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I'll say it again, Pantheon will be huge

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  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,148
    Xodic said:
    It's nice to see all the familiar faces here badgering fans of Pantheon. 
    It's more about having open discourse and cogent conversations about the game and the genre of the game.

    It is for me anyway.
    Yeah, totally. I'm sincere, it's good to see everyone survived new years; how was it? I'm guessing everyone's hangover is cleared enough to get back to forum frolicking.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not. I remember when WoW first came out and among all of the people I knew in several communities, I didn't know a single one who played EQ in it's prime that felt WoW was better.

    EQ offered something very unique that no longer exists. If Pantheon can recreate that, it will be appealing to a whole lot more than just "oldschool" fans. Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us.

    Lol at these estimates when Vanguard sold a quarter of a million boxes in a broken state 10 years ago, and a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that.


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    Bingo!
    The game is being made by a small team on a tiny budget.
    It's quite possible that Pantheon won't even come close to quality of EQ1, nor Vanguard.
    It's quite possible that Pantheon never gets even completed.
    I hope it does - so that people realize that 50k after 6 months was a great prediction, heh
    50K players would still be acceptable, more then enough to keep the game running and updated. But there are more then a few people who really want something like it, I predict 200K as long as it releases in an acceptable shape. And yeah, anything from 25K-1M is possible.

    If it would be Vanguard bad I fear you are too optimistic, then I say 25K.

    And of course, no game in development is safe, even games like Titan and Copernicus got canceled and they had far greater budgets and some really experienced people working on them but worrying about things like that is rather pointless. From what I seen of the game it is rather likely we will be able to play it eventually.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Dullahan said:
    There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not. I remember when WoW first came out, among all of the people I knew, I didn't know a single one who played EQ in it's prime that felt WoW was better.

    EQ offered something very unique that no longer exists. If Pantheon can recreate that, it will be appealing to a whole lot more than just "oldschool" fans. Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us.

    Lol at these estimates when Vanguard sold a quarter of a million boxes in a broken state, and shallow screenshot generators like Black Desert did double that.
    I agree with most of what you say, but the estimates were on active users six months post launch, not box sales. There will be a lot of buy and trys retention is the issue. Tell me what was Vanguard's figure six months post launch?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Dullahan said:
    There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not. I remember when WoW first came out, among all of the people I knew, I didn't know a single one who played EQ in it's prime that felt WoW was better.

    EQ offered something very unique that no longer exists. If Pantheon can recreate that, it will be appealing to a whole lot more than just "oldschool" fans. Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us.

    Lol at these estimates when Vanguard sold a quarter of a million boxes in a broken state, and shallow screenshot generators like Black Desert did double that.
    I agree with most of what you say, but the estimates were on active users six months post launch, not box sales. There will be a lot of buy and trys retention is the issue. Tell me what was Vanguard's figure six months post launch?
    I think everyone knows the answer to that, as well as the reason which is completely irrelevant. Well... irrelevant as long as Pantheon doesn't launch in the same state. :wink:


  • RedsaltRedsalt Member UncommonPosts: 79
    Currently playing EQ again. :)  Hopefully they will deliver on the good and get rid of the bad. I played WoW when it released and it was a good game, but I would agree that I did like EQ better in some ways.

    Redsalt... the other salt.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,134
    Loke666 said:
    DMKano said:
    Bingo!
    The game is being made by a small team on a tiny budget.
    It's quite possible that Pantheon won't even come close to quality of EQ1, nor Vanguard.
    It's quite possible that Pantheon never gets even completed.
    I hope it does - so that people realize that 50k after 6 months was a great prediction, heh
    50K players would still be acceptable, more then enough to keep the game running and updated. But there are more then a few people who really want something like it, I predict 200K as long as it releases in an acceptable shape. And yeah, anything from 25K-1M is possible.

    If it would be Vanguard bad I fear you are too optimistic, then I say 25K.

    And of course, no game in development is safe, even games like Titan and Copernicus got canceled and they had far greater budgets and some really experienced people working on them but worrying about things like that is rather pointless. From what I seen of the game it is rather likely we will be able to play it eventually.
    You think it will be 200k from 6 - 12 months? That seems a bit optimistic. I think on release that's a very reasonable guess.

    I'm sort of using EVE as a compass here as one of the most successful niche mmos in the west. There are only around 35k concurrent users on any given day with estimates of about 100k consistent subs up to 225k consistent subs that make up that concurrent user number. They grew that number over time (and I realize it was higher at a peak time) from a much more modest start.

