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I'll say it again, Pantheon will be huge

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,140
    I supported The Repopulation with $500 and I supported Pathfinder with $100 and both failed to come to fruition. I'm not sure if they are both completely dead, but I honestly don't feel a loss in my investment one bit. I want games like this and I'm not afraid to help an indie developer achieve success by being different instead of cloning the same shit out there that every AAA company thinks how to achieve a WoW success story. If you want to succeed like WoW, you don't copy them. All that does is forces you to take a slice of their pie. I would rather make my own pie and eat it too.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,140
    Nanfoodle said:
    People stuck on Pantheon being modeled off an 18 year old game, so its stuck in the past. Has not been reading much about this MMO. Its going back to Sandbox questing at its roots and real exploring. Old school class interdependency but beyond that. They have some very modern concepts. Even EQ1 fans will have lots to learn to be able to master adventuring in Pantheon.

    Here read the FAQ 
    Well, the core mechanics from EQ actually ARE the prominent features being talked about the most. Such as a wide range of races and classes. Classes being more focused and interdependent of each other. Group content outside of dungeon raids. A more serious death mechanic. A dangerous world.

    Yeah, it certainly does remind me a lot of vanilla EQ. No one is saying it's an EQ clone, but it's definitely it's spiritual successor.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,607
    edited February 2017
    Rhoklaw said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    People stuck on Pantheon being modeled off an 18 year old game, so its stuck in the past. Has not been reading much about this MMO. Its going back to Sandbox questing at its roots and real exploring. Old school class interdependency but beyond that. They have some very modern concepts. Even EQ1 fans will have lots to learn to be able to master adventuring in Pantheon.

    Here read the FAQ 
    Well, the core mechanics from EQ actually ARE the prominent features being talked about the most. Such as a wide range of races and classes. Classes being more focused and interdependent of each other. Group content outside of dungeon raids. A more serious death mechanic. A dangerous world.

    Yeah, it certainly does remind me a lot of vanilla EQ. No one is saying it's an EQ clone, but it's definitely it's spiritual successor.
    My post went over your head. My point was as much as they have taken for core values from EQ1, there is still many aspects of the game that they have modernized. Some things not done in any other MMO. This is not an 18 year old game with a new skin as many here in this thread are claiming. 

    FROM THE PANTHEON FAQ:

    It sounds like Pantheon is bringing back a lot of ‘older’ MMO game mechanics. Is Pantheon a clone of older games or a modern MMO?

    Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO, with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these ‘older’ mechanics and ideas, but always with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions, and with an understanding that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involve inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose what makes sense and what is needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.


    What will Pantheon feature that is new and different?

    Please check out The Pantheon Difference.

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    danwest58 said:
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

     I not sure if you played early EQ or not but the death penalty sounds a lot worse than it really was.
    If you had a wipe in raid, as the zone was cleared up to where you died, you just has a cleric run back in and res everyone. It didn't take that long.
     Another option was if at least one cleric could get a res spell off on another res able player and they could just wait till everyone was dead and the mobs left and then accept the res. 
     What it did do is make you be more careful especially when alone. You could not just run into a dungeon or raid zone solo just to be doing it without risking death and a difficult corpse recovery. At least most classes could not. Even then it was not difficult to find a necromancer to summon your corpse to the zone entrance.
     The experience loss with a res was never that noticeable. Without a res, you could tell that you died. It was never that hard to find a cleric to res you. Unless you had just leveled, you never were in danger of losing a level.  
     I not sure what this game will do for a death penalty. But even if they go with an early EQ style death penalty, I am sure they have a way for you to at least recovery you equipment if you can't recovery your corpse.
     I don't see the death penalty being more harsh than early EQ and if so I don't understand the worry. 
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

