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  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Forgrimm said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:

    Yup, that was some of the worst game design ever. I remember helping my friend camp the ancient croc in Guk. It was something like a 45 minute respawn timer, and the croc himself was a rare spawn. Most of the times we'd wait 45 minutes only to have the placeholder mobs spawn. After about 6+ hours of waiting and killing placeholder mobs, the croc finally spawned. We killed it, but instead of dropping the sleeves that my friend was going for, it dropped the leggings. Such an absolute waste of time. And you couldn't even leave the area to do other things in between spawns because other people were "in-line" behind you and you'd lose your spot.
    Yes EQ1 and FFXI have the worse design ever.  I remember waiting over 8 hours for a mob to spawn in FFXI and fucking hated it.  That is why I will not play Pantheon because that design will be in this game.  This bad design setup is why Instances were born and it worked for EVERYONE even though there was no group finders back in Vanilla WOW and TBC.  This is why MMOs should get away from LFD tools and focus on tougher Dungeons that are not designed to be run daily.  Once you do that you could have a much happier MMO community.  
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    I don't think it's a far reach to say that if they have a party finder type system that they should include a transport to the dungeon.
    I mean, if you have to physically walk/ride to a dungeon it does add a possibility for people to interact more in the sense that you might all roll together but that is highly unlikely and I do NOT want to go back to the days of sitting in one zone LFG because that zone is where people group for X dungeon or camp.
    I want to be free to do whatever I feel like doing and still be looking for a group to do a dungeon.  Sitting around with my thumb up my ass is not my idea of fun.  
    If you can form parties from anywhere, that's great but now everyone is coming from different places because they're not all doing the same thing....so what exactly is the point of not transporting everyone to the dungeon then?  As a time sink?  You're not travelling to the dungeon together, after all.  You meet up in the zone that the dungeon is in for like 10 minutes while you walk/ride to the dungeon entrance?  
    There has to be a reason to take the extra time, and not just "because that's how I used to do it".  Give it a purpose, and never have players be idle unless they choose to, or it will fall flat on its face.
    Then you will not like Pantheon.  They will not change nor should they change from their old school design just because that is what you want.  Hell I am not going to play Pantheon because I dont want to sit and wait for spawn timers.  They are also not going to have instances, its all open world Dungeons and no instance travel.  If that is what you want come play FFXIV.  

    Yes they do need to go back to the days of slowing the game down like forcing you to travel to the dungeon because the fast paced gaming has hurt the MMO industry.  If it takes you more time to do a dungeon you do a lot less dungeons you will not chew through the content as fast anymore meaning they can develop more content faster because you spend more time on what you have before needing more.  Now I do think the Random Drops need to be changed in such a way that you dont "I Ran Heroic Mech for the 40th time and the tanking sword never dropped)   That should NEVER happen However it might take you 12 to 15 or so runs before you get lucky on the rarer item.  

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    I get it.  I understand why this game can be popular and is needed by many.  But is this a pendulum swing in the opposite direction to far?  With no group finder do anyone not see the frustration it will bring to not being able to find a group to do what you want to do?  

    I have only done a small amount of research on this game but that stood out or have I missed a follow up?   I can just remember when group finder was introduced to mmo's  it was amazing.  It now has caused nostalgia goggles to "remember when"  oh those were great times.  No actually waiting hours to find a group sucked.  

    I will though keep a watch out at this game but that alone has put a pause to back the game.  
    My first mmo was FF11 and yes finding a group was hard but not having a group finder forced people form guilds. And am not talking about today guilds were you join and leave a guild every few days.
    These guilds were like a second family were every one knew each other, this is what i hope pantheon will bring back.  
    Yep Guilds were very good back before LFD tools.  Now I can see browser tools for groups and players being used that will not kill guilds.  In any event I ran several guilds in my nearly 20 years playing MMOs.  I always had good successful guilds until LFD came out then my guilds outside of my small circle of friends ended up shitty because people never needed others again.  Guilds today are crap and that is because LFD
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.


  • epoqepoq Member UncommonPosts: 394
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Exactly.  If the mob spawns every 5 minutes then how valuable is whats in it's loot table?  The best part of EQ was being in awe of the rarities you would see.  A player with this weapon or this armor that was damn near impossible to get.  And it made you want it even more, so you invested the time you had to so that you could have it.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Dullahan,

    I will disagree with you there.  People like killing Boss mobs that require effort.  For example I loved Vanilla WOW and TBC Raiding, I love FFXIV raiding today.  What I dont like is having to sit in 1 spot for 8 hours waiting and hoping my mob spawns and having to compete with 100+ other players.  That is just fucking stupid.  I did it for 6 months in FFXI and will never do it again.  Thats why I dont want to play Pantheon.  If they took that Dungeon and instanced it like Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW.  I would be 100% game and yes if my group failed we would try again and I wouldn't bitch to the developers that "O MY THIS SHIT IS TOO HARD I AM TOO LAZY TO IMPROVE MY SKILLS"   No I would relish vanilla/tbc dungeons again because they broke the need to sit and wait for hours for stupid shit.  

