virtual fantasy world has rules of its own. In many of them teleporting is something very few are able to do, and even for them it's not something they can do constantly.

    There are already these action games like WoW or CoD where you wait in a lobby (or a city, if you like) and queue for some action, and that's fun sometimes when you don't have much time. But there's a lack of games that work like a fantasy world simulator, where you can be a known blacksmith or famous treasure hunter, and in these kind of games group finder tools just won't work.
    Thanks for confirming my point...

    Also, so much fail at reading comprehension.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,237
    edited January 2017
    Tokken said:
    This will definitely be a niche game....
    A game with low population isn't niche, it is a failing game and Pantheon is heading towards the latter rather than the former.

    People for whatever reason keep mistaking those two...
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    TENTING said:
    TENTING said:
    TENTING said:
    Dullahan said:
    Sovrath said:
    Dullahan said:


     Id be sad to see LFD and LFR go, its really nice tools. When that said though, I think its a fair and reasonable subject to explore what creative ideas a company could add to help people engage with one another. If I were to add just one suggestion, Id say that people need places to hang out and just be able to watch events and idle, its when people stop running, that the imagination starts spinning and people start dancing with the person next to them. Thats where the magic starts happening.
    Yes that is one thing Blizzard fucked up with WOW is downtime.  You use to have Down time between fighting while leveling and down time between quest, down time between mob pulls in a dungeon.  You had a LOT more social time in older school games.  Today in WOW is nothing but a treadmill to get people to rush through content.  This is the problem with catering to everyone.  Games should be designed with an audience in mind not trying to get all gamers to play a single game.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Gdemami said:
    Tokken said:
    This will definitely be a niche game....
    A game with low population isn't niche, it is a failing game and Pantheon is heading towards the latter rather than the former.

    People for whatever reason keep mistaking those two...
    That would be your personal opinion.   The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost.  You would pay off the game in 23 Months.  Based on the GAME design where it will take you 9 months to a year to get your character maxed out and there is a group of people that yes will pay for a game like this.  

    Now mind you I am not one of them because this is too much EQ1 and FFXI setup where you will be hard press to solo past a certain point.  I like more the UO, SWG and Vanilla/TBC WOW Setup.   

    In Any event if the game can survive around 100K subs Who the Fuck Cares.  Go find a game with a LFD tool and quit trying to make every game WOW.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    edited January 2017
    gervaise1 said:
    Scambug said:
    <snip>
    It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs.
    <snip>
    Memories need context though.

    When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.

    DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.

    Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!

    So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.

    And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
    Bungee also had to cater to everyone because they spent what $500 Million on Destiny?  If Pantheon spends around $30 Million and gets 100K or more subs they game will do OK.  Not every game needs to be fucking WOW and guess what because every game is copying WOW and trying to spend Hundreds of Millions of Dollars they need to cater to the MMORPG Gamer Wannbes.  
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