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Wall Hack out already for Star Marine

13

Comments

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    Limnic said:
    Yes, by implementing a game feature in a way that it could have simply implemented when first developing the title.

    You're talking in circles.
    Yes, hence the only good thing here is how SC is one alpha and exploitation is already happening. They can be right now aware of how is the game being exploited and plan ahead. 

    When it comes to predict I think many times devs only get to see for real how is their game being exploited, once it releases, that is the games who do not have alpha/beta periods (or timed beta tests where that exploitation doesn't happen).
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:

    But end of the day, exploiting to start at earlier stages (it will happen in any way) can be dealt with in due time so when the game is out and stuff is for real they won't be much of a problem. 

    I dont know what you are drinking but I sure wish you would share it with the rest of us.  Exploiting/hacking is a problem in every multiplayer/FPS game I know of.  For you to just blurt out that it wont be much of a problem in SC at launch simply shows the extent of your devotion to the game.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,289
    MaxBacon said:
    Limnic said:
    Yes, by implementing a game feature in a way that it could have simply implemented when first developing the title.

    You're talking in circles.
    Yes, hence the only good thing here is how SC is one alpha and exploitation is already happening. They can be right now aware of how is the game being exploited and plan ahead. 

    When it comes to predict I think many times devs only get to see for real how is their game being exploited, once it releases, that is the games who do not have alpha/beta periods (or timed beta tests where that exploitation doesn't happen).
    Yes, I totally get that they need to have an alpha to figure out that when doing a FPS on the PC platform someone will make a wall hack for it. This is a completely new concept not known to anyone who has ever played or programmed a FPS.

    Totally makes sense. They could in no way just have foreseen that that would be how someone would hack it.

    Yup, yup.

    Irony aside, the issue is real, and the sad truth is that no real 100% effective counter exist or is likely to exist. Ever. So get used to it. It is yet another reason to why we can never have nice stuff...
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    @hfztt the fun part is the same creator of this SC hacks made the same hacks for actual proper fully released FPS games as the new Battlefield, Titanfall 2 and The Division; if fully dedicated FPS shooters don't escape it much less would SC. heh

    Talonsin said:
    I dont know what you are drinking but I sure wish you would share it with the rest of us.  Exploiting/hacking is a problem in every multiplayer/FPS game I know of.  For you to just blurt out that it wont be much of a problem in SC at launch simply shows the extent of your devotion to the game.
    Really now? 

    Not much of a problem = the problem already arose at the earlier stages, during SC's alpha, more than enough time to deal with this issues until release.

    More of a problem = a game that releases without have been through alpha/beta stages; hence it will face the exploitation problems at release.

    This attack was so cheap it actually insulted me. >.>
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 4,787
    edited January 2017
    Kefo said:
    [mod edit]
    I don't see any "disagreement" between @Limnic and @MaxBacon on the fundamental issue about what to do about hackers. More a case of what will work best, when to do it and so forth. And clearly as early as possible is best.
    Post edited by Vaross on
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 4,787
    edited January 2017
    hfztt said:

    Yes, I totally get that they need to have an alpha to figure out that when doing a FPS on the PC platform someone will make a wall hack for it. This is a completely new concept not known to anyone who has ever played or programmed a FPS.

    Totally makes sense. They could in no way just have foreseen that that would be how someone would hack it.

    Yup, yup.

    Irony aside, the issue is real, and the sad truth is that no real 100% effective counter exist or is likely to exist. Ever. So get used to it. It is yet another reason to why we can never have nice stuff...
    Yup those SC devs clearly didn't see this coming.

    They should - obviously - have delayed the release of 2.6 whilst they worked on some ultra-hard to crack security.

    And I am absolutely sure @hfztt that you would have posted how this was a good move. And you would have completely defended them against posts that called this a bullshit excuse intended to cover up delays.

    Yup, yup.