    Now if it was UO like where the Balron will spawn every few seconds and I take a few friends to kill it 10000 times and i might not ever get that Inv\Vanq Battle Axe that is fine I will find one with the millions of gold I made.  

    Yes there needs to be down time in MMOs but the old way of farming a mob that might 10 hours to spawn is fucking stupid.  
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,309
    edited January 2017
    Yes I agree with Dan on this. I don't think sitting in one spot waiting for a spawn adds any value to the thing I got. It just makes me afraid of losing it but that value comes from an utter waste of my time. I would prefer another method be used but if Pantheon adopts this method which in all likelihood it will than it will depend how much more powerful that item is. If it is something you absolutely must have or if people are going to insist you get it I am no longer inclined to camp things that take this long.
    Chamber of Chains
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up either raising the skill bar too high (to keep items rare) and alienating the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the equation is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    epoq said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Exactly.  If the mob spawns every 5 minutes then how valuable is whats in it's loot table?  The best part of EQ was being in awe of the rarities you would see.  A player with this weapon or this armor that was damn near impossible to get.  And it made you want it even more, so you invested the time you had to so that you could have it.
    While I will agree there is a group of players out there that want that.  I think Pantheon should do just that.  I just think Dullahan's response about "they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby" is just stupid as hell.  I done what Dullahan says and it fucking sucks, that is why I will not play Pantheon BUT I defend Pantheon's right to put it in their game and think they should.   Saying that people do not want that game design but want vanilla/tbc like dungeons where it requires skill and team work and yes if you suck you fail is not something to tell someone to stop playing MMOS.   Now the LFD lovers out there I can agree with that.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Dullahan said:
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up with a game that alienates the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the process is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.
    Dullahan,

    I can agree with you on this.  If you played Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW you would have to agree that content was a challenge, not for the highest skilled players I will agree there.  But your average MMO player that loves to play with people that content still required time but it ALSO required skill and team work.  

    I do agree with you that todays MMOs have gone to the shitter because they cater to everyone.  I just disagree with farming a mob that spawns once every 10 hours for a piece of gear you need to progress.  I look at vanilla/tbc WOW dungeons and see the better option if you done dumb down the content to what they have been since WOTLK.  
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,309
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    Nobody is arguing over the need to killing mobs to get rare items it is camping for insane number of hours that people are objecting over coupled with the need to protect the spot from others in a non instanced dungeon system. There is no need to reevaluate our choice as the premise was acceptable .The inordinate time spans  are objectionable and which if I recall correctly in the cleric epic was one week. Can you imagine camping something for a week 24/7 is crazy . Do you really think people are willing to sit a whole week to get an item?
    Chamber of Chains
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    You're speaking of one solitary action one could choose to do in an MMORPG. If it makes up so much of the experience and the options are so limited that people should avoid it because they don't wanna do that, it would have to be the most shallow MMORPG ever created. Certainly the most shallow I've ever played.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    danwest58 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up with a game that alienates the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the process is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.
    Dullahan,

    I can agree with you on this.  If you played Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW you would have to agree that content was a challenge, not for the highest skilled players I will agree there.  But your average MMO player that loves to play with people that content still required time but it ALSO required skill and team work.  

    I do agree with you that todays MMOs have gone to the shitter because they cater to everyone.  I just disagree with farming a mob that spawns once every 10 hours for a piece of gear you need to progress.  I look at vanilla/tbc WOW dungeons and see the better option if you done dumb down the content to what they have been since WOTLK.  
    I remember running instances in early WoW (back when it was a decent game) for many hours, even days, before getting the "rare" item that I wanted. Many items even took 100s of runs to get. One might say those are the kinds of things that kept people playing for longer than 2 months at a time.


  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,609
    Dullahan said:
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up either raising the skill bar too high (to keep items rare) and alienating the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the equation is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.
    Well hopefully they won't go full EQ as that game was ONLY a time investment. The content wasn't challenging, engaging and most importantly fun.

    image
  • XatshXatsh Member UncommonPosts: 383
    I think rare spawns should exist, that drop worthwhile gear.

    I see nothing wrong with 10+hr spawns if the gear is worth it but not really required to do content. Aka it is simple an upgrade that makes content easier not an upgrade that is required to do content. It is simply another layer of content on top of dungeons/raids/ect.

    I do agree however if you 100% must have X armor from X worldboss to kill another boss. And that armor comes from a 24-72+hr spawn... then yea that should not happen. Then again I am not a fan of pure linear progression models, and I hope Pantheon stays away from them.

