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I'll say it again, Pantheon will be huge

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  • AkemieAkemie Member UncommonPosts: 45
    I am interested in Pantheon and more than likely will be trying it out; however, the combat in the most recent streams scares me off a bit.  It looks clunky.  Hopefully, that will all be ironed out before any betas.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Distopia said:


    As Kano said earlier Pantheon is going to be a niche within a niche. Hard content, forced grouping, etc.etc.etc... Is an extreme niche as far as long term play goes. Take something like Dark Souls as an example. it sells well initially. Yet also has a huge percentage of people who simply cannot stick it out. Or won't stick it out to completion. That's a single player title though so the box fee is all that matters, quitters have no impact on success.. 

    I also think it's a tad bit odd to expect the eq crowd to carry this title forward, at least to any form of massive success. Simply because most were younger and had far less real life responsibility in those days, which is the only reason they were able to put that kind of time and energy into an MMORPG like EQ ( requiring tons of hours of free time).

    They'll need a good portion of younger players who are always on to give those people the same type of grouping experience they were used to in EQ. Which is why those with little time could get by back in those days. The younger 18-to-20 something crowd was what carried the experience in those older games. Who has the life where they can put in 15 hours into a game on a day to day basis, other than those people? I don't think they can get by on the retired and disabled.

    This is the biggest issue I see with pantheon. If they don't get that younger crowd (which I've yet to see any push toward them).. It will be a ghost town most times of the day, aside from Primetime entertainment hours (7-10 pm) or so.. Not a good place to be for an MMORPG.
    As one of the 'retired and disabled' I can assure you that there are a lot of us around the world. More than enough to deliver a solid base of subscribers to Pantheon. I expect thst the niche of a niche is large enough to deliver 50k solid subscribers for a good game. Who knows it might be ten times that (500k) for a quality product. But time will tell.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Torval said:
    Maybe if you didn't take pot shots and make snarky comments at every other game on the forum then you wouldn't get prickly reactions. Are you that worried about Pantheon that you have to elevate it by putting other games down?
    Some of them are just that bad. When games resort to gating progression in cash shops and nickle and diming their customers, they should be mocked.


  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    How much are they paying this Delete guy to endlessly spam us?
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    Title sounds like a Trump quote.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    edited January 2017
    Distopia said:


    As Kano said earlier Pantheon is going to be a niche within a niche. Hard content, forced grouping, etc.etc.etc... Is an extreme niche as far as long term play goes. Take something like Dark Souls as an example. it sells well initially. Yet also has a huge percentage of people who simply cannot stick it out. Or won't stick it out to completion. That's a single player title though so the box fee is all that matters, quitters have no impact on success.. 

    I also think it's a tad bit odd to expect the eq crowd to carry this title forward, at least to any form of massive success. Simply because most were younger and had far less real life responsibility in those days, which is the only reason they were able to put that kind of time and energy into an MMORPG like EQ ( requiring tons of hours of free time).

    They'll need a good portion of younger players who are always on to give those people the same type of grouping experience they were used to in EQ. Which is why those with little time could get by back in those days. The younger 18-to-20 something crowd was what carried the experience in those older games. Who has the life where they can put in 15 hours into a game on a day to day basis, other than those people? I don't think they can get by on the retired and disabled.

    This is the biggest issue I see with pantheon. If they don't get that younger crowd (which I've yet to see any push toward them).. It will be a ghost town most times of the day, aside from Primetime entertainment hours (7-10 pm) or so.. Not a good place to be for an MMORPG.
    As one of the 'retired and disabled' I can assure you that there are a lot of us around the world. More than enough to deliver a solid base of subscribers to Pantheon. I expect thst the niche of a niche is large enough to deliver 50k solid subscribers for a good game. Who knows it might be ten times that (500k) for a quality product. But time will tell.
    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Tiamat64 said:

    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
    People will be able to play the trial before purchasing.

    EQ topped out around 500k 13 years ago back when most people still didn't have the internet.


  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,204
    The fact EQ still exists and the fact P99 has players is all the proof I need to know that this game has a fair shot at being a viable product in this flooded market of F2P cash shop solo extravaganzas. I myself prefer a game that promotes group play. I also prefer P2P games that don't cater to the rich crowd. I'm tired of seeing Jonny 1, 2 and 3 throwing money at a game I play completely negating the point of MMO's altogether forcing developers to toss out half ass garbage updates to feed the content locust frenzy.

    EQ isn't a niche game, WoW isn't either, nor is FFXIV and they all have forced group content.