    Irony aside I agree that it is an issue that will have to be addressed.
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    gervaise1 said:
     this a bullshit excuse intended to cover up delays.
    There goes another 2 years!

    Until these issues start being worked upon...


    But to be fair this is also a thing https://i.imgur.com/DeT0wEZ.jpg
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,289
    gervaise1 said:

    And I am absolutely sure @hfztt that you would have posted how this was a good move. And you would have completely defended them against posts that called this a bullshit excuse intended to cover up delays.
    While I am no SC believer, I do actually tend to be fair'ish, so yeah, I would likely have given them props if they had figured a good counter to wall hacks, as I would claim it to be a fairly unsolvable problem. I certainly would give credit where credit is due.

    I have defended CiG from time to time, and given thumbs up when they have done right by the backers. Summer 2015 I was the first on this site to give them credit when they shot down Mr. Smart's "it cant be done" with a very nice tech demo showing off what he said could not be done.

    They just do not give me as much to approve of as I would like, so you do not see it much.
  • Turrican187Turrican187 Member UncommonPosts: 767
    MaxBacon said:
    @hfztt the fun part is the same creator of this SC hacks made the same hacks for actual proper fully released FPS games as the new Battlefield, Titanfall 2 and The Division; if fully dedicated FPS shooters don't escape it much less would SC. heh
    [...]
    It's engine dependant not game dependant, if you know where to search for it's very easy - Wallhack on top of this is read only and client side though - done good, with a program that alters it's signature and process name during install very hard to detect.

    When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
    The cake is a lie.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,400
    There will be hacks if the game is popular enough.

    I play high rank competitive CSGO and there are people with wallhack too. I dont think you can fully prevent it.

    Valve implemented number of relatively effective mechanisms to migitage the hacking, such as Prime Accounts and Overwatch. 
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 8,937
    Official CIG response (by TylerN-CIG)

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7437317/#Comment_7437317

    "Hi All,

    Cheat prevention in Star Citizen and Squadron 42 is a priority for us, and we have gathered lots of feedback from internal and external sources since the initial release of Star Marine. Rest assured, we have already begun banning violators as well as working on short-term, and long-term solutions for preventing the use of 3rd party programs.

    Requesting video evidence helps us achieve a few things – It substantiates claims made by players, which we compare with our internal data, and it helps us improve the functionality of our tools to better combat cheaters proactively.

    I’ve collected some feedback from this thread and will send it to the appropriate party so that our messaging is more clear going forward. "


    There also is another CIG information about cheats
    (from Mac Scrilla, Player Relations Team, RSI/CIG)

    "We are aware of the issues and have always been working towards iterations of Star Citizen to address these issues.

    We have a Zero-Tolerance Policy for the use of Cheats and the use of said Cheats are a breach of our Terms of Service, resulting in a closure of an account and access to Star Citizen without a refund."


    Have fun



  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 2,831
    edited January 2017
    Erillion said:
    Official CIG response (by TylerN-CIG)

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7437317/#Comment_7437317

    "Hi All,

    Cheat prevention in Star Citizen and Squadron 42 is a priority for us, and we have gathered lots of feedback from internal and external sources since the initial release of Star Marine. Rest assured, we have already begun banning violators as well as working on short-term, and long-term solutions for preventing the use of 3rd party programs.

    Requesting video evidence helps us achieve a few things – It substantiates claims made by players, which we compare with our internal data, and it helps us improve the functionality of our tools to better combat cheaters proactively.

    I’ve collected some feedback from this thread and will send it to the appropriate party so that our messaging is more clear going forward. "


    There also is another CIG information about cheats
    (from Mac Scrilla, Player Relations Team, RSI/CIG)

    "We are aware of the issues and have always been working towards iterations of Star Citizen to address these issues.

    We have a Zero-Tolerance Policy for the use of Cheats and the use of said Cheats are a breach of our Terms of Service, resulting in a closure of an account and access to Star Citizen without a refund."