    I am not a fan of all BIS gear coming from Dungeon/Raid bosses. Gear needs to come from a spectrum of things, World Bosses that are rare and have good drops needs to be revived in this genre. So do top tier crafted items that rival other endgame drops (Materials just need to be hard to obtain).
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,309
    edited January 2017
    Running an instance over and over is acceptable because you are running them at various intervals and perhaps even days in between. However camping something without a break for 10 hours is really nuts . I don't know how else to make you understand the difference. 
    Chamber of Chains
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    immodium said:
    Dullahan said:
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up either raising the skill bar too high (to keep items rare) and alienating the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the equation is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.
    Well hopefully they won't go full EQ as that game was ONLY a time investment. The content wasn't challenging, engaging and most importantly fun to me.

    FTFY.


  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,996
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.


  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,996
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    danwest58 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Farming mobs should definitely require more than a pure time devotion. It should be challenging, it should be engaging, but when you remove the time factor, you end up with a game that alienates the less skilled players (Wildstar), or something that is too easy and doesn't keep players playing.

    Removing time from the process is exactly why MMORPGs can't keep a playerbase.
    Dullahan,

    I can agree with you on this.  If you played Vanilla WOW and TBC WOW you would have to agree that content was a challenge, not for the highest skilled players I will agree there.  But your average MMO player that loves to play with people that content still required time but it ALSO required skill and team work.  

    I do agree with you that todays MMOs have gone to the shitter because they cater to everyone.  I just disagree with farming a mob that spawns once every 10 hours for a piece of gear you need to progress.  I look at vanilla/tbc WOW dungeons and see the better option if you done dumb down the content to what they have been since WOTLK.  
    I remember running instances in early WoW (back when it was a decent game) for many hours, even days, before getting the "rare" item that I wanted. Many items even took 100s of runs to get. One might say those are the kinds of things that kept people playing for longer than 2 months at a time.
    Yep and I would 100% agree with you on that.  I am also saying that method of MMORPG gaming is acceptable by many and something that would make a good MMO.  It's also not a game design that would cause what you have in today's community because the game design would push for team work, skilled game play and some what of a time sink.  Not as much of a time sink as spawn camping but still a active time sink.


    Edit

    So you know I am in support of what ever Pantheon does and will defend Pantheon not having LFD tools.  I just have a personal preference to rare gear and its vanilla WOW/TBC WOW vs EQ1/FFXI methods.  I am in support of Pantheon doing what they want to do.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,996
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.
    There was literally a line forming behind us in the ancient croc room. Some people waiting at the spot, others returning intermittently. They quite surely would have taken the spot. And this was after we were lucky enough to get the spot to begin with. I forgot how many other times we tried and it was already being camped by other people.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,309
    edited January 2017
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.
    There was literally a line forming behind us in the ancient croc room. Some people waiting at the spot, others returning intermittently. They quite surely would have taken the spot. And this was after we were lucky enough to get the spot to begin with. I forgot how many other times we tried and it was already being camped by other people.
    From my recollection when it was really crowded you aren't allowed to take things outside a room because other groups have dibs on hallways. You are allowed the spawn in the room and the outside spawns only when the dungeon is not so crowded.

    Any way there is no point about arguing about this issue I know my own limits. Hoping the team clarifies how long they are doing the spawn for rares.
    Chamber of Chains
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,996
    cheyane said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Dullahan said:
    Rare spawn system in EQ was awesome. It's part of what made gearing up feel rewarding and items valuable. If people don't like something as core as killing mobs to get rare items, they should probably reevaluate their choice of mmorpgs as a hobby.
    It has nothing to do with killing mobs to get rare items. The part that was terrible game design was having to stay in one spot for hours on end, basically doing nothing, waiting for something to spawn.
    I didn't just sit doing nothing. I think you might have been doing it wrong.
    See my earlier post with the ancient croc example. 45 minute respawn timer, most respawns were placeholder trash mobs. Couldnt leave the area because we'd lose our place. If you consider reading a book in between spawns doing something, then yes, we did something to. It just wasn't anything in-game.
    I know the ancient croc well. There were crocs outside the room to kill and 4 static frogs with one by the zone line. Down that hall there was a ramp that had a lot more mobs to pull. No one would have "taken your spot" if you pull those mobs to that spot between spawns.

    Again, sounds like you were doing it wrong.
    There was literally a line forming behind us in the ancient croc room. Some people waiting at the spot, others returning intermittently. They quite surely would have taken the spot. And this was after we were lucky enough to get the spot to begin with. I forgot how many other times we tried and it was already being camped by other people.
    From my recollection when it was really crowded you aren't allowed to take things outside a room because other groups have dibs on hallways. You are allowed the spawn in the room and the outside spawns only when the dungeon is not so crowded.
    Yup, that's how it was. But you know, we were "doing it wrong" I guess...
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