    The 50k estimate by Kano doesn't seem unreasonable or an insulting slight like Dullahan took it. It could be better than that, but a consistent core of 50k or so doesn't sound that bad to me either as a start.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,419
    Dullahan said:
    There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not. I remember when WoW first came out and among all of the people I knew in several communities, I didn't know a single one who played EQ in it's prime that felt WoW was better.

    EQ offered something very unique that no longer exists. If Pantheon can recreate that, it will be appealing to a whole lot more than just "oldschool" fans. Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us.

    Lol at these estimates when Vanguard sold a quarter of a million boxes in a broken state 10 years ago, and a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that.
    You may be right but it is all 'lol' guessing until launch and see right?

    Albion Online has 200,000 founders so a game like Pantheon I could easily see pulling in that.
    More than that? Tough sell for me. At least over the first year. Yet if they do? Awesome!

    BDO is different and there really is not another game like it on the market so it does make sense that it did well. Plus it is an Eastern game that was able to appeal to both markets. Not sure Pantheon will. (Though it might)

    I was never an EQ player though I spent over a decade in EQ2. I was an AC player and loved the freedom.
    If Project Gorgon had a budget my other two MMO's would probably fall by the wayside lol

    Saying all that I backed Pantheon and look forward to playing it once released. I hope it is everything it's fans want it to be and more.  =)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,319
    DMKano said:
    What ensures that it wont be huge is that its a mmorpg. MMORPGs are not huge anymore. On top of that old school mmorpg - niche within a niche. Yeah - it wont be huge unless you consider 50k players after 6 months "huge".
    I love this comment cause its true but developers (in the east at least) dont seem to get it. The MMORPG market is oversaturated yet the population was never really that big for it to begin with. People talk about WoW hitting a record number of 15~M or whatever at one point, thus becoming the biggest and only MMORPG to do so, but that's just in the MMORPG world. Devs continue to try and split an already small community further. No MMORPG will ever hit WoW's past numbers because there's too many options, not even because the mmorpgs are good/bad/meh.

    What's worse is that players still seem to think success stems from sub numbers, which is completely inaccurate. FFXIV is a prime example. People seem to think that game has a "thriving" community, when it probably has around 300-500k (SE never gives hard numbers, even in the latest census, it said nothing about the actual playerbase, just character information). But why is the game doing so well if not for the subs? The cash shop. SE has updated the cash shop monthly for the past 1.5-2 years, with items that range from 5-35$, most of which are only bound to a single character and not the entire account. Subs don't money doesn't mean much if you have people dropping 50+$ a month + their sub fee, not to mention they allow you to rent space at 2$ each, resulting in people dropping 30$ a month on just staying subbed.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited January 2017
    DMKano said:
    ste2000 said:
    DMKano said:
    What ensures that it wont be huge is that its a mmorpg. MMORPGs are not huge anymore. On top of that old school mmorpg - niche within a niche. Yeah - it wont be huge unless you consider 50k players after 6 months "huge".
    You and your numbers pulled out of thin air again.
    While I believe that the OP is way over optimistic and setting expectations  too high, I really can't take this kind on nonsense.

    If Pantheon quality is going to be shit (AKA Vanguard launch), not even 50k people will play it.
    However, are you telling me that a polished Pantheon, the only real MMORPG with an Old School feel, the MMORPG that EQNext fans turned to, will be less successful than Crowfall, Camelot Unchained or any other MMORPG in development?
    You can't be serious.

    The "potential" Pantheon player base is over 500K, and that's conservative, bigger than any other MMO in production.
    All you have to do it's add EQ and EQ2 current players, EQ and EQ2 ex players (like me), Vanilla WoW fans (few millions), other Old School games orphans......and most importantly, a new generations of players that never played this kind of game and might actually like it.
    You guys seems to outright dismiss this possibility, because you all have families and no time to play this kind of games.
    Guess what, students and young people might have the time to play games like Pantheon.

    So after considering all of that, how can you honestly tell that the best Pantheon can aspire to it's 50k?
    I don't think even you believe your own words. 
    50k 6 months post launch is a good number for a niche game.
    And 2 to 3 times what Wildstar had 6 months after launch (based on NCSoft's financials). A game that had:
    • old school hardcore design;
    • big design budget;
    • "rave reviews by this site!"
    • a marketing budget c. x4 Pantheon's $4M or x2 if its $8M.
    These numbers are not guesses. And there are a decades worth of games to draw on. ( @ste2000 historic numbers don't support your view. And what makes you believe WoW players will be interested!) 