     I not sure if you played early EQ or not but the death penalty sounds a lot worse than it really was.
    If you had a wipe in raid, as the zone was cleared up to where you died, you just has a cleric run back in and res everyone. It didn't take that long.
     Another option was if at least one cleric could get a res spell off on another res able player and they could just wait till everyone was dead and the mobs left and then accept the res. 
     What it did do is make you be more careful especially when alone. You could not just run into a dungeon or raid zone solo just to be doing it without risking death and a difficult corpse recovery. At least most classes could not. Even then it was not difficult to find a necromancer to summon your corpse to the zone entrance.
     The experience loss with a res was never that noticeable. Without a res, you could tell that you died. It was never that hard to find a cleric to res you. Unless you had just leveled, you never were in danger of losing a level.  
     I not sure what this game will do for a death penalty. But even if they go with an early EQ style death penalty, I am sure they have a way for you to at least recovery you equipment if you can't recovery your corpse.
     I don't see the death penalty being more harsh than early EQ and if so I don't understand the worry. 
    I didnt play EQ2, i did play FFXI though which I can tell you from experience that losing EXP when I died was a bitch, there were times we had people that sucked so bad people lost several levels and that pissed people off.  Often made them quit.   If they did that with WOW raiding people would have stopped raiding.  

    My personal feeling is if there is a way to res the group without them dying again and EXP loss was 1% or 2% thats one thing.  I have heard of people from EQ2 that came to Vanilla WOW raiding that hated having too many people lose EXP that they had to disband the raid for a week or more until people got back up to level.  Thats why when they got to WOW they stayed in WOW.  Now Yes Death has to hurt, but I think there are better ways of doing that.  Expensive repair bills in early WOW was one where our group didnt try Rag because our tanks didnt have 250 Fire Resist and people didnt want repair bills.  
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    danwest58 said:
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

     I not sure if you played early EQ or not but the death penalty sounds a lot worse than it really was.
    If you had a wipe in raid, as the zone was cleared up to where you died, you just has a cleric run back in and res everyone. It didn't take that long.
     Another option was if at least one cleric could get a res spell off on another res able player and they could just wait till everyone was dead and the mobs left and then accept the res. 
     What it did do is make you be more careful especially when alone. You could not just run into a dungeon or raid zone solo just to be doing it without risking death and a difficult corpse recovery. At least most classes could not. Even then it was not difficult to find a necromancer to summon your corpse to the zone entrance.
     The experience loss with a res was never that noticeable. Without a res, you could tell that you died. It was never that hard to find a cleric to res you. Unless you had just leveled, you never were in danger of losing a level.  
     I not sure what this game will do for a death penalty. But even if they go with an early EQ style death penalty, I am sure they have a way for you to at least recovery you equipment if you can't recovery your corpse.
     I don't see the death penalty being more harsh than early EQ and if so I don't understand the worry. 
    I didnt play EQ2, i did play FFXI though which I can tell you from experience that losing EXP when I died was a bitch, there were times we had people that sucked so bad people lost several levels and that pissed people off.  Often made them quit.   If they did that with WOW raiding people would have stopped raiding.  

    My personal feeling is if there is a way to res the group without them dying again and EXP loss was 1% or 2% thats one thing.  I have heard of people from EQ2 that came to Vanilla WOW raiding that hated having too many people lose EXP that they had to disband the raid for a week or more until people got back up to level.  Thats why when they got to WOW they stayed in WOW.  Now Yes Death has to hurt, but I think there are better ways of doing that.  Expensive repair bills in early WOW was one where our group didnt try Rag because our tanks didnt have 250 Fire Resist and people didnt want repair bills.  
    EQ2 was nothing like EQ1, death penalty and everything else. I know I played both. So don't even try and assume any EQ2 thing applies to early EQ1. I never remember dying and losing a level every being a problem on any raid I was on in EQ except for once when we were in a level 50 raid and someone leveled to 50 the night before the raid. They had to go out and kill a few mobs before they could back in.  I guess it encourage us to play well and not die a lot. It probably did encourage you to find a good guild and not to do pugs. I think on a cleric res you got back 96 or 97% of your experience which you gained back in the next pull or two. I guess if you died 40 or more times then this might be an issue but if you are dying that much then maybe you should leave the raid and figure out what was going wrong before you go back.
    I never played FFXI so no clue how they did the death thing.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The death penalty really wasn't that bad in EQ. Also to  note, like classic EQ, Pantheon is not a raid-focused game. It's a group focused game with some raiding content. For that content to be important, it will have to be harder and have more time constraints. If that means once in a while people will have to go back out and gain back some lost experience to get back to peak efficiency for raiding, so be it.