  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 655
    DMKano said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    The fact EQ still exists and the fact P99 has players is all the proof I need to know that this game has a fair shot at being a viable product in this flooded market of F2P cash shop solo extravaganzas. I myself prefer a game that promotes group play. I also prefer P2P games that don't cater to the rich crowd. I'm tired of seeing Jonny 1, 2 and 3 throwing money at a game I play completely negating the point of MMO's altogether forcing developers to toss out half ass garbage updates to feed the content locust frenzy.

    EQ isn't a niche game, WoW isn't either, nor is FFXIV and they all have forced group content.

    EQ1s playerbase is very small today, P99 playerbase is *tiny*

    Also mentioning WoW + FFXIV - two games that are AAA solo friendly themeparks - compared to indie-small budget Pantheon which is a lot like EQ1 vanilla - that's a really strange comparison.

    If you want to compare Pantheon to something similar TODAY - it would be P99 - and yeah the population there is miniscule.


    EQ1 is Daybreaks highest populated game they own.

    Comparing Pantheon to P99 is like comparing Apples to Oranges.  
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Dullahan said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
    People will be able to play the trial before purchasing.

    EQ topped out around 500k 13 years ago back when most people still didn't have the internet.
    I remember seeing graphs that showed various game populations. As I remember it Everquest topped out at around 700k. 450k is certainly verifiable.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    EQ1 is Daybreaks highest populated game they own.

    Comparing Pantheon to P99 is like comparing Apples to Oranges.  

    H1Z1 is far more populated than EQ1 - so you are mistaken.

    Pantheon is heavily based on vanilla EQ1 - which is P99 - there is no other game on the market that is closer to Pantheon than P99  - and yes I am talking about gameplay style, pace of combat, group centric content etc...
    A 20 year old emulated game run volunteers, plagued it's entire lifespan by staff corruption, with a painfully slow development timeline, overrun by a hardcore playerbase, with an economy swamped in mudflation, that hasn't launched a new server in it's 7 year lifespan and has no future development planned, is not at all representative of what Pantheon will offer or it's potential popularity - despite some mechanical similarities.


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
    People will be able to play the trial before purchasing.

    EQ topped out around 500k 13 years ago back when most people still didn't have the internet.
    I remember seeing graphs that showed various game populations. As I remember it Everquest topped out at around 700k. 450k is certainly verifiable.
    700K never happened for EQ1, the got close to 500K

    if there was such a huge demand for EQ1 vanilla game today:

    - P99 wouldn't have around 1200 players at peak, it would be in tens of thousands
    - There would be a at least half a dozen EQ1 "clones" in the works right now

    Neither is happening - you know why?

    Because there isn't 450k players who'd play EQ1 type game today - that's why, people grew up, they have full time jobs and families.

    EQ1 required vast amounts of time to play - this kind of time commitment is simply unmanageable today for players who have families and jobs.
     

    700k? Could have been, might have been, probably wasn't.
    You have been around long enough to remember those graphs to, their methodology was.  ..... questionable? and disputed at the time, lots of discussion on this site about them at the time. The 450k figure was from SOE though, and somewhat before the peak.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,420
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
    People will be able to play the trial before purchasing.

    EQ topped out around 500k 13 years ago back when most people still didn't have the internet.
    I remember seeing graphs that showed various game populations. As I remember it Everquest topped out at around 700k. 450k is certainly verifiable.
    700K never happened for EQ1, the got close to 500K

    if there was such a huge demand for EQ1 vanilla game today:

    - P99 wouldn't have around 1200 players at peak, it would be in tens of thousands
    - There would be a at least half a dozen EQ1 "clones" in the works right now

    Neither is happening - you know why?

    Because there isn't 450k players who'd play EQ1 type game today - that's why, people grew up, they have full time jobs and families.

    EQ1 required vast amounts of time to play - this kind of time commitment is simply unmanageable today for players who have families and jobs.
     

    700k? Could have been, might have been, probably wasn't.
    You have been around long enough to remember those graphs to, their methodology was.  ..... questionable? and disputed at the time, lots of discussion on this site about them at the time. The 450k figure was from SOE though, and somewhat before the peak.
    433,000 players at peak, yet EQ (Evercrack) was featured in Time magazine.
    I seriously doubt Pantheon will top EQ in playerbase.
    Not that it has to for it to be a success. Let's just keep things in perspective.
    100 to 200 thousand is a BIG win for this game.
    50,000 to 100,000? still a win.
     You are looking at $9  to $18 million a year in revenue.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • KilrainKilrain Member RarePosts: 1,178
    edited January 2017
    You may be right and Pantheon may be huge (in the West) yet I hardly see nor believe we are in an MMO drought.
    There are plenty of games out and coming out. This is and was always intended to be, a niche genre and the genre is better for that. 



