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I'll say it again, Pantheon will be huge

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  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Perhaps it is time to try something else and see if you can get a different result.
    You do not see the irony in your post, do you...?
    Guess you are talking about the fact that some of these concepts and mechanics have been done before in the past?

    Thats fine but nothing like this has been tried lately. Ive been looking for a while for a MMO with more oldschool mechanics for years now and havent found any but some new ones in development. As near as I can tell the only ones trying to do it right are Project Gorgon (really more for the AC crowd), SoL (everything takes a bit too long in that one for my taste), and Pantheon. Can you show me any other modern MMO that has features like these?

    So I wouldnt get ahead of myself with the irony jab if I were you. Because for years all I have seen are different face lifts of WoW, and Korean grinders, and a bunch of F2P garbage meant only for making a profit. With a few passable attempts at an okay MMO here and there. Then there is the recent Sandbox PvP rush. Hollow, vacant, and as meanigless as they possibly can be. And I like PvP, but not the mindless garbage Ive seen lately. Maybe Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will be okay........... but Im starting to seriously doubt either of these games as well. 

    And none of these games want to make a challenging game. Challenge seems to begin and end with button mashing races and memorizing dance steps and rotations. Everything else is just streamlined for ease of use. 


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    EQ was wildly successful in the past, and still exists today. Until they changed the focus of the game to be heavily raid focused and infused it with accessibility, it continued to grow the playerbase for over 5 years. Only then, and after a newer alternative came along in the same spirit, did it stop growing.

    Good news is, nothing like EQ or other first gen MMOs (or even vanilla wow) exists today, so no problem there.


  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Perhaps it is time to try something else and see if you can get a different result.
    You do not see the irony in your post, do you...?
    I assume you mean what Amsai stated in his post?
    The time spawn being referred to was the last 5 years. I am not aware of an old school EQ style game being released in that time span. 
    If you are referring to EQ then you note I did not say something new, of course the EQ of today is dated and nothing like it was at the beginning.
     If you meant something else then I guess I did not see whatever it is.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Amsai said:
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Perhaps it is time to try something else and see if you can get a different result.
    You do not see the irony in your post, do you...?
    Guess you are talking about the fact that some of these concepts and mechanics have been done before in the past?

    Thats fine but nothing like this has been tried lately. Ive been looking for a while for a MMO with more oldschool mechanics for years now and havent found any but some new ones in development. As near as I can tell the only ones trying to do it right are Project Gorgon (really more for the AC crowd), SoL (everything takes a bit too long in that one for my taste), and Pantheon. Can you show me any other modern MMO that has features like these?

    So I wouldnt get ahead of myself with the irony jab if I were you. Because for years all I have seen are different face lifts of WoW, and Korean grinders, and a bunch of F2P garbage meant only for making a profit. With a few passable attempts at an okay MMO here and there. Then there is the recent Sandbox PvP rush. Hollow, vacant, and as meanigless as they possibly can be. And I like PvP, but not the mindless garbage Ive seen lately. Maybe Crowfall and Camelot Unchained will be okay........... but Im starting to seriously doubt either of these games as well. 

    And none of these games want to make a challenging game. Challenge seems to begin and end with button mashing races and memorizing dance steps and rotations. Everything else is just streamlined for ease of use. 


    I think that you raise a great question here, what modern MMORPG has the same features? The answer is there isn't one, developed under a publisher. However, crowdfunding has given rise to a few projects that are coming up, Shards Online, Albion Online, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Project Gorgon. So it's actually, an embarrassment of riches for the niche. However, these other options also present a significant problem for Pantheon, being competition. So we're talking about a niche within the genre. We're talking about a subscription game (1) which has a difficulty that is higher than normal (2) and will feature lengthy progression (3). These are all aspects which begin to sculpt what Pantheon will be, but it's also, literally, creating a niche of a niche in an environment where competition will be higher in the coming year or two. Ideally, if you're going to carve out a little niche for yourself, you'd like to be the only player in that niche, really. 

    Another thing I do find interesting is that you seem to doubt both Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Both titles have larger teams and CU has been in development for quite a while now. Both have offered more gameplay footage that Pantheon has up until now. In essence, both are closer to being a complete project. So are you, maybe, forming your opinion of these two games based on what you KNOW to be true based on what you've seen or what's been shown, opposed to what you're speculating that Pantheon will, or has proposed to, do? Lest we forget that Shroud of the Avatar had a very similar trajectory to Pantheon and now sits in a veritable cesspool of doubt and disappointment. Have we built up Pantheon to a point where it can do nothing but let us down? 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    I think each of those games can offer something different for different types of oldschool players. Which i kind of implied in my earlier post. I would recommend PG for AC vets. I would recommend SoL for folks that enjoyed long D&D campaigns. I also dont think its nearly as niche as some think. And there are plenty of MMO audience to go around honestly.

