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I remember Verant...

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  • SirLornSirLorn Member UncommonPosts: 212
    No, see this is where you all are wrong.  PvP in MOST cases is not viewed as friendly competition as it should be....one of the dynamics from the list of reasons most PvE players do not like it, is because you have unsportsman like conduct and griefing, and just aholes in general that get their kicks off of bullying other players because the PvP mechanics allow this to happen.  That being said, name a sandbox that is successful, IE still operating that doesn't have PvP.  Or, applying your logic, as it totally ignores my point of AI being limited, to most single player sandboxes that are loved by millions?!  Like, Fallout, what if you had to play Fallout as a man of faith that couldn't interact with any weapons at all, much less kill mobs?!

    Ok, so.....Guild competition for example....in most games, where the content that's is along the lines of what you all are describing, competing with another guild means, or meant getting to the mob before the competitor did, if you did not play on the PvP servers of VG, and contested or were contested for content, and how friggin fun it was, I doubt you will get it.......I am basically putting the blame for this on OUR shoulders, not the industries.....we cultivate these mentalities, and cry and moan till we get our way.....instead of accepting something for the way it is, be an example, because thats what most tend to do......"meh, it's just the way it is"  
  • dcutbi001dcutbi001 Member UncommonPosts: 49
    SirLorn said:
    No, see this is where you all are wrong.  PvP in MOST cases is not viewed as friendly competition as it should be....one of the dynamics from the list of reasons most PvE players do not like it, is because you have unsportsman like conduct and griefing, and just aholes in general that get their kicks off of bullying other players because the PvP mechanics allow this to happen.  That being said, name a sandbox that is successful, IE still operating that doesn't have PvP.  Or, applying your logic, as it totally ignores my point of AI being limited, to most single player sandboxes that are loved by millions?!  Like, Fallout, what if you had to play Fallout as a man of faith that couldn't interact with any weapons at all, much less kill mobs?!

    Ok, so.....Guild competition for example....in most games, where the content that's is along the lines of what you all are describing, competing with another guild means, or meant getting to the mob before the competitor did, if you did not play on the PvP servers of VG, and contested or were contested for content, and how friggin fun it was, I doubt you will get it.......I am basically putting the blame for this on OUR shoulders, not the industries.....we cultivate these mentalities, and cry and moan till we get our way.....instead of accepting something for the way it is, be an example, because thats what most tend to do......"meh, it's just the way it is"  
    They will have at least 1 pvp server at launch, so you'll be fine. It most certainly will not be on all servers though. If that's your hope, then there is a 100% chance you will be disappointed. 
  • SirLornSirLorn Member UncommonPosts: 212
    I agree, social engagements are what define an MMO.....and why should their be a RP / PvP / PvE server choice, it is silly....I want to be engaged, and if some rogue infiltrates, and pulls off some epic betrayal and kills the guild leader, and gets the "golden thing", I mean no SWTOR storyline even touches that as an immersive story, a dynamic event that you were there for, that's friggin DnD bard greatness right there, at the same time, some known for griefing guild is just picking on the new kids on the block, who are more farmer then fighter, and you have a coalition of people that step in, and it sparks a factional war that ends up encompassing a years worth of play and engaging RP, PvP, and PvE.....why would you NOT want that?!

    I guess yes those 'lists' can be considered as such fs23otm, no they are not my cup of tea, but I will not count that out just because I am not a fan
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Even when i played on p99 I was absolutely scared of running around Sebilis alone, hoping not to aggro anything or enjoy my 2 hour corpse run. Being afraid of the environment is not nostalgia, it's good design.

    I 'member
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,934
    edited December 2016
    SirLorn said:
    I totally disagree, Sandbox does equal PvP, if you want to have immersion, you know because nothing defines immersion as free will on rails ....come on man, the gent earlier said it best, if I see PvP I steer clear of it, why though?!  Brad and his team could, is what I was on about COULD bridge that gap, and should IMHO!    It is funny, because, it is VG that made me realize my 'main' MMO moving forward would never NOT be PvP centric......you can only beat an AI so many times before it gets old hat.....add in the human element as a additional point of contention, and you add diverse, fresh possibilities, and longevity to your title.  
    I don't believe that is true at all. Besides that fact that no one agrees on what a sandbox is, Tale in the Desert is a sandbox game and doesn't have pvp.

    As far as immersion that is more a personal thing and one's mileage may vary on that.

    As far as "only beating ai so many times before it gets old hat" that is probably because for you you need to "vanquish" something that tests your skill/character's skill.

    For others, beating/losing to ai is more of a "beat" or "plot point" in their game play.

