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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Nobody took my spawns as long as I didn't leave them up. If you cleared the room and party members are camping in the room while you pull to it, nobody would take it. Dunno what server you saw behavior other than this, but that's how it worked on all of the live servers I played on, as well as both p99 blue and red.
    There it is folks, on his server it never happened that way. It was all good from the get-go.

    Now you fucked up noobs on the other servers that were doing it wrong, well it was your server's fault too. They were also ALL doing it wrong. So now you know why it wasn't working for you but will work because "anecdotal fact magic" says so.
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.


  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    edited January 2017
    Gdemami said:
    TyranusPrime said:
    of course there were still issue that existed in the early MMO days, but people actually cared about how they represented themselves to the community..
    ...and you say that right after "Rose-colored glasses aside". /sigh
    Let me rephrase to be more clear then.. While it is easy to lose one's perspective on what was good and what was bad in the beginning of MMOs, there can be no mistaking the positive benefits to how people behaved, socialized, and represented themselves..

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Dullahan said:
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.
    And guess what happened? Once there was a game fixing those issues, they did leave. Can't you really see that...?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Gdemami said:
    Dullahan said:
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.
    And guess what happened? Once there was a game fixing those issues, they did leave. Can't you really see that...?
    There were a lot of reasons why people left EQ, and that would have been pretty far down the list by 2005.


  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen Member UncommonPosts: 2,483
    Torval said:
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Yup you are correct on page 2 of this thread he confirms this..

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329
    edited January 2017
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    Sorry but I disagree with this.  Since LFD was introduced people endlessly tell others in their guild and people who are LFG in chat to "Just Fucking QUEUE up and stop Fucking ASKING for help to run a Dungeon"   Sorry them are the exact words I have heard time and time and time again since LFD game out.   YES Game Mechanics has an impact on how players behave and how the game is created.  
    1) Correlation does not imply causation.
    2) You mistake cause for consequence.

    Supply always follows the demand, not the other way round.
    It sounds to me like there is quite the DEMAND for "no LFD tool" in Pantheon, so I guess the SUPPLY will follow?
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Come on....I didn't say "LFG", I said "LFD" -- meaning an automatic group forming, auto porting to the dungeon finder tool.

    A traditional Looking for Group tool that doesn't do all of the work for you is perfectly fine (like what is found in EverQuest 1). Which I also have said earlier in this very thread...
    --------------------------------------------
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,110
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.
    There was literally a line forming behind us in the ancient croc room. Some people waiting at the spot, others returning intermittently. They quite surely would have taken the spot. And this was after we were lucky enough to get the spot to begin with. I forgot how many other times we tried and it was already being camped by other people.
    LOL ancient croc, I had to kill Phinny 13 times for my wiz epic.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,991
    Nilden said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.
    There was literally a line forming behind us in the ancient croc room. Some people waiting at the spot, others returning intermittently. They quite surely would have taken the spot. And this was after we were lucky enough to get the spot to begin with. I forgot how many other times we tried and it was already being camped by other people.
    LOL ancient croc, I had to kill Phinny 13 times for my wiz epic.
    Epics weren't in the game yet when I played.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,937
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    Sorry but I disagree with this.  Since LFD was introduced people endlessly tell others in their guild and people who are LFG in chat to "Just Fucking QUEUE up and stop Fucking ASKING for help to run a Dungeon"   Sorry them are the exact words I have heard time and time and time again since LFD game out.   YES Game Mechanics has an impact on how players behave and how the game is created.  
    1) Correlation does not imply causation.
    2) You mistake cause for consequence.

    Supply always follows the demand, not the other way round.
    It sounds to me like there is quite the DEMAND for "no LFD tool" in Pantheon, so I guess the SUPPLY will follow?
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Come on....I didn't say "LFG", I said "LFD" -- meaning an automatic group forming, auto porting to the dungeon finder tool.

    A traditional Looking for Group tool that doesn't do all of the work for you is perfectly fine (like what is found in EverQuest 1). Which I also have said earlier in this very thread...
    LFG and LFD are just slang terms. They only ever mean anything at all when they're defined or in the context of a game.

    Aradune also said there would be no insta porting to dungeons either so why is that still being used as a counter to better grouping tools. I would have to go back through the thread again to check, but the last I looked no one was advocating that Pantheon have insta port automation. Everyone advocating for some sort of grouping UI want things to help them find compatible players so they can go have adventures.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329
    edited January 2017
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    Sorry but I disagree with this.  Since LFD was introduced people endlessly tell others in their guild and people who are LFG in chat to "Just Fucking QUEUE up and stop Fucking ASKING for help to run a Dungeon"   Sorry them are the exact words I have heard time and time and time again since LFD game out.   YES Game Mechanics has an impact on how players behave and how the game is created.  
    1) Correlation does not imply causation.
    2) You mistake cause for consequence.