    I only doubt the direction of Crowfall and CU. Not that they will have some success or that they wont be fun for some that enjoy PvP. Its just my opinion but I think truly good PvP has to have some consequences with teeth. And I think it needs to have PvPvE where folks fight over raid targets that drop actual awesome loot with rare drop rates. Not all this siege warfare, resource hording, kingdom building stuff. That stuff just puts me to sleep. You know like Lineage 2 or DAoC scenarios. In other words I think it wrong to separate high end PvE from PvP. Thats just my opinion though. 


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,474
    Mylan12 said:
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Perhaps it is time to try something else and see if you can get a different result.
    You do not see the irony in your post, do you...?
    I assume you mean what Amsai stated in his post?
    The time spawn being referred to was the last 5 years. I am not aware of an old school EQ style game being released in that time span. 
    If you are referring to EQ then you note I did not say something new, of course the EQ of today is dated and nothing like it was at the beginning.
     If you meant something else then I guess I did not see whatever it is.
    I so wanted to post a reply like yours but you beat me to it.

    Now all I can do is "pile on."  :p

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Amsai said:
    I think each of those games can offer something different for different types of oldschool players. Which i kind of implied in my earlier post. I would recommend PG for AC vets. I would recommend SoL for folks that enjoyed long D&D campaigns. I also dont think its nearly as niche as some think. And there are plenty of MMO audience to go around honestly.

    I only doubt the direction of Crowfall and CU. Not that they will have some success or that they wont be fun for some that enjoy PvP. Its just my opinion but I think truly good PvP has to have some consequences with teeth. And I think it needs to have PvPvE where folks fight over raid targets that drop actual awesome loot with rare drop rates. Not all this siege warfare, resource hording, kingdom building stuff. That stuff just puts me to sleep. You know like Lineage 2 or DAoC scenarios. In other words I think it wrong to separate high end PvE from PvP. Thats just my opinion though. 

    The MMO market is larger than ever, but I would question how that market is sub-divided. Subscription MMORPGs have decreased revenues between 2014 and 2016 in every region except Asia. On top of the monetization, the "old school" nature of the game will appeal to a limited audience as well. If we were to take something like SotA as an example, it had 22,000 backers in their KS campaign. They currently have around 35,000 owners on steam, most of whom have actually played it, and about 3600 who have played in the last 2 weeks. This is more likely the reality of the game. Will it do better if it is a great game? Probably, but what's the ceiling? I think that 150k players might be a little too optimistic, especially when you consider that each of these upcoming games will further subdivide the "old school mmorpg" niche. That doesn't mean that Pantheon won't be awesome, it just means that it will feel very specific. It's likely that not everyone will love it. In the end, that's probably a good thing though. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    edited February 2017
    Amsai said:
    Can you show me any other modern MMO that has features like these?
    Can you show me any other modern MMO that has ant farming/[insert feature here]? None?

    Therefore if I make one, it will be a hit.


    That is about reasoning you are proposing here. You may keep your blinders on and rant how current games are trash or w/e silly flies your boat but fact is, those games are what players want to play and spent money on.

    That is why they are being made in the first place, unlike games like Pantheon...
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    edited February 2017
    Mylan12 said:
    I am not aware of an old school EQ style game being released in that time span.
    Do you still remember the quote you posted...? That should give you a hint why games like EQ are no longer made - no point making games that already died years ago and expecting different result.

    So afterall, you didn't get the irony od your very own post...
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,821
    Amsai said:
    I think each of those games can offer something different for different types of oldschool players. Which i kind of implied in my earlier post. I would recommend PG for AC vets. I would recommend SoL for folks that enjoyed long D&D campaigns. I also dont think its nearly as niche as some think. And there are plenty of MMO audience to go around honestly.

    I only doubt the direction of Crowfall and CU. Not that they will have some success or that they wont be fun for some that enjoy PvP. Its just my opinion but I think truly good PvP has to have some consequences with teeth. And I think it needs to have PvPvE where folks fight over raid targets that drop actual awesome loot with rare drop rates. Not all this siege warfare, resource hording, kingdom building stuff. That stuff just puts me to sleep. You know like Lineage 2 or DAoC scenarios. In other words I think it wrong to separate high end PvE from PvP. Thats just my opinion though. 
    Yeah, I miss mixed PvP and PvE.