    You are saying that the human element in  combat is necessary but that's because you might not see enjoyment without it.

    But to others there is no enjoyment with the human element and combat is just part of the tapestry of the game world "today I crafted then went out to gather resources, I was attacked but was able to defeat my foe long enough to get my items and make it back to the city".

    The need to actually be tested is not necessary as they just want to follow the story elements of the world they are in.








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  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687
    PvP has already been decided. Pantheon is a PvE focued game but there will be PvP Servers, just as there were in EQ. For me PvP is useless. Ive played on Multiple PvP servers in various games and can hold my own. What Ive noticed on more than one occasion is that PvP are typically the players who want to do nothing but grief other players. If I am personally doing open world pvp and I kill someone, I go about my business. If they want to come after me and have another go, great but I dont wait around and spawn camp. Ive seen entirely to many kids who will do nothing more than harass other players by spawn camping just to be asshats. I have no time for those types of players.

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  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,503
    edited December 2016
    carotid said:
    DMKano said:
    Krimzin said:
    @DMKano  Have you watched any of the streams? With a group of 6 they were still struggling at times, even at lower levels. B. McQuaid made it point over and over that the game is going to be built around grouping. 
    I dont think you will see much solo play, things like CC and mobs fleeing will make that hard to do.
    Which to be honest, Im fine with I think group play is so much better than solo play.
    I've seen all the streams.

    Mark my words - if Pantheon ever sees a launch day - it will be as soloable as vanilla EQ1

    But that would be ok as long as it's not like MMOs of today. Certain classes should stand out.
    The instant the community finds out that Class A is 'more ok' than Class B is when there will be a glut of Class A and a shortage of Class B.  If Class B happens to be essential to successful grouping (the only viable healer, tank, crowd controller or DPS), the concept of a group-centric game will simply fall apart.  The player population isn't going to be distributed evenly, and unless 'non-prime' classes can do the jobs as well as the 'prime' classes, that will mean everyone is likely to be sitting around trying to build a group waiting for that 'prime' class.   That or they will be trying to succeed (with lots of 'exciting' corpse runs) with a sub-prime group, and building their frustration.  Waiting will drive away the modern player, and that is a big risk for the financial success of games like Pantheon.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,453
    Krimzin said:
    PvP has already been decided. Pantheon is a PvE focued game but there will be PvP Servers, just as there were in EQ. For me PvP is useless. Ive played on Multiple PvP servers in various games and can hold my own. What Ive noticed on more than one occasion is that PvP are typically the players who want to do nothing but grief other players. If I am personally doing open world pvp and I kill someone, I go about my business. If they want to come after me and have another go, great but I dont wait around and spawn camp. Ive seen entirely to many kids who will do nothing more than harass other players by spawn camping just to be asshats. I have no time for those types of players.
    But one of the things that hurt EQ early was constant class adjustments because it wasnt working right for PVP....It should just be a PVE game....Forget PVP...Almost every single MMO in existence has some form of PVP....These games are just so terrified of leaving PVPers out that they often screw up their game trying to please them.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Krimzin said:
    PvP has already been decided. Pantheon is a PvE focued game but there will be PvP Servers, just as there were in EQ. For me PvP is useless. Ive played on Multiple PvP servers in various games and can hold my own. What Ive noticed on more than one occasion is that PvP are typically the players who want to do nothing but grief other players. If I am personally doing open world pvp and I kill someone, I go about my business. If they want to come after me and have another go, great but I dont wait around and spawn camp. Ive seen entirely to many kids who will do nothing more than harass other players by spawn camping just to be asshats. I have no time for those types of players.
    But one of the things that hurt EQ early was constant class adjustments because it wasnt working right for PVP....It should just be a PVE game....Forget PVP...Almost every single MMO in existence has some form of PVP....These games are just so terrified of leaving PVPers out that they often screw up their game trying to please them.
    This literally didn't happen.


  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    SirLorn said:
    No, see this is where you all are wrong.  PvP in MOST cases is not viewed as friendly competition as it should be....one of the dynamics from the list of reasons most PvE players do not like it, is because you have unsportsman like conduct and griefing, and just aholes in general that get their kicks off of bullying other players because the PvP mechanics allow this to happen.  That being said, name a sandbox that is successful, IE still operating that doesn't have PvP.  Or, applying your logic, as it totally ignores my point of AI being limited, to most single player sandboxes that are loved by millions?!  Like, Fallout, what if you had to play Fallout as a man of faith that couldn't interact with any weapons at all, much less kill mobs?!