    Supply always follows the demand, not the other way round.
    It sounds to me like there is quite the DEMAND for "no LFD tool" in Pantheon, so I guess the SUPPLY will follow?
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Come on....I didn't say "LFG", I said "LFD" -- meaning an automatic group forming, auto porting to the dungeon finder tool.

    A traditional Looking for Group tool that doesn't do all of the work for you is perfectly fine (like what is found in EverQuest 1). Which I also have said earlier in this very thread...
    LFG and LFD are just slang terms. They only ever mean anything at all when they're defined or in the context of a game.

    Aradune also said there would be no insta porting to dungeons either so why is that still being used as a counter to better grouping tools. I would have to go back through the thread again to check, but the last I looked no one was advocating that Pantheon have insta port automation. Everyone advocating for some sort of grouping UI want things to help them find compatible players so they can go have adventures.

    The context was from the @danwest58 post that I quoted, which he defined LFD as having to "queue" up for a dungeon. Queueing up for a dungeon, to me means auto matching and auto porting to a dungeon. Not a looking for group tool in the UI. Does it mean something else to you?

    If you don't understand the context, then ask for clarification instead of implying that I am against the game having a looking for group tool, which I certainly am not. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Nobody took my spawns as long as I didn't leave them up. If you cleared the room and party members are camping in the room while you pull to it, nobody would take it. Dunno what server you saw behavior other than this, but that's how it worked on all of the live servers I played on, as well as both p99 blue and red.
    There it is folks, on his server it never happened that way. It was all good from the get-go.

    Now you fucked up noobs on the other servers that were doing it wrong, well it was your server's fault too. They were also ALL doing it wrong. So now you know why it wasn't working for you but will work because "anecdotal fact magic" says so.
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.

    Not every day on every server, but during prime time in vanilla EQ there were limited places to go if you were high level.  Those places filled up.  I remember several times going down to check on the camps and the dungeon was so full that I didn't run into a single mob going in or out.  Rooms were camped, hallways were camped, zone line was camped with people hoping to get into a hallway or room :)

    After Kunark was released there were more places for high levels to go and that relieved some of the pressure.  Not that I would know anything - I only played from 1999 to 2004 :o
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Nobody took my spawns as long as I didn't leave them up. If you cleared the room and party members are camping in the room while you pull to it, nobody would take it. Dunno what server you saw behavior other than this, but that's how it worked on all of the live servers I played on, as well as both p99 blue and red.
    There it is folks, on his server it never happened that way. It was all good from the get-go.

    Now you fucked up noobs on the other servers that were doing it wrong, well it was your server's fault too. They were also ALL doing it wrong. So now you know why it wasn't working for you but will work because "anecdotal fact magic" says so.
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.
    People used to wear that crap like a badge of honor back in the day, as well as prop it up as a social motivator, how they'd sit around and chat while waiting for spawn timers, not to mention whole systems were made (instancing/phasing) to combat it. Fiction indeed.....

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Scott23 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Nobody took my spawns as long as I didn't leave them up. If you cleared the room and party members are camping in the room while you pull to it, nobody would take it. Dunno what server you saw behavior other than this, but that's how it worked on all of the live servers I played on, as well as both p99 blue and red.
    There it is folks, on his server it never happened that way. It was all good from the get-go.

    Now you fucked up noobs on the other servers that were doing it wrong, well it was your server's fault too. They were also ALL doing it wrong. So now you know why it wasn't working for you but will work because "anecdotal fact magic" says so.
    I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. If everyone was having that same problem every day, on every server, people wouldn't have played the game. But go ahead and keep peddling that fiction.

    Not every day on every server, but during prime time in vanilla EQ there were limited places to go if you were high level.  Those places filled up.  I remember several times going down to check on the camps and the dungeon was so full that I didn't run into a single mob going in or out.  Rooms were camped, hallways were camped, zone line was camped with people hoping to get into a hallway or room :)

    After Kunark was released there were more places for high levels to go and that relieved some of the pressure.  Not that I would know anything - I only played from 1999 to 2004 :o
    It wasn't just eq that was like that it was anything with open dungeons and loot/bosses within them. Even DAOC (a PVP title) and SWG (wasn't even a loot driven game) had that problem. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,937
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    Sorry but I disagree with this.  Since LFD was introduced people endlessly tell others in their guild and people who are LFG in chat to "Just Fucking QUEUE up and stop Fucking ASKING for help to run a Dungeon"   Sorry them are the exact words I have heard time and time and time again since LFD game out.   YES Game Mechanics has an impact on how players behave and how the game is created.  
    1) Correlation does not imply causation.
    2) You mistake cause for consequence.