    But again that comes from people nowadays wanting a safe place to play. They want to be sure that the objective is possible to do. If you put a third party on it, like PvP, they go bananas due the fact they may suck and not be able to get that precious drops.

    The proof of that is the reduced number in unique achievements, rewards and events we see these days. They make something unique, the brats who missed it goes bat shit crazy.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

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  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,367
    Gdemami said:
    Amsai said:
    Can you show me any other modern MMO that has features like these?
    Can you show me any other modern MMO that has ant farming/? None?

    Therefore if I make one, it will be a hit.


    That is about reasoning you are proposing here. You may keep your blinders on and rant how current games are trash or w/e silly flies your boat but fact is, those games are what players want to play and spent money on.

    That is why they are being made in the first place, unlike games like Pantheon...
    Have you seen anyone asking for ant farming on gaming forums? I haven't. But i've seen people asking for many of the features Pantheon is going to have. I also have seen people complaining of many features on games you say players want to play and spend money on.

    What we need now is diversity in mmorpg genre, not more the same we already have. Pantheon could very well crash and burn just like so many other games before, or it may be a beginning of a new mainstream.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    deniter said:
    What we need now is diversity in mmorpg genre, not more the same we already have.
    Says who?
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    edited February 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    literally, creating a niche of a niche in an environment where competition will be higher in the coming year or two. Ideally, if you're going to carve out a little niche for yourself, you'd like to be the only player in that niche, really.
    That is just a misuse/wrong use of the term.  Aiming for low profits/low playerbase isn't niche, that is a failure.

    It is only on these boards, "the nerds", that are so narrow minded they have tendency to put pretty or less pretty labels on everything.

    Average Joes do not care, they play what they find fun and then it is up to devs whether they can successfully cater to their largest audience.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    edited February 2017
    Gdemami said:
    deniter said:
    What we need now is diversity in mmorpg genre, not more the same we already have.
    Says who?

    Says the saturated market that has many titles featuring the same type of gameplay. There is a reason less and less titles are being released every year and more are showing up in the KS/EA space. Do you see any of these KS/EA titles feature mainstream gameplay? No?

    As to the request for a gameplay similar to EQ, what Pantheon proposes, are you intentionally ignoring the popularity of private servers across multiple MMOs, featuring harder content/progression and less convenience? If it's not for you great, you are in a golden age of MMOs. To say that there is not an interest in the "old school" model where easy mode is not the main dish served, you're either being intentionally dishonest or unintentionally ignorant.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    I am not aware of an old school EQ style game being released in that time span.
    Do you still remember the quote you posted...? That should give you a hint why games like EQ are no longer made - no point making games that already died years ago and expecting different result.

    So afterall, you didn't get the irony od your very own post...
    Yeah I guess that is sort of a point, a very poor one though. EQ is still around so its not dead and the EQ of today is nothing like it was the first couple of years.
     The same could be said for all these open world PVP games being made as well we had UO which I did play and its more dead than EQ.  UO had skill based rather than level based progression so guess we better forget about any new game trying that as its dead.
      You could also say the same for these new lobby based multiplayer player games well we had Diablo 1 (which I also played and was an officer in a guild with over 300 members), that has been done before and its dead.
    Why make any game as most basic ideas have been done in the past and most of those old games are dead.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Nyctelios said:
    Amsai said:
    I think each of those games can offer something different for different types of oldschool players. Which i kind of implied in my earlier post. I would recommend PG for AC vets. I would recommend SoL for folks that enjoyed long D&D campaigns. I also dont think its nearly as niche as some think. And there are plenty of MMO audience to go around honestly.

    I only doubt the direction of Crowfall and CU. Not that they will have some success or that they wont be fun for some that enjoy PvP. Its just my opinion but I think truly good PvP has to have some consequences with teeth. And I think it needs to have PvPvE where folks fight over raid targets that drop actual awesome loot with rare drop rates. Not all this siege warfare, resource hording, kingdom building stuff. That stuff just puts me to sleep. You know like Lineage 2 or DAoC scenarios. In other words I think it wrong to separate high end PvE from PvP. Thats just my opinion though. 
    Yeah, I miss mixed PvP and PvE.

    But again that comes from people nowadays wanting a safe place to play. They want to be sure that the objective is possible to do. If you put a third party on it, like PvP, they go bananas due the fact they may suck and not be able to get that precious drops.

    The proof of that is the reduced number in unique achievements, rewards and events we see these days. They make something unique, the brats who missed it goes bat shit crazy.