    I hope the devs are pessimistic and hold costs down; plan on maybe 50k. So that if it does end up with 50k (or less) after 6 months it still has a chance. And if it does have 250k after 6 months - so getting on to SWTOR success - things will be really good. Plan for low and if you get high that's a bonus.

    And no I won't be playing and nor am I curious. How Paradox have implemented the Black Death ... in a seriously deep game (so not an mmo) that I am interested in; if only there weren't so many other games and non-game stuff for that matter.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,134
    I wonder if these highroad indie devs for these niche titles (pantheon, camelot unchained, crowfall. albion, shroud, etc) will have the balls to publish their numbers like CCP did for so many years. I am thinking not, but we'll see. I'm sure fanboys will explain away why it's okay for them not to do it even though AAA pubs have been taken to task for it for ages now.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,526
    Dullahan said:
    There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not. I remember when WoW first came out and among all of the people I knew in several communities, I didn't know a single one who played EQ in it's prime that felt WoW was better.

    EQ offered something very unique that no longer exists. If Pantheon can recreate that, it will be appealing to a whole lot more than just "oldschool" fans. Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us.

    Lol at these estimates when Vanguard sold a quarter of a million boxes in a broken state 10 years ago, and a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that.
    God there is just so much wrong with that post I don't really know where to start...

    "There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not."

    Really? A large portion? How have you quantified that? By counting those who agree with your niche perspective and dismissing those who don't as not worth counting? ESO has sold somewhere between 7-10 million boxes. Many of us playing and enjoying it also played AC, UO, EQ... etc. But yeah... we don't count.

    "Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us."

    Wow... See this is the part that makes me start typing when I would rather just to leave you alone with your delusions. That implicit elitist conceit that the reason we're not on board your hype train is because we don't get it.

    "...a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that."

    Just more of the same old dismissive and clueless tripe. You're certainly not shy about dissing BDO or ESO or anything else that you don't like. But the utter lack of insight you display thinking that the numbers a modern AAA game with cutting edge graphics like BDO can pull are somehow relevant to what Pantheon will do simply because in your estimation Pantheon is "better" is beyond delusion.

    Yeah... the masses just don't enjoy games right. We need Pantheon's slow as molasses game play to teach us the error of our ways.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,733
    I really dont see how an old school MMO will fly well in 2017 (r whenever this will see the light of day)...Sure there is a niche market for it but will it be big enough to pay the bills?
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,137
    50K is fail. 

    It is 2017. 
  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,191
    If the game has one full server of like minded players that understand the grouping dynamic, then i'll be happy. There's no need for a huge player base which will never happen anyway.
  • xyzercrimexyzercrime Member RarePosts: 878
    I really dont see how an old school MMO will fly well in 2017 (r whenever this will see the light of day)...Sure there is a niche market for it but will it be big enough to pay the bills?
    Depends on how much the bills are, which supposedly more or less the same like Brad's previous projects like Vanguard and Everquest.



    When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,584
    Is Brad Mcquaid still running the show?
  • RedsaltRedsalt Member UncommonPosts: 79
    I don't know what their expenses would be but 50K subscribers sounds pretty good.


    Redsalt... the other salt.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Iselin said:

    God there is just so much wrong with that post I don't really know where to start...

    "There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not."

    Really? A large portion? How have you quantified that? By counting those who agree with your niche perspective and dismissing those who don't as not worth counting? ESO has sold somewhere between 7-10 million boxes. Many of us playing and enjoying it also played AC, UO, EQ... etc. But yeah... we don't count.

    "Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us."

    Wow... See this is the part that makes me start typing when I would rather just to leave you alone with your delusions. That implicit elitist conceit that the reason we're not on board your hype train is because we don't get it.

    "...a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that."

    Just more of the same old dismissive and clueless tripe. You're certainly not shy about dissing BDO or ESO or anything else that you don't like. But the utter lack of insight you display thinking that the numbers a modern AAA game with cutting edge graphics like BDO can pull are somehow relevant to what Pantheon will do simply because in your estimation Pantheon is "better" is beyond delusion.

    Yeah... the masses just don't enjoy games right. We need Pantheon's slow as molasses game play to teach us the error of our ways.


    There is nothing elitist about it. What I've said is mostly my opinion, as well as observations and facts. Like many things in life, it's something you simply had to experience to understand. There's nothing wrong with having not. I never suggested or even vaguely eluded to that, but those who were not there won't get it even if it were told to them.

    You like to read a lot of stuff into what I said. How about you stop projecting on me and take what I said at face value.