    Supply always follows the demand, not the other way round.
    It sounds to me like there is quite the DEMAND for "no LFD tool" in Pantheon, so I guess the SUPPLY will follow?
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Come on....I didn't say "LFG", I said "LFD" -- meaning an automatic group forming, auto porting to the dungeon finder tool.

    A traditional Looking for Group tool that doesn't do all of the work for you is perfectly fine (like what is found in EverQuest 1). Which I also have said earlier in this very thread...
    LFG and LFD are just slang terms. They only ever mean anything at all when they're defined or in the context of a game.

    Aradune also said there would be no insta porting to dungeons either so why is that still being used as a counter to better grouping tools. I would have to go back through the thread again to check, but the last I looked no one was advocating that Pantheon have insta port automation. Everyone advocating for some sort of grouping UI want things to help them find compatible players so they can go have adventures.

    The context was from the @danwest58 post that I quoted, which he defined LFD as having to "queue" up for a dungeon. Queueing up for a dungeon, to me means auto matching and auto porting to a dungeon. Not a looking for group tool in the UI. Does it mean something else to you?

    If you don't understand the context, then ask for clarification instead of implying that I am against the game having a looking for group tool, which I certainly am not. 
    Yes, I get it. You people keep bringing back up into the conversation like it's relevant. It's not. Unless their team totally backtracks and makes some different mmo instead the whole auto insta port thing it is just not relevant. So why keep going on about it?
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Scott23 said:


    Not every day on every server, but during prime time in vanilla EQ there were limited places to go if you were high level.  Those places filled up.  I remember several times going down to check on the camps and the dungeon was so full that I didn't run into a single mob going in or out.  Rooms were camped, hallways were camped, zone line was camped with people hoping to get into a hallway or room :)

    After Kunark was released there were more places for high levels to go and that relieved some of the pressure.  Not that I would know anything - I only played from 1999 to 2004 :o
    Right. They learned as they went how to better accommodate players with content and more servers. Early on, having over 2000 people per server got crowded at prime time. That was part of the appeal to me though.

    If the game is supposed to be completely open world, and content contested, that means sometimes there will be waiting. It also means items are rarer and more rewarding once you do get them. That's the trade off.

    There is a balance, and VR will have to work to find it during beta.


  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    danwest58 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Dullahan,

    I will disagree with you there.  People like killing Boss mobs that require effort.  For example I loved Vanilla WOW and TBC Raiding, I love FFXIV raiding today.  What I dont like is having to sit in 1 spot for 8 hours waiting and hoping my mob spawns and having to compete with 100+ other players.  That is just fucking stupid.  I did it for 6 months in FFXI and will never do it again.  Thats why I dont want to play Pantheon.  If they took that Dungeon and instanced it like Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW.  I would be 100% game and yes if my group failed we would try again and I wouldn't bitch to the developers that "O MY THIS SHIT IS TOO HARD I AM TOO LAZY TO IMPROVE MY SKILLS"   No I would relish vanilla/tbc dungeons again because they broke the need to sit and wait for hours for stupid shit.  

    Now if it was UO like where the Balron will spawn every few seconds and I take a few friends to kill it 10000 times and i might not ever get that Inv\Vanq Battle Axe that is fine I will find one with the millions of gold I made.  

    Yes there needs to be down time in MMOs but the old way of farming a mob that might 10 hours to spawn is fucking stupid.  


    Honestly there are two methods that can work.

    EQ style, which was placeholders for boss mobs, so the excitement came from "holy crap he spawned!" and the now guarantee that a decent/good/amazing item was going to drop.

    The second method, would be to have the boss mob always spawn, but the item be rare. So the boss mob isn't guaranteed to drop anything of note.

    IMO the second method is worse, because it feels more like pulling the wheel on a slot machine.  I prefer the EQ method because the excitement of "holy sh*t he popped, guys, get your crap together and lets do this!".

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Kunai_VaxKunai_Vax Member RarePosts: 527
    Hrimnir said:
    danwest58 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Dullahan,

    I will disagree with you there.  People like killing Boss mobs that require effort.  For example I loved Vanilla WOW and TBC Raiding, I love FFXIV raiding today.  What I dont like is having to sit in 1 spot for 8 hours waiting and hoping my mob spawns and having to compete with 100+ other players.  That is just fucking stupid.  I did it for 6 months in FFXI and will never do it again.  Thats why I dont want to play Pantheon.  If they took that Dungeon and instanced it like Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW.  I would be 100% game and yes if my group failed we would try again and I wouldn't bitch to the developers that "O MY THIS SHIT IS TOO HARD I AM TOO LAZY TO IMPROVE MY SKILLS"   No I would relish vanilla/tbc dungeons again because they broke the need to sit and wait for hours for stupid shit.  

    Now if it was UO like where the Balron will spawn every few seconds and I take a few friends to kill it 10000 times and i might not ever get that Inv\Vanq Battle Axe that is fine I will find one with the millions of gold I made.  