    Ok, so.....Guild competition for example....in most games, where the content that's is along the lines of what you all are describing, competing with another guild means, or meant getting to the mob before the competitor did, if you did not play on the PvP servers of VG, and contested or were contested for content, and how friggin fun it was, I doubt you will get it.......I am basically putting the blame for this on OUR shoulders, not the industries.....we cultivate these mentalities, and cry and moan till we get our way.....instead of accepting something for the way it is, be an example, because thats what most tend to do......"meh, it's just the way it is"  

    Because that is the way it will never be?  Look, I like the concept of PvP.  I believe it would add an interesting development to fights if you had to worry about friendly (and unfriendly fire) while adventuring.

    However PvP in games does end up like PvP in real life - a small percentage of people will ruin (drive off) people that might be ok with consequential PvP.  In real life you go by yourself down into a bad part of town wearing decent gear you have a higher possibility of getting 'ganked' by a gang or a even a solo person when they have an overwhelming advantage (a gun and no police presence).  My response to this situation is to avoid putting myself into this situation.

    As I understand it, Pantheon will have a PvP server at launch and everyone interested in PvP will be able to play together.  Win-win until the PvP players get bored killing each other and the server dies back.  As I recall EQ had 3 PvP ruleset servers that were not that populated, but I could be wrong as I didn't play on them.

    I do hope the developers design in both PvE and PvP affects for each ability from the start so one style of play can be modified without affecting the other.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited December 2016
    Rallos, Tallon, Vallon and Sullon and all four were pretty well populated until Verant left. After that it was amateur hour and between AAs and a borked resist system, it eventually died down. Had nothing to do with people getting tired of killing each other.

    EQ pvp on Rallos was never about ganking past level 15. It was about guild rivalries for content and killing random PKs. Ganking guaranteed you'd be hunted down and probably struggle to ever reach max level or get a decent set of gear.

    You'd be surprised how respectful people are on a PvP server when you have something to lose and you have to rely on people to progress.


  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Dullahan said:
    Rallos, Tallon, Vallon and Sullon and all four were pretty well populated until Verant left. After that it was amateur hour and between AAs and a borked resist system, it eventually died down. Had nothing to do with people getting tired of killing each other.

    EQ pvp on Rallos was never about ganking past level 15. It was about guild rivalries for content and killing random PKs. Ganking guaranteed you'd be hunted down and probably struggle to ever reach max level or get a decent set of gear.

    You'd be surprised how respectful people are on a PvP server when you have something to lose and you have to rely on people to progress.

    Good to know - I never played on the PvP servers - I just remember reading about them on the forums (and that was probably after they started to die - I don't honestly remember).

    I'm all for having an alternate ruleset (PvP) if they design it in from the start.  I would like them to keep the effects separate so they can tweak the effects depending on PvE or PvP.  That will remove one source of tension :)
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    DMKano said:
    tegweien said:
    I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


         Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

    Being scared  of mobs has a lot more to do with "first MMORPG" experience than anything else.

    Sure EQ1 had real bite to its death mechanic and it had high level mobs mixed in with lower level mobs (shadowmen camps in starting zones were always fun) - but you won't feel the same in Pantheon.

    In Pantheon they can do the same thing and I doubt that you'll be "scared" - you'll probably be like - oh those guys there are too high level for me, so just avoid until later.

    Recapturing the same potency of "feelings" evoked by the first MMORPGs is impossible.
    Quite possibly the only thing I will ever agree with you on. You get an ' Agree " upvote!
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,659
    SlyLoK said:
    DMKano said:
    tegweien said:
    I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


         Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

    Being scared  of mobs has a lot more to do with "first MMORPG" experience than anything else.

    Sure EQ1 had real bite to its death mechanic and it had high level mobs mixed in with lower level mobs (shadowmen camps in starting zones were always fun) - but you won't feel the same in Pantheon.

    In Pantheon they can do the same thing and I doubt that you'll be "scared" - you'll probably be like - oh those guys there are too high level for me, so just avoid until later.

    Recapturing the same potency of "feelings" evoked by the first MMORPGs is impossible.
    Quite possibly the only thing I will ever agree with you on. You get an ' Agree " upvote!
    Have to agree on the agree I will find Everquest now dead easy compared to when I started since it was my very first MMORPG.
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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,071
    I think the fantasy of what EQ was back then is greater than the reality of what this game will be.....Taking EQ as an example, many of the players that have left never returned, even after it went f2p and they could play their old characters again....I had 2 guilds with over 100 toons in each and I was the only one that ever checked back in......I think this will definitely be a niche game......While the nostalgia for this kind of game is great, I dont see  people willing to pay much for it
    Ever Quest was amazing because for many of us it was the first foray into these types of games.  MMORPGs actually felt like an online world back then, and the people who played it were starkly different in demeanor and intent, as well.  Things have not been the same since the genre went "critical mass."  I agree with you.  I doubt I will play this game, even though EQ2 is the most memorable gaming experience of my life.