    Meh...... I would argue that there is a cross-section of people who want absolutely no interference from other players, but I think that what we have is a symptom of a larger problem. Personally, I think it used to be fun because there was a different mentality. I feel like player goals and expectations were different. You might get killed by someone during your travels, but the incident rate where you would be ganked and then camped for the next hour was MUCH lower. You might have people holding an area, boss, dungeon, etc. but that is two groups of people battling over some target, it isn't one person acting like an asshole. 

    However, I do agree that people looking for achievements have contributed to the decline of difficulty. I think that it might be an expectation in something like WoW, but I really hope that Pantheon sticks to their guns on difficulty. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
    people are way to overhyped about this game.

    dont led yourself dragg into the same shit over over again and just wait till release.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    edited February 2017
    Mylan12 said:
    Why make any game as most basic ideas have been done in the past and most of those old games are dead.
    You still do not understand the difference, do you?

    There are some old mechanics, that are still popular, some mechanics on the other hand are indeed dead and no longer preferred by players - EQ.

    Remember, players may whine on forums as much as they want but at the end, they vote with their wallets.
    Post edited by Gdemami on
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    Aelious said:
    To say that there is not an interest in the "old school" model where easy mode is not the main dish served, you're either being intentionally dishonest or unintentionally ignorant.
    Yup, whoever disagree with your biased perception and flawed arguments is intentionally dishonest or unintentionally ignorant.

    Makes sense.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Why make any game as most basic ideas have been done in the past and most of those old games are dead.
    You still do not understand the difference, do you?

    There are some old mechanics, that are still popular, some mechanics on the other are indeed dead and no longer preferred by players - EQ.

    Remember, players may whine on forums as much as they want but at the end, they vote with their wallets.
    There is no option to vote for a game like the original EQ with our wallets. Evidently, you know nothing about EQ and how it changed post 2002. By 2004 it was focused much less on the journey, and heavily on the destination. That being end game, especially raiding. By that time, WoW was out and doing almost everything that EQ was doing, but better.

    Since then, no one has even attempted to make another game like it. Not because no one has wanted to play it, as you so fallaciously proclaim, but because all development dollars were put into emulating World of Warcraft.

    Let's stop pretending that Pantheon will do poorly because people no longer play an 18 year old MMO that in no way reflects what most of us found so appealing about the original game.


  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,506
    edited February 2017
    didn't it already die once?

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Gdemami said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Why make any game as most basic ideas have been done in the past and most of those old games are dead.
    You still do not understand the difference, do you?

    There are some old mechanics, that are still popular, some mechanics on the other are indeed dead and no longer preferred by players - EQ.

    Remember, players may whine on forums as much as they want but at the end, they vote with their wallets.
    I understand what you are trying to say but its a bunch of BS.  EQ had a lot of mechanics if you want to call it that and WoW used most of them in its game. Since WoW most games have copied it and the mechanics it used from EQ and a few they developed themselves.
     Does this mean that something WoW decided to use from EQ is the best or only way to do something to be successful, i think not.
      You could say the same about CU, its using some mechanics similar to DAoC and that game is as dead as EQ.   I have not checked but I assume you are posting away on that forum also.

    I understand you don't like the idea of this game at all. Some people don't like group based games and prefer solo based MMORPGs, that is fine they have lots of those to chose from. Some people like easy games, lots of those around also. Some people are not playing any MMORPG as they don't like any of them, perhaps this game will be for them. Perhaps not.

     I not sure why you are even here as it clear this is not your type game. It take a lot less effort for you to go play one of those many "perfect" MMORPGs that use just the mechanics that you approve. I don't think you going to have much success changing this game into one of those.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    edited February 2017
    Mylan12 said:
    You could say the same about CU
    Indeed all of that applies to CU as well, you seem to be getting a hang of it.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Gdemami said:
    Aelious said:
    To say that there is not an interest in the "old school" model where easy mode is not the main dish served, you're either being intentionally dishonest or unintentionally ignorant.
    Yup, whoever disagree with your biased perception and flawed arguments is intentionally dishonest or unintentionally ignorant.

    Makes sense.
    Nice attempt to bypass my points. I made my case pretty clear and if you don't have counter arguments that's fine but please don't act like all I did was pander to my own opinion.

    In the end if Pantheon doesn't have what you're looking for, don't play. At some point the game will release and we'll indeed see if there is a market for it. I can't wait!
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,223
    Dullahan said:
    There is no option to vote for a game like the original EQ with our wallets.
    Of course there is: You either pay for EQ or some other game.
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