    Have fun




    Hopefully they don't get too many false positives what with it being an alpha test with all the usual bugs....

    Post edited by rpmcmurphy on
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,643
    Due to the nature of online games, I doubt that it will ever be possible to make cheat-proof games.

    The emphasis will most likely always be on the efficient detection and prosecution of offenders. That is problematic enough already...
  • ThaneThane Member RarePosts: 2,887
    edited January 2017
    hfztt said: (...)
    Irony aside, the issue is real, and the sad truth is that no real 100% effective counter exist or is likely to exist. Ever. So get used to it. It is yet another reason to why we can never have nice stuff...
    best counter i saw so far was called "battle.net".
    even helios didn't wanna mess with blizzard :)
    Post edited by Thane on

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 4,787
    I think what Respawn did with Titanfall was superb. Dumping bot users onto a server made up of just bot users. So no banning, no appeals - they probably didn't have to tell people specifically either.

    Is there anything along these lines that could be done? Obviously dumping the players into a parrellel universe isn't on - well I say that but assuming it isn't in a game like SC is there some sort of "penalty" that could be applied - short of banning an account?

    And if any justification was needed etc. then it would be an assumption that a bot is something carried around that adds weight, EMC interference - whatever. Ideally a rolling series of "penalties" that can be rolled out - making an assumption that bot developers will be able to counter whatever is added. If they keep "breaking" though + the devs have to keep spending time modifying them then - maybe - it becomes unattractive.

    Not sure. Thinking aloud. And obviously it is not an SC specific thing.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    gervaise1 said:
    Is there anything along these lines that could be done? 
    The nature of the network design of how the game rather moved away from the instance ways, what would tackle that idea of the "pvp slider" as well, seems that they are going to keep players more persistent on a single universe.

    What I imagine it can be done with a good detection system is apply some background debuffs to the player; I know some games and ban systems that do "Discouraging", instead of getting a ban message you just get a ton of issues and other annoyances (super long loading screens) and you don't realize your account was flagged and eventually just give up and leave the game. There's part of the issue coming from stolen accounts as well what makes it complicated.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 10,921
    gervaise1 said:
    I think what Respawn did with Titanfall was superb. Dumping bot users onto a server made up of just bot users. So no banning, no appeals - they probably didn't have to tell people specifically either.

    Is there anything along these lines that could be done? Obviously dumping the players into a parrellel universe isn't on - well I say that but assuming it isn't in a game like SC is there some sort of "penalty" that could be applied - short of banning an account?

    And if any justification was needed etc. then it would be an assumption that a bot is something carried around that adds weight, EMC interference - whatever. Ideally a rolling series of "penalties" that can be rolled out - making an assumption that bot developers will be able to counter whatever is added. If they keep "breaking" though + the devs have to keep spending time modifying them then - maybe - it becomes unattractive.

    Not sure. Thinking aloud. And obviously it is not an SC specific thing.
    Yeah I like those penal colony types of solution. Hell, they should probably have an alternate "bring on the drugs" Olympics. Hopefully there wouldn't be too many deaths during the competitions :)
    “That's how the madness of the world tries to colonize you: from the outside in, forcing you to live in its reality.” 
    ― Jeff VanderMeerAnnihilation
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    Iselin said:
    Yeah I like those penal colony types of solution. Hell, they should probably have an alternate "bring on the drugs" Olympics. Hopefully there wouldn't be too many deaths during the competitions :)
    The issue with having direct consequences for it is that it can make possible to hackers to do safe-testing against the game's security systems and more easily find ways to dodge them.

    The trick that makes the current systems work is letting intentionally people hack and then ban them later, they need to make sure they will never know when their account got flagged for hacking, what makes them have a hard time.

    The game that puts cheaters and such playing together for example if they put enforce the consequence right away, one hacker developing a tool just needs to be aware once that happens to keep safe-testing his tool up until the point the game will not enforce the consequence, flagging first > action later needs to be the way, this for the majority of them that are client-sided exploits.