    I'm also not willing to buy a new PC which seems to be a system requirement for half the games that release these days, unless it releases for Mac and plays well there.  I have friends who have played other MMORPGs with me, and unless they can run the game well enough to join me, games tend to be dead to me these days.  I'm over "making new friends with strangers."  I want my RL friends to join me in the adventure.

    Otherwise, why not play Diablo, Overwatch, etc.?  Something with less harsh time commitments, and high fun factor, that anyone can play.

    I'm also pessimistic because indie games tend to be badly optimized and designed by committee to please sponsors (i.e. hardware companies who want to sell hardware) and donors who want to put the expensive hardware they've bought to work.

    I find it interesting how the genre that was most inclusive has become extremely exclusive.  FPS games are not more welcoming to the masses then MMORPGs, these days.
  • Hokanu99Hokanu99 Member UncommonPosts: 12
    DMKano said:
    tegweien said:
    I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


         Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

    Being scared  of mobs has a lot more to do with "first MMORPG" experience than anything else.

    Sure EQ1 had real bite to its death mechanic and it had high level mobs mixed in with lower level mobs (shadowmen camps in starting zones were always fun) - but you won't feel the same in Pantheon.

    In Pantheon they can do the same thing and I doubt that you'll be "scared" - you'll probably be like - oh those guys there are too high level for me, so just avoid until later.

    Recapturing the same potency of "feelings" evoked by the first MMORPGs is impossible.
    I've gone back to P99 and I found myself still scared to death by things like the orcs at the orc camps and by the griffin / air elemental flying around EC and by the lions roaming nearby when i could only take out spiders / beetles etc.  I think it was a combination of varying levels of mobs, most things being agro, the threat of a pop very close to you and mobs being generally more dangerous than me lol. The decaying skeles and fire beetles didn't freak me out and killing them felt like about the same challenge as almost any level in a newer mmo  :lol:

    Later on i come back to these bigger mobs in EC with a few other players and we even up the odds :)
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    fs23otm said:
    SirLorn said:
     IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.  
     Sandbox does not equal PVP.... people need to get that lesson down. 

    Brad's games have never been about PVP, even though you could play on a PVP ruleset server, the games were never designed, nor will ever be, around PVP. 

    This is a good thing, as there is a large segment that does not want PVP at all. Brad needs to focus on what he and his team does well, which is not PVP. 


    I get so sick of the fact that so many gamers equate sandbox to mean full loot rights open world pvp ONLY.

    EQ was absolutely a sandbox.  Nobody was telling you where to go, what mobs to kill, etc. No quest givers telling you to go talk to the guy in the next town to get your next heap of "quests".

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 287
    DMKano said:
    Krimzin said:
    The biggest thing I think Pantheon is going to bring back is the Group Centric style of play. In EQ, you had to have a group no matter what you did unless you were a kiting class. You really got to know people on your server, the good and the bad. It made reputation a big part of the game. With Pantheon not allowing name changes, reputation will once again matter. Its going to be a long 2017 waiting but atleast we know it is coming.

    The thing is there were quite a few classes that could solo fine:

    Druids, Shamans, Bards, Necros, Mages - later game Wizards and Chanters, also Rangers, SKs and Pallies

    I played a bard in vanilla and was swarm kiting before this mechanic was even known or named - very few players knew about how to play to the full potential of classes - heck enchanters were misunderstood for th first 3-6 months.

    I think the general population not really knowing the mechanics on how to play their classes or how to even gear up correctly made a huge impact on why EQ1 was viewed so group-centric.

    Heck look at project 1999 today - most players solo there because everything is known.



    i think Pantheon will face the same challenge - after 17 years the mechanics on how to play "optimally" a game like EQ1 is very well known.

    So Pantheon will be played very differently at launch than EQ1 vanilla was - on day 1 there will be a full optimal leveling and gearing guide for every class, as well as solo guides etc...

    Even without any guids, the general familiarity on how to play MMORPGs is ingrained in players after 10+ years of playing.

    Even if Pantheon is even harder than Vanilla EQ1 - top players will rip through content in a matter of weeks. It took people months even years to get there in EQ1. Won't happen in Pantheon like that at all.