    In EQ, if you died on a raid, you almost always were able to get resurrected. Even if you died in a level locked area, a res would get you back inside the zone, regardless of your level. In other words, not that big of a deal.


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

     I not sure if you played early EQ or not but the death penalty sounds a lot worse than it really was.
    If you had a wipe in raid, as the zone was cleared up to where you died, you just has a cleric run back in and res everyone. It didn't take that long.
     Another option was if at least one cleric could get a res spell off on another res able player and they could just wait till everyone was dead and the mobs left and then accept the res. 
     What it did do is make you be more careful especially when alone. You could not just run into a dungeon or raid zone solo just to be doing it without risking death and a difficult corpse recovery. At least most classes could not. Even then it was not difficult to find a necromancer to summon your corpse to the zone entrance.
     The experience loss with a res was never that noticeable. Without a res, you could tell that you died. It was never that hard to find a cleric to res you. Unless you had just leveled, you never were in danger of losing a level.  
     I not sure what this game will do for a death penalty. But even if they go with an early EQ style death penalty, I am sure they have a way for you to at least recovery you equipment if you can't recovery your corpse.
     I don't see the death penalty being more harsh than early EQ and if so I don't understand the worry. 
    I didnt play EQ2, i did play FFXI though which I can tell you from experience that losing EXP when I died was a bitch, there were times we had people that sucked so bad people lost several levels and that pissed people off.  Often made them quit.   If they did that with WOW raiding people would have stopped raiding.  

    My personal feeling is if there is a way to res the group without them dying again and EXP loss was 1% or 2% thats one thing.  I have heard of people from EQ2 that came to Vanilla WOW raiding that hated having too many people lose EXP that they had to disband the raid for a week or more until people got back up to level.  Thats why when they got to WOW they stayed in WOW.  Now Yes Death has to hurt, but I think there are better ways of doing that.  Expensive repair bills in early WOW was one where our group didnt try Rag because our tanks didnt have 250 Fire Resist and people didnt want repair bills.  
    EQ2 was nothing like EQ1, death penalty and everything else. I know I played both. So don't even try and assume any EQ2 thing applies to early EQ1. I never remember dying and losing a level every being a problem on any raid I was on in EQ except for once when we were in a level 50 raid and someone leveled to 50 the night before the raid. They had to go out and kill a few mobs before they could back in.  I guess it encourage us to play well and not die a lot. It probably did encourage you to find a good guild and not to do pugs. I think on a cleric res you got back 96 or 97% of your experience which you gained back in the next pull or two. I guess if you died 40 or more times then this might be an issue but if you are dying that much then maybe you should leave the raid and figure out what was going wrong before you go back.
    I never played FFXI so no clue how they did the death thing.
    FFXI was a bitch some nights you couldnt find a group and you had to be in a group all times past level 10.  I had 1 really bad group one time and lost 3 levels and quit playing.  I did go to WOW though lol.  

    My experience losing experience is a bad thing.  If it was in WOW I could see no one raiding because some bosses took 5 to 6 weeks to learn.  Just look at the first boss in BWL.   
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    danwest58 said:
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    Mylan12 said:
    danwest58 said:
    The game looks good.  It's one I keep my eye on.  I do not think this will be a WOW killer, however it could be a formal changer game.  If the Formal points to more group focused content without any automated group finder tools you could see the MMO Genera get back the core pillar that MMOs are about and that is the Social aspect.  