    I consider MMO's being in a drought, at least when it comes to finding what I'm interested in. To me it's like walking into a water store and seeing 10000 bottles of flavored water when all I want is tap water and we have no sink.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,526

    100 to 200 thousand is a BIG win for this game.
    50,000 to 100,000? still a win.
     You are looking at $9  to $18 million a year in revenue.

    Agreed. But it will be a loss of sorts for those who believe that the way forward for MMORPGs is to go backwards.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    I never said that it's "representative of what Pantheon will offer".

    I said that as far as "gameplay style, pace of combat, group centric content etc..." - it's the closest game on the market to what Pantheon gameplay has been shown so far to be like.

    You compared it 3 times to p99 in regard to potential popularity. I'm just clarifying a poorly run emulator of an almost-20 year old game, is not in any way a valid comparison or reasonable metric.


  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 655
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    Then basically you agree with him, because by backing up Kano he's already saying 50k is the likely forecast at this time anyways.

    500k though.... Did Everquest even have that many?  Remember that people have to actually know about the existance of this game and care enough to look at it before they will actually buy it.  How far do you think the game's marketting department will be able to reach?  How many people do you think will look at the name, "Pantheon", and decide to spend money to try it out?  This isn't an F2P or non-subscription B2P game either (unless that changed?) so getting that many people to open up their wallets for it will be all that much harder.
    People will be able to play the trial before purchasing.

    EQ topped out around 500k 13 years ago back when most people still didn't have the internet.
    I remember seeing graphs that showed various game populations. As I remember it Everquest topped out at around 700k. 450k is certainly verifiable.
    700K never happened for EQ1, the got close to 500K

    if there was such a huge demand for EQ1 vanilla game today:

    - P99 wouldn't have around 1200 players at peak, it would be in tens of thousands
    - There would be a at least half a dozen EQ1 "clones" in the works right now

    Neither is happening - you know why?

    Because there isn't 450k players who'd play EQ1 type game today - that's why, people grew up, they have full time jobs and families.

    EQ1 required vast amounts of time to play - this kind of time commitment is simply unmanageable today for a huge number of players who used to play EQ1 17 years ago.

    Priorities change - it's normal. 

    Yep, cause people back when EQ1 was big didn't have jobs either, mmhmm.

    People act like times have changed, that people didn't have jobs then when we all know that's further from the truth.  Did EQ require a lot of time? Hell yes it did but it also was one of the few games that gave players that sense of accomplishment, something that is missing from MMO's for the past many years.

    I think you're wrong with when you comment on about the whole huge demand for EQ1 vanilla game today.  Since so many people put so much stock in graphics, if a game released with similar gameplay aspects as EQ with updated graphics, you'd be extremely surprised just how big of a following it would hold. 

    On a side note, with all due respect Kano, why the hell is every single post of yours, regardless of the topic at hand, always negative? Being negative about everything make you feel good?  I can't say I have ever seen someone so negative on game forums(and I read a lot of different forums) than you.  Every time I see your name in a thread, I can pretty much guaran damn tee its going to be something negative.  Is that your role on these forums?  
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited January 2017
    Mendel said:
    ste2000 said:

    Common sense doesn't include an inflation rate.  Especially not an inflation rate of 800%.  (DMK's number to kitarad's number).  And this is being used for actual numbers, not potential numbers.  Some people are starting to perform calculations with these numbers in an attempt to show revenue.  And that is anticipating 400k or 500k or 1m or 1.2m customers.

    I don't have a problem with projected numbers.  I have a problem with unsubstantiated, unrealistic projected numbers.
    I think you do.
    My "potential" number calculation it's perfectly reasonable, and it is much closer to reality than the 50k number which is just a wishful thinking from people like you who just can't stand this kind of game and desperately wants it to crash and burn.
    I said  this is a "potential" number so many times I lost count, and "potential" doesn't mean "actual".
    It's either you don't understand the difference between potential and actual or you just conveniently decided to ignore it.