    The mystery of wondering around on a server where everyone was a complete noob to "online MMORPG" genre is gone forever.

    Yeah you could solo "some" content in early EQ, it was not much fun but you could certainly do it. If you wanted to do dungeons where the "Loot" was at, then most classes needed a group. My bard could quad kite and all that but to me it was not fun. I was the first level 50 bard on my server and 99+% of my game play was in groups.
      My bard did go through a lot of changes early in EQ and of course half his skills didn't function correctly or at all for months after release. I do remember early on when bards could mez as well if not better than enchanters but that didn't last long.

     If Pantheon just makes it better and more fun to group then I be happy.
    Oh and I hope they have all or at least most of the class skills functioning unlike early EQ.
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    Thing is a lot of the PVP players do not want to play with each other...  What they want is to gank people who are lousy at or disinterested in PVP. 

  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    centkin said:
    Thing is a lot of the PVP players do not want to play with each other...  What they want is to gank people who are lousy at or disinterested in PVP. 

    I do not play PvP, but I wonder how many people actually gank others.  I could see where a small minority could develop a big presence (and drive a lot of people out of a game).

    ... I don't know - I don't play PvP...
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,141
    People don't get scared in MMO's anymore.  You create your character, then push three buttons playing solo to max level in 2 days leaving a trail of death behind you.  From there its just insta Que mulit-server dungeon finders while dancing on mailboxes and crafting from bags..  Now that's my kind of experience, don't you dare go messing with a successful formula!!
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I like the feeling of scared and challenging but the EQ franchise did not do combat or even thee scary feeling too well.

    They used two primary ideals to deliver their combat..
    1 A boss that was so ridiculous it was all about your gear and not the skills of the players.
    2 They would simply fill a room and have 6-20 mobs run at you all at the same time like they were on a rope or something.

    I don't want to have some labeled "tier 1"gear to be able to tank a Boss and i don't want AI on a rope and i don't want rooms filled with 20 mobs for no reason other than to fill a room with 20 mobs.I want Ai to look and act realistic not like computer code which was one of my bigger peeves in VG which tells me the team did not learn anything from EQ1.

    I want good quality map design/layouts and i want good quality AI along with good spell and ability selections that allow ME the player to determine the outcome and not my gear.

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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I remember as a new player hearing people shout across the zone "Thanks Verant!" They did not seem entirely sincere in their expressions of gratitude. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    centkin said:
    Thing is a lot of the PVP players do not want to play with each other...  What they want is to gank people who are lousy at or disinterested in PVP. 
    Yeah, MMO PvP generally make things very easy for that kind of PvPer but it also leads to most PvP servers being far less populated then the PvE servers.

    I have zero interest in Pantheons PvP, the game is clearly built for PvE and other games like Crowfall, CU and Shards all seems to have more interesting ideas there. Pantheons thing is PvE and that is what will make or break the game.

    And what I seen so far of the PvE seems to be good, so screw the PvP. I don't know why so many think a game must have PvP, it doesn't. If it have PvP it should be good PvP so here I see it as a wasted effort the devs can put into PvE instead. The more focused a MMO is towards gear the worse is usually the PvP.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I played EQ PvP for a while.  I had quite a bit of fun doing it.  Things were kind of different back then in PvP.

    For starters, you could actually talk to your opponents on other teams.  This actually was better for the servers, imo.  You weren't just slaughtering nameless unknowns, but you had rivals and often respectful relationships with your opponents.
    I had some pretty interesting conversations with opposing players after a fight, for instance.  There was sportsmanship and mutual respect for your fellows back then.

    There were griefers back then.  There always were since the very old days, but they were fewer in number -- largely thanks to the ability to communicate with enemies, imho.  Communication with rivals creates an avenue of diplomacy. 
    This is where the later games went wrong, I feel.  Once you severed communication, open world PvP became nothing more than slaughtering red names as if they were NPCs -- in other words, a "gankfest".

    Overall point being, there's a massive divide between "PvP players" and "griefers" in the same way that there is a massive divide between "regular PvE players" and "hardcore raiders".
    -------------------------------------------

    More on point:
    Regardless of how they implement PvP here, anyone who is following Pantheon for its PvP is following the wrong game.

    Even though EQ PvP was a blast for a while, it was only played so much because there was nothing else.  As soon as other options appeared, there was a mass exodus.  The game simply wasn't focused on PvP, and neither will be Pantheon.

    I was on Sullon Zek when DAoC launched, for instance.  Half the server moved on as soon as DAoC became a thing.  The majority of the remnants left after AAs and one-shot killing were introduced.
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