    I just wish Pantheon didn't focus on what I consider bad death mechanics.  I would prefer Dark n Light death mechanics because you just have a stock pile of weapons and armor in your bank or storage vs loosening Experience which my opinion is that it is stupid.  It would take you hours to grind back up to max level if you die which could cause you to lose your raid spot.  That is just stupid as all hell.  A game focused on raiding even open world raiding cannot have harsh death penalties.  This is why Vanilla WOW was so successful because Death was not harsh and you could just get back up and try to kill a tough boss again.  You still didnt want to die because it took 10 minutes or so to get everyone rezzed in a 40 man raid.  It didnt cost players their raid spot.  Where WOW failed is they trying to make the game for the 15 a minute a week gamer and fucked their entire product.  Hell even today people are leaving WOW in droves.  

     I not sure if you played early EQ or not but the death penalty sounds a lot worse than it really was.
    If you had a wipe in raid, as the zone was cleared up to where you died, you just has a cleric run back in and res everyone. It didn't take that long.
     Another option was if at least one cleric could get a res spell off on another res able player and they could just wait till everyone was dead and the mobs left and then accept the res. 
     What it did do is make you be more careful especially when alone. You could not just run into a dungeon or raid zone solo just to be doing it without risking death and a difficult corpse recovery. At least most classes could not. Even then it was not difficult to find a necromancer to summon your corpse to the zone entrance.
     The experience loss with a res was never that noticeable. Without a res, you could tell that you died. It was never that hard to find a cleric to res you. Unless you had just leveled, you never were in danger of losing a level.  
     I not sure what this game will do for a death penalty. But even if they go with an early EQ style death penalty, I am sure they have a way for you to at least recovery you equipment if you can't recovery your corpse.
     I don't see the death penalty being more harsh than early EQ and if so I don't understand the worry. 
    I didnt play EQ2, i did play FFXI though which I can tell you from experience that losing EXP when I died was a bitch, there were times we had people that sucked so bad people lost several levels and that pissed people off.  Often made them quit.   If they did that with WOW raiding people would have stopped raiding.  

    My personal feeling is if there is a way to res the group without them dying again and EXP loss was 1% or 2% thats one thing.  I have heard of people from EQ2 that came to Vanilla WOW raiding that hated having too many people lose EXP that they had to disband the raid for a week or more until people got back up to level.  Thats why when they got to WOW they stayed in WOW.  Now Yes Death has to hurt, but I think there are better ways of doing that.  Expensive repair bills in early WOW was one where our group didnt try Rag because our tanks didnt have 250 Fire Resist and people didnt want repair bills.  
    EQ2 was nothing like EQ1, death penalty and everything else. I know I played both. So don't even try and assume any EQ2 thing applies to early EQ1. I never remember dying and losing a level every being a problem on any raid I was on in EQ except for once when we were in a level 50 raid and someone leveled to 50 the night before the raid. They had to go out and kill a few mobs before they could back in.  I guess it encourage us to play well and not die a lot. It probably did encourage you to find a good guild and not to do pugs. I think on a cleric res you got back 96 or 97% of your experience which you gained back in the next pull or two. I guess if you died 40 or more times then this might be an issue but if you are dying that much then maybe you should leave the raid and figure out what was going wrong before you go back.
    I never played FFXI so no clue how they did the death thing.
    FFXI was a bitch some nights you couldnt find a group and you had to be in a group all times past level 10.  I had 1 really bad group one time and lost 3 levels and quit playing.  I did go to WOW though lol.  

    My experience losing experience is a bad thing.  If it was in WOW I could see no one raiding because some bosses took 5 to 6 weeks to learn.  Just look at the first boss in BWL.   
    It took weeks to learn some raids in EQ especially if you were one of the earlier raiders. You just looked for a good guild and/or group with nice people and joined it.
    Actually I only grouped with people in EQ that I knew and that actually knew how to play the game.
    I did the same in DAoC and LOTRO.  Well EQ2, I played it some but didn't raid. I found in it most content you could do with a duo even group content.  Most of the other MMORPGs that I played are solo ones so I never had to group in them.