    And talking about common sense, I am not the one inflating the numbers, it's people like you deflating the numbers with no data to back that up who are in the wrong.
    I provided "historic" numbers that you can actually check yourself with google, there are no numbers that support a 50k subscription base.
    If 10 Million people went to see Star Wars 1 movie, you expect the same number to see Star Wars 2, you don't project 1 Million viewers just because you hate the saga.
    Does that make sense to you or it is still gibberish?

    And make no mistakes, Pantheon is EQ3, the unofficial successor of one of the biggest MMO IPs, with a combined fan base of well over 50k players.....how can you not understand that's a number that just doesn't make sense.
    Even now EQ + EQ2 have more than 50k subscribers, but there are also plenty of ex EQ players like me eager to play a modern version of Everquest. And what about new players that never played this kind of games, you talk like no one of the new generation will touch this game with a barge pole, which is also unrealistic.

    So don't tell me that you have problem with unsubstantiated, unrealistic projected numbers, when you are backing up a unsubstantiated, unrealistic projected number.
    The only thing that could sink this game is a launch similar to Vanguard, otherwise this game has the "potential" for 400-500k subscribers, which eventually will settle around an "actual" 200-250k, and that's a more realistic number than your 50k.


  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,069
    The problem is that Pantheon isn't that unique, it share the exact same frame as all other diku-MMO and walks into known territory so people won't have the everquest feeling of experiencing it all for the first time. Back in the days Everquest 1 wasn't a cheap game, in todays gaming market Pantheon is made on a shoestring budget and the market is absolutely flooded with games.

    Thankfully Brad have already hinted on how many subscribers the game need and the number they expect and its nowhere near the fantasy numbers we see from fans here. They have spoken of 50k-100k subscribers, I would expect their positive number to be around 150k-200k after the first year.

    For the game to reach its potential subscriber base they would need a much larger budget.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 6,063
    I feel that Brad and his people have a realistic view of their own game . Unfortunately one cannot say the same for their fan base but that is okay, it's okay to be excited about something you like and post about it. Problem is when you start arguing and then it gets ugly and no longer just about hopes and excitement. 

    You know when a baby is born to a Hindu family we always place a black mark on the child's face because of the nasty,jealous Indian dieties who will look down and decide to curse the child with misfortune or illness. So when people come to the house and oooed and ahhed over a new born baby, when my cousin was born my grandmother took salt, chillies and mustard seeds and did some prayers and threw them into a fire. How wonderful to know that your gods are that petty that they cannot even stand a baby's cuteness. Our gods even when you get a boon expect you to suffer in pain as payment.

    So talking too well or crowing about Pantheon is not something I would do personally for I want this game to succeed. Well I certainly hope you have not drawn the ire of some Hindu Diety OP.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,529
    I really dont see how an old school MMO will fly well in 2017 (r whenever this will see the light of day)...Sure there is a niche market for it but will it be big enough to pay the bills?

    I'd like to discuss this,


    - It's been a long time since old school


    - Old school mindset is usually thought as old looking game with old mechanics.


    - People tend to think younger people don't have the time or the brain power to play this style.



    How do you know this style wouldn't start a new rebirth !!!!!!! 
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Yes, sure this game will be huge... *cough*

    As we know, if an MMORPG's fails to reach it's KS funding target, that does not mean that it doesn't have a massive "potential" player base and widespread "potential" support !

    It just means that the hundreds of thousands of "potential" Pantheon players don't yet know the game will exist one day !

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,309
    edited January 2017
    After their recent twitch stream and youtube vids I do hope they got an influx of cash and some support from this large potential player base. I think that might be a good indicator on how many are interested in this type of game. I rather take a wait and see attitude on its success or failure after the game is out instead of this fruitless exercise.

    The youtube vids got about 20 odd thousand views. If indeed there is such a huge market for this type of game shouldn't that number be higher? It costs nothing to watch it on youtube and yet unique views are that low.



    Even a game like Chronicles of Elyria is getting over 50 k views.

    Even taking into account the October and December  differences in posting date the interest in Elyria is way higher than Pantheon. Places like Youtube is a good litmus to test the reception and there is simply not that much interest in Pantheon and this hidden and undiscovered player trove you speak of is simply not there.


     
    If you look back about nine months back the differences even more stark  276 k versus 106 k views. 






    Not trying to get you down OP but try to be realistic about this.


    Post edited by cheyane on
    Chamber of Chains
  • splongsplong Member UncommonPosts: 15
    Huge?  Judging by the last stream...No.
    Can they survive? maybe.

  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,476
    Track record says this game will be no different then any other. I see nothing new.
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
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