    Then on actions, it's up to your imagination, put them inside a black hole, troll them, anything goes really xD
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,643
    Iselin said:
    gervaise1 said:
    I think what Respawn did with Titanfall was superb. Dumping bot users onto a server made up of just bot users. So no banning, no appeals - they probably didn't have to tell people specifically either.

    Is there anything along these lines that could be done? Obviously dumping the players into a parrellel universe isn't on - well I say that but assuming it isn't in a game like SC is there some sort of "penalty" that could be applied - short of banning an account?

    And if any justification was needed etc. then it would be an assumption that a bot is something carried around that adds weight, EMC interference - whatever. Ideally a rolling series of "penalties" that can be rolled out - making an assumption that bot developers will be able to counter whatever is added. If they keep "breaking" though + the devs have to keep spending time modifying them then - maybe - it becomes unattractive.

    Not sure. Thinking aloud. And obviously it is not an SC specific thing.
    Yeah I like those penal colony types of solution. Hell, they should probably have an alternate "bring on the drugs" Olympics. Hopefully there wouldn't be too many deaths during the competitions :)
    Guess what ?

    The "alternative Olympics" will get 10x the viewership, specially if there's the prospect of a few fatalities !

    "Bread and Circuses". The old Roman's knew how to do it. We're slowly getting back there it seems, now that people have started streaming physical abuse live on the internet...
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,485
    MaxBacon said:
    So just noticed CIG has replied to the hacking issues already.
    Seems they already starting banning, permbans with no refunds!

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/7437317/#Comment_7437317


    I wonder if they can offer no refunds after a ban since this is still in development and the finished game hasn't been delivered? It would be interesting to see what comes of this
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    Kefo said:
    I wonder if they can offer no refunds after a ban since this is still in development and the finished game hasn't been delivered? It would be interesting to see what comes of this
    It seems as the 2nd source I just edited from their support the using of cheating and any other exploiting is already a breach of the ToS; it is put independent of it being the released game or the alpha game. It is actually global, it's all RSI services, attempts to hack or exploit the website plays by the same terms.

    I'd say it is a well worth punishment loose access to the game they backed, it's their choice to resort to hacking within the game.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • WizardryWizardry Member EpicPosts: 14,121
    To be fair,you are never.absolutely never going to stop hacking unless games run 100% server side...not happening ever.
    There are only a few solutions a team dedicated to anti hack by constantly updating and changing ID's pretty much everyday.Private servers so players can choose who plays on their server but then there goes your open world MMO.
    You could have a really big deterrent but that  would only stop poor people ,not the rich.If the game cost 300 bucks,you might be worried about  losing your account but then at that cost,not many would play.

    So i guess in reality,there is no solution,get used  it ,welcome to pvp gaming.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,485
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    I wonder if they can offer no refunds after a ban since this is still in development and the finished game hasn't been delivered? It would be interesting to see what comes of this
    It seems as the 2nd source I just edited from their support the using of cheating and any other exploiting is already a breach of the ToS; it is put independent of it being the released game or the alpha game. It is actually global, it's all RSI services, attempts to hack or exploit the website plays by the same terms.

    I'd say it is a well worth punishment loose access to the game they backed, it's their choice to resort to hacking within the game.
    You and I both know a TOS means nothing and in some countries it would be a waste of CIG's time to try and fight that
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 5,389
    edited January 2017
    Kefo said:
    You and I both know a TOS means nothing and in some countries it would be a waste of CIG's time to try and fight that
    As it is with SC, it is with every other company. Not even Valve can enforce their TOS on some costumers.

    Though those are not the majority, and even in the states many of these policies are left to the company refund policy to decide, if within that policy the hacking and exploitation of the game or any of the game's services deny your right to get a refund, then they are on their right. Exceptions will be exceptions, though the fact someone is a backer can't be a free pass that the dev is forced to pay money back so someone stops hacking or cheating their game.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
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