    I've been playing MMOs and reading online game forums for the better part of 20 years. In that time, I've read a lot of comments and had a lot of discussions on the virtues of older game design versus what we have today. In that time, it has been the rare exception to find someone who played EQ early on that did not want to play another game like it.

    Why do I have to have a statistic to make an observation? I guess my observations really make you upset. You don't have to get angry with someone who doesn't share your perspective. Your hostility is unwarranted.


  • RegnorRegnor Member UncommonPosts: 108

    And I'll say it again. Pantheon is so 1990's. Forced group play by the guy who called his customers "Bottom feeders" and came up with the egregiously naïve and ultimately unenforceable "Play Nice" policy. After he abandoned his Vanguard development team, no one ever expected anyone to give him any money to make a game again. And then crowd sourcing came  along. PT Barnum is laughing in his grave.

    The only aspect of Pantheon that will be huge is the disappointment, the mistakes and, ultimately, the failure.

    Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 366
    Xatsh said:
    Game will not be huge but will have a large following. If it is really good probably will have a surprisingly larger following then expected and I expect the player base to be stable over many years and not have the rapid ups and downs of a modern themepark.

    The problem is most people in this genre want a game they can jump into after work play for a few hours and be top tier endgame in a few weeks. The majority want fast paced twitch games. The majority want solo focused with the option to group. The majority want grinding removed completely. The majority want f2p games. Most people do not want to be forced to socialize to progress. Most people do not want actual mmos....

    So no this will not be huge, but then again it does not have to be to be great successful either. Just needs a strong enough playerbase to last for years and support high quality content being developed.
    I agree with this, and to take it one step further, I think the game will be better for it.  Pantheon is supposed to be all about community.  It harkens back to a time when everyone knew who their server's "class clown" was; a time when roleplayers weren't strange to see; and a time when large friend lists meant something.  People simply don't want that anymore.  The new way certainly isn't wrong, but it isn't Pantheon's way.  Dying 3 times and deleveling after taking a week to get level 10 just because you attempted to make it to another capital without a high level escort isn't most peoples' cup of tea these days.  I suspect that many players will try it and discover that this type of game is exactly what they've been missing.  However, many will also see it as outdated and purposefully punishing completely missing the point of Pantheon.  The best it can hope for is to start small and grow steadily over time.  Let the game evolve with the players for a change instead of the other way around.


  • RegnorRegnor Member UncommonPosts: 108

    Dullahan said:
    I've been playing MMOs and reading online game forums for the better part of 20 years. In that time, I've read a lot of comments and had a lot of discussions on the virtues of older game design versus what we have today. In that time, it has been the rare exception to find someone who played EQ early on that did not want to play another game like it.

    Why do I have to have a statistic to make an observation? I guess my observations really make you upset. You don't have to get angry with someone who doesn't share your perspective. Your hostility is unwarranted.


    That's probably because you only listen to those who have that viewpoint. I was in Phase One Beta of EQ and played it to death, so I know the game and loved it in it's time. And in that time, it was king of the hill primarily because it was one of the few and first games in town. People bitched about the forced grouping, about the lost experience, about kill-stealing, and all the other things that seem silly today but were just part of the landscape at that time. And for a game called EverQUEST, it had the crappiest quest system ever devised. No, it is not the "rare exception" that does not want to play another game like that. It is the majority of the market speaking, and they have spoken, many times over.

    The world is filled with people who want to re-live their past, only to discover that you can't re-live the past. Progress happens and context changes. A large part of what made EQ so memorable was its novelty, the epic adventures lived out for the first time in a game (who can forget the trek from Qeynos to Freeport)? Things just aren't as rosy as your memory draws them.

    The world has moved on to better things, for a reason.

    Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Regnor said:

    Dullahan said:
    I've been playing MMOs and reading online game forums for the better part of 20 years. In that time, I've read a lot of comments and had a lot of discussions on the virtues of older game design versus what we have today. In that time, it has been the rare exception to find someone who played EQ early on that did not want to play another game like it.

    Why do I have to have a statistic to make an observation? I guess my observations really make you upset. You don't have to get angry with someone who doesn't share your perspective. Your hostility is unwarranted.


    That's probably because you only listen to those who have that viewpoint. I was in Phase One Beta of EQ and played it to death, so I know the game and loved it in it's time. And in that time, it was king of the hill primarily because it was one of the few and first games in town. People bitched about the forced grouping, about the lost experience, about kill-stealing, and all the other things that seem silly today but were just part of the landscape at that time. ... Things just aren't as rosy as your memory draws them.