     Reputation was important in early EQ, if you were a bad player and got people killed doing stupid things then word got out. 

     Maybe the difference is that games like EQ1 encourage a more static type group and not PUGs. If the group is more static or limited to at least a guild, then you make friends, socialize more and if needed help others to become better players.

     I never liked WoW, never played past the beta.

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Dullahan said:
    The death penalty really wasn't that bad in EQ. Also to  note, like classic EQ, Pantheon is not a raid-focused game. It's a group focused game with some raiding content. For that content to be important, it will have to be harder and have more time constraints. If that means once in a while people will have to go back out and gain back some lost experience to get back to peak efficiency for raiding, so be it.

    In EQ, if you died on a raid, you almost always were able to get resurrected. Even if you died in a level locked area, a res would get you back inside the zone, regardless of your level. In other words, not that big of a deal.
    Yeah guess they fixed that but early on, we ran into an instance where someone lost a level and we could not res them back in. Never had that problem come up again but glad they fixed it. Maybe it was a bug like the time they made bards super agro. The developers claimed they misplace a decimal point or so they told me.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,986
    Dullahan said:
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.
    I don't think it should punish risk taking though, but it definitely shouldn't reward failure. The one drawback to severe penalties for failure (death, wipes, etc) is that people tend to play it much closer to safe.

    I like the idea of setbacks to progression through the content to the goal. For example, say there is a raid that requires a few stages and time to work through. If a group fails a raid (wipes) say 5 times the "boss" would kick them back to earlier points requiring the group to work back through the last few legs of the tough content. If they can't get past it then they need to go  back out into the world and grow and improve some more. The focus is more on the group improving what they're doing wrong at the point they struggle than just punishing for the sake of it.

    I don't mind making failure uncomfortable with a motivation to avoid, but I hate when it just promotes safe play behavior.
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  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.
    I don't think it should punish risk taking though, but it definitely shouldn't reward failure. The one drawback to severe penalties for failure (death, wipes, etc) is that people tend to play it much closer to safe.

    I like the idea of setbacks to progression through the content to the goal. For example, say there is a raid that requires a few stages and time to work through. If a group fails a raid (wipes) say 5 times the "boss" would kick them back to earlier points requiring the group to work back through the last few legs of the tough content. If they can't get past it then they need to go  back out into the world and grow and improve some more. The focus is more on the group improving what they're doing wrong at the point they struggle than just punishing for the sake of it.

    I don't mind making failure uncomfortable with a motivation to avoid, but I hate when it just promotes safe play behavior.
    I not sure I understand what you mean by safe play behavior. Most group instances and raids in games I played, you either try to do them or don't.  Do you mean people don't do raids because of the cost of failures?

    The wipes and deaths in early EQ never stopped us from doing raids or hard content. I doubt this game is going to have a more severe penalty than early EQ. Did you raid in early EQ? I think people that didn't play in early EQ somehow think the penalty was much worse than it was. The only problem was the risk of losing your equipment if something happen to your internet and you could not get online for days. They changed that later in EQ and I am sure this game will not have that issue. Other than that one issue, the death penalty in early EQ was no big deal. Heck when we were first breaking into the Plane of Air in EQ, we had lots of wipes as no one knew what was coming next. I don't remember even noticing much loss in my experience bar and and recovery didn't take that long. It sure made us learn and do better the next attempt at that boss.
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Yeah, I disagree, sorry. Not that it's a bad game but that it has alot to prove, and beta is NOT the time it will do it. 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,986
    Mylan12 said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.
    I don't think it should punish risk taking though, but it definitely shouldn't reward failure. The one drawback to severe penalties for failure (death, wipes, etc) is that people tend to play it much closer to safe.