    Yes there needs to be down time in MMOs but the old way of farming a mob that might 10 hours to spawn is fucking stupid.  


    Honestly there are two methods that can work.

    EQ style, which was placeholders for boss mobs, so the excitement came from "holy crap he spawned!" and the now guarantee that a decent/good/amazing item was going to drop.

    The second method, would be to have the boss mob always spawn, but the item be rare. So the boss mob isn't guaranteed to drop anything of note.

    IMO the second method is worse, because it feels more like pulling the wheel on a slot machine.  I prefer the EQ method because the excitement of "holy sh*t he popped, guys, get your crap together and lets do this!".

    I spent many many hours camping the time lost proto drake in WoW and to this day i still dont have it. 
    Do i regret those hours spent? Nope, i made some friends while camping that mob and i find a kind of enjoyment from activities like that. I dont always need to be killing mobs and rep grinding etc. Sometimes its just nice to chill out and enjoy the game and the people playing it.


  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    I loved camping rare spawns and just killing and really learning my class in some remote area of the world. 

    The buzz you get when you travel half way across the world through dangerous areas is great. 

    You do that and to find that mob is up is great. If the item doesn't drop then I'll come back as many times as I need to. 

    My first experience of this was journey man boots. 




  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    Well, glad we clarified LFD is not the same as LFG.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,329
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    danwest58 said:
    Sorry but I disagree with this.  Since LFD was introduced people endlessly tell others in their guild and people who are LFG in chat to "Just Fucking QUEUE up and stop Fucking ASKING for help to run a Dungeon"   Sorry them are the exact words I have heard time and time and time again since LFD game out.   YES Game Mechanics has an impact on how players behave and how the game is created.  
    1) Correlation does not imply causation.
    2) You mistake cause for consequence.

    Supply always follows the demand, not the other way round.
    It sounds to me like there is quite the DEMAND for "no LFD tool" in Pantheon, so I guess the SUPPLY will follow?
    Where did you get that idea? Aradune even said there will be LFG tools and I think earlier in this very thread.
    Come on....I didn't say "LFG", I said "LFD" -- meaning an automatic group forming, auto porting to the dungeon finder tool.

    A traditional Looking for Group tool that doesn't do all of the work for you is perfectly fine (like what is found in EverQuest 1). Which I also have said earlier in this very thread...
    LFG and LFD are just slang terms. They only ever mean anything at all when they're defined or in the context of a game.

    Aradune also said there would be no insta porting to dungeons either so why is that still being used as a counter to better grouping tools. I would have to go back through the thread again to check, but the last I looked no one was advocating that Pantheon have insta port automation. Everyone advocating for some sort of grouping UI want things to help them find compatible players so they can go have adventures.

    The context was from the @danwest58 post that I quoted, which he defined LFD as having to "queue" up for a dungeon. Queueing up for a dungeon, to me means auto matching and auto porting to a dungeon. Not a looking for group tool in the UI. Does it mean something else to you?

    If you don't understand the context, then ask for clarification instead of implying that I am against the game having a looking for group tool, which I certainly am not. 
    Yes, I get it. You people keep bringing back up into the conversation like it's relevant. It's not. Unless their team totally backtracks and makes some different mmo instead the whole auto insta port thing it is just not relevant. So why keep going on about it?
    It's okay. Apology accepted. 
    --------------------------------------------
  • TaimokTaimok Member UncommonPosts: 1
    To the OP....I sincerely hope Pantheon never puts in what you might consider a "dungeon finder" system. I firmly believe its one of the biggest things wrong with "modern" MMOs.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Taimok said:
    To the OP....I sincerely hope Pantheon never puts in what you might consider a "dungeon finder" system. I firmly believe its one of the biggest things wrong with "modern" MMOs.

    I agree, I hope it never happens,


    When Blizzard did this to WoW it changed the entire social structure.

    - some called it good.
    - some called it bad.

    But one thing as Fact.....It turned the game into a lobby game NOT AN MMO. 
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Kunai_Vax said:

    I spent many many hours camping the time lost proto drake in WoW and to this day i still dont have it. 
    Do i regret those hours spent? Nope, i made some friends while camping that mob and i find a kind of enjoyment from activities like that. I dont always need to be killing mobs and rep grinding etc. Sometimes its just nice to chill out and enjoy the game and the people playing it.

    This is why I play MMOs.
    I don't get people who only enjoy games if they win something.

    It doesn't matter if I never get my dream Sword in Pantheon, what matters is the fun I spent while trying to get it.
    And if it takes one week or forever I don't care, as long as I can chill and have fun with people I am playing with, that's all I care.

    I still remember names of friends I met in EQ and Vanilla WoW, can't say that for any other game I played.

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