    The world has moved on to better things, for a reason.

    I also played from test, and for many years after that. I don't recall much complaining over those issues. That sentiment was the exception, because making those complaints is like going to the beach during the summer and whining about the heat. Not saying they didn't occur, only that you exaggerate the severity or the perception of people in general. The fact that EQ sported a 65% retention rate in the early years, even after half a dozen other MMOs came out, reveals the contrarian nature of people.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182


    As Kano said earlier Pantheon is going to be a niche within a niche. Hard content, forced grouping, etc.etc.etc... Is an extreme niche as far as long term play goes. Take something like Dark Souls as an example. it sells well initially. Yet also has a huge percentage of people who simply cannot stick it out. Or won't stick it out to completion. That's a single player title though so the box fee is all that matters, quitters have no impact on success.. 

    I also think it's a tad bit odd to expect the eq crowd to carry this title forward, at least to any form of massive success. Simply because most were younger and had far less real life responsibility in those days, which is the only reason they were able to put that kind of time and energy into an MMORPG like EQ ( requiring tons of hours of free time).

    They'll need a good portion of younger players who are always on to give those people the same type of grouping experience they were used to in EQ. Which is why those with little time could get by back in those days. The younger 18-to-20 something crowd was what carried the experience in those older games. Who has the life where they can put in 15 hours into a game on a day to day basis, other than those people? I don't think they can get by on the retired and disabled.

    This is the biggest issue I see with pantheon. If they don't get that younger crowd (which I've yet to see any push toward them).. It will be a ghost town most times of the day, aside from Primetime entertainment hours (7-10 pm) or so.. Not a good place to be for an MMORPG.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,134
    Dullahan said:
    Iselin said:

    God there is just so much wrong with that post I don't really know where to start...

    "There are a lot of people who played EQ seriously. While some have found new MMOs enjoyable, a large portion of them have not."

    Really? A large portion? How have you quantified that? By counting those who agree with your niche perspective and dismissing those who don't as not worth counting? ESO has sold somewhere between 7-10 million boxes. Many of us playing and enjoying it also played AC, UO, EQ... etc. But yeah... we don't count.

    "Some of you won't get that, but it's completely obvious to the rest of us."

    Wow... See this is the part that makes me start typing when I would rather just to leave you alone with your delusions. That implicit elitist conceit that the reason we're not on board your hype train is because we don't get it.

    "...a shallow screenshot engine with a focus on PvP (PvE demo is much larger) like Black Desert did double that."

    Just more of the same old dismissive and clueless tripe. You're certainly not shy about dissing BDO or ESO or anything else that you don't like. But the utter lack of insight you display thinking that the numbers a modern AAA game with cutting edge graphics like BDO can pull are somehow relevant to what Pantheon will do simply because in your estimation Pantheon is "better" is beyond delusion.

    Yeah... the masses just don't enjoy games right. We need Pantheon's slow as molasses game play to teach us the error of our ways.
    There is nothing elitist about it. What I've said is mostly my opinion, as well as observations and facts. Like many things in life, it's something you simply had to experience to understand. There's nothing wrong with having not. I never suggested or even vaguely eluded to that, but those who were not there won't get it even if it were told to them.

    You like to read a lot of stuff into what I said. How about you stop projecting on me and take what I said at face value.

    I've been playing MMOs and reading online game forums for the better part of 20 years. In that time, I've read a lot of comments and had a lot of discussions on the virtues of older game design versus what we have today. In that time, it has been the rare exception to find someone who played EQ early on that did not want to play another game like it.

    Why do I have to have a statistic to make an observation? I guess my observations really make you upset. You don't have to get angry with someone who doesn't share your perspective. Your hostility is unwarranted.
    PRO-TIP: People want to play games like it because it's evolved from DikuMUD. Tons of games are DikuMUD children, spin-offs, etc. and EQ didn't invent that. Lineage is a DikuMUD type of game and it was around before EQ and is still a huge player base. 

    Gamers who like diku and d&d types of games are attracted to EQ, but that's not the only admirable title in the stable.

    It's like saying Diablo 1 is the only arpg and they should all be made like that. If you don't agree then you just don't get it. It's an opinion. A silly opinion and wrong like your opinion is, regardless of your appeal to twenty years of experience and authority.

    Maybe if you didn't take pot shots and make snarky comments at every other game on the forum then you wouldn't get prickly reactions. Are you that worried about Pantheon that you have to elevate it by putting other games down?
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


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