    I like the idea of setbacks to progression through the content to the goal. For example, say there is a raid that requires a few stages and time to work through. If a group fails a raid (wipes) say 5 times the "boss" would kick them back to earlier points requiring the group to work back through the last few legs of the tough content. If they can't get past it then they need to go  back out into the world and grow and improve some more. The focus is more on the group improving what they're doing wrong at the point they struggle than just punishing for the sake of it.

    I don't mind making failure uncomfortable with a motivation to avoid, but I hate when it just promotes safe play behavior.
    I not sure I understand what you mean by safe play behavior. Most group instances and raids in games I played, you either try to do them or don't.  Do you mean people don't do raids because of the cost of failures?

    The wipes and deaths in early EQ never stopped us from doing raids or hard content. I doubt this game is going to have a more severe penalty than early EQ. Did you raid in early EQ? I think people that didn't play in early EQ somehow think the penalty was much worse than it was. The only problem was the risk of losing your equipment if something happen to your internet and you could not get online for days. They changed that later in EQ and I am sure this game will not have that issue. Other than that one issue, the death penalty in early EQ was no big deal. Heck when we were first breaking into the Plane of Air in EQ, we had lots of wipes as no one knew what was coming next. I don't remember even noticing much loss in my experience bar and and recovery didn't take that long. It sure made us learn and do better the next attempt at that boss.
    I played Lineage not EQ and it had an amazing brutal death penalty that included dropping random gear and xp loss. The xp curve was brutal and a single death could set a high level player back weeks. A gear drop could cost tens of millions of [gold] if there was even a readily available replacement.

    Maybe the DP in EQ wasn't has harsh as people described, but in other games it was. Having too harsh of death penalties translates into safe play behavior.

    So in light of the discussion for those requesting incredibly harsh penalties just for defeat.
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  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Torval said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.
    I don't think it should punish risk taking though, but it definitely shouldn't reward failure. The one drawback to severe penalties for failure (death, wipes, etc) is that people tend to play it much closer to safe.

    I like the idea of setbacks to progression through the content to the goal. For example, say there is a raid that requires a few stages and time to work through. If a group fails a raid (wipes) say 5 times the "boss" would kick them back to earlier points requiring the group to work back through the last few legs of the tough content. If they can't get past it then they need to go  back out into the world and grow and improve some more. The focus is more on the group improving what they're doing wrong at the point they struggle than just punishing for the sake of it.

    I don't mind making failure uncomfortable with a motivation to avoid, but I hate when it just promotes safe play behavior.
    I not sure I understand what you mean by safe play behavior. Most group instances and raids in games I played, you either try to do them or don't.  Do you mean people don't do raids because of the cost of failures?

    The wipes and deaths in early EQ never stopped us from doing raids or hard content. I doubt this game is going to have a more severe penalty than early EQ. Did you raid in early EQ? I think people that didn't play in early EQ somehow think the penalty was much worse than it was. The only problem was the risk of losing your equipment if something happen to your internet and you could not get online for days. They changed that later in EQ and I am sure this game will not have that issue. Other than that one issue, the death penalty in early EQ was no big deal. Heck when we were first breaking into the Plane of Air in EQ, we had lots of wipes as no one knew what was coming next. I don't remember even noticing much loss in my experience bar and and recovery didn't take that long. It sure made us learn and do better the next attempt at that boss.
    I played Lineage not EQ and it had an amazing brutal death penalty that included dropping random gear and xp loss. The xp curve was brutal and a single death could set a high level player back weeks. A gear drop could cost tens of millions of [gold] if there was even a readily available replacement.

    Maybe the DP in EQ wasn't has harsh as people described, but in other games it was. Having too harsh of death penalties translates into safe play behavior.

    So in light of the discussion for those requesting incredibly harsh penalties just for defeat.
    I tried Lineage. The experience grind seem way over board to me. I never could get into it so didn't play long.
     
    In UO you dropped all your equipment and someone else would get it before you could get back. In that game you just used disposable equipment and never carried anything that you didn't want to lose. I don't want to see that type death penalty in this game but the EQ style would be fine. I would not want to see the lineage one either.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,673
    For the most part I did not mind a death penalty...it made me much more aware and played with alot more caution....On the other hand, I died in a zone that very few people ever went to and couldnt get a rez for weeks so I ended up deleting the character and quit.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    For the most part I did not mind a death penalty...it made me much more aware and played with alot more caution....On the other hand, I died in a zone that very few people ever went to and couldnt get a rez for weeks so I ended up deleting the character and quit.
    Wow not a nice community in that game. In most of the games I played in, I had strangers even travel fairly long distances and res me if needed. And if I didn't want to wait for that you could release and take the extra exp loss and carefully go back and get your corpse. Now if you ran into a raid zone solo and died, that is a different issue.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    I'm not big on level locked zones, but I honestly have no problem with it kicking you out and not letting you back in if you lose your level. It's something the player knows going in, so it should be up to the player to take the appropriate steps to avoid that situation. I personally want a world that doesn't hold your hand, and expects you to make intelligent decisions.
    I don't think it should punish risk taking though, but it definitely shouldn't reward failure. The one drawback to severe penalties for failure (death, wipes, etc) is that people tend to play it much closer to safe.

    I like the idea of setbacks to progression through the content to the goal. For example, say there is a raid that requires a few stages and time to work through. If a group fails a raid (wipes) say 5 times the "boss" would kick them back to earlier points requiring the group to work back through the last few legs of the tough content. If they can't get past it then they need to go  back out into the world and grow and improve some more. The focus is more on the group improving what they're doing wrong at the point they struggle than just punishing for the sake of it.

    I don't mind making failure uncomfortable with a motivation to avoid, but I hate when it just promotes safe play behavior.
    There's a balance there to be found, but there's something to be said of the intrigue and sense of mystery instilled by danger and steeper penalties.

    For instance, on EQ in the early years, there were quite a few places and things that I never saw or was able to do. It just wasn't something I had the time for, or the ability to achieve. I don't think I ever even saw the entrance to Veeshan's Peak until years later, because running through Skyfire mountains was very dangerous for most players. But that was cool, because it sat there in the back of my mind as a way to keep me interested and striving to explore deeper and play more.

    Had there never been that penalty, and had there never been that danger, I would have quickly uncovered all that there was, and moved on.


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Rhoklaw said:
    I supported The Repopulation with $500 and I supported Pathfinder with $100 and both failed to come to fruition. I'm not sure if they are both completely dead, but I honestly don't feel a loss in my investment one bit. I want games like this and I'm not afraid to help an indie developer achieve success by being different instead of cloning the same shit out there that every AAA company thinks how to achieve a WoW success story. If you want to succeed like WoW, you don't copy them. All that does is forces you to take a slice of their pie. I would rather make my own pie and eat it too.
    Not an investment, nothing like an investment. Something like a preorder but really:

    IT IS A   D O N A T I O N

    and you don't lose a donation, you jusr get disappointed in the outcome if it fails.
  • skadadskadad Member UncommonPosts: 392
    Mylan12 said:
    For the most part I did not mind a death penalty...it made me much more aware and played with alot more caution....On the other hand, I died in a zone that very few people ever went to and couldnt get a rez for weeks so I ended up deleting the character and quit.
    Wow not a nice community in that game. In most of the games I played in, I had strangers even travel fairly long distances and res me if needed. And if I didn't want to wait for that you could release and take the extra exp loss and carefully go back and get your corpse. Now if you ran into a raid zone solo and died, that is a different issue.
    There was usually never a problem getting a ress in eq, if you were willing to wait and not demand it instantly. Talk to people, make friends, have a reputation. Communiy in old eq was the best I have ever seen in a mmo to date, closely followed by old daoc/